Ancestry of John, 2nd Lord Segrave (was Re: Ancestry of Sir

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Ancestry of John, 2nd Lord Segrave (was Re: Ancestry of Sir

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 jan 2006 03:46:01

Monday, 16 January, 2006


Dear Merilyn, Doug, Mike, et al.,

Thanks for your kind words.

By way of making amends for the Segrave error committed in the prior
thread, following is the Segrave descent from their earliest (thus far
confirmed) ancestor Hereward de Segrave down to John, 2nd Lord Segrave,
and his siblings.

Now if there's any chance of sorting out the early generations of
this family, with a probable Anglo-Saxon strain (the name Hereward
sticks out like an overcooked banger) to boot, that would be of great
interest.

Cheers,

John *




1 Hereward de Segrave
----------------------------------------

of Segrave, co. Leicester[1]

a sale of land (prob. in Segrave, Leics.) by Roger de Segrave to Hereward
de Segrave was confirmed by Herbert, son of Roger.
[Farrer, HKF II:71 (cites Harl. MS. 4748, f. 9d)[2] ]

Children: Gilbert (-<1202)


1.1 Gilbert de Segrave
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1202[1]

of Segrave, co. Leicester

held 1 virgate of land in Rearsby, co. Leics. of Ralph the Chamberlain,
'which William Butiler held of Gilbert for 25d. rent'
(Farrer, HKF II:73, citing Harl. 4748, f. 12)[2]

'Gilbert de Segrave is named as tenant of land in the town of Leicester
in a fine of 1197. This is probably the Gilbert son of Hereward de
Segrave to whom Herbert son of Roger de Segrave gave 1 virgate in
Seagrave across the brook, together with confirmation of a sale made
by the said Roger to Hereward.' [Farrer, HKF II:71 (cites Feet of F.
(Pipe R. Soc. xx), 133, and Harl. MS. 4748, f. 9d[2]]
______________________________

said to have held 1/2 knight's fee of William, Earl of Warwick,
1166[1] (see also Farrer, HKF II:71)[2]. This was probably a near
relation and not the father of Stephen de Segrave.
______________________________

probably the 'Gilbert Segrave' who witnessed the gift of Thomas
Dispensator, 'son of Galfridus Dispensator' of ten bovates in Burton
to Garendon priory[3]

Children: Thomas de Segrave, of Segrave
Stephen (-1241)


1.1.1a Stephen de Segrave*
----------------------------------------
Death: 1241, Leicester Abbey (d. a monk)[1],[4]

of Segrave, co. Leicester
younger son

' Stephen de Sedgrave ', witness to grant dated 1199-1216, between Hugh
de Anvers and Hugh de Chaucomb of 5 virgates of land in Magna Dalby of
the fee of Ralph Basset ' [SC255, Berkeley Castle Muniments, courtesy
A2A, Berkeley Castle Muniments: Berkeley Castle Muniments [BCM/D],
BCM/D/6/1/1[5]]
_______________________________________

gift of land in Brinklow, co. Warwicks. from Robert de Stuteville
to Stephen de Segrave, before Nov 1213[6] and confirmation of same by
Hugh Wake, bef. 1240:
' Confirmation with warranty from Hugh Wak' to Stephen de Segrave of
all that land which he has in Bringelawe by the gift of Robert de
Stutevill' with all its appurtenances, to hold for the service of
one knight's fee.
Witnesses: John Gubaud, John de Riperia, William de Sancto Edmundo,
Roger de Siferwast, Robert de Wauton', Roger de Turkilby, Walter
Merchet and others.
Tag, seal missing. Endorsed: i) Brinkelawe de confirmacione
Hugonis Wake ' - A2A, Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office:
Gregory of Stivichall [DR10/1 - DR10/467], [DR10/46 ][5]

record of the original grant of the manor of Brinklow, co.
Warwicks. (dated 'before 1240'):

' Gift with warranty from Robert de Stutevill' to Stephen de
Segrave for his homage and service, of all his land of Bringelawe
with appurtenances namely whatsoever he had in the said Manor
[of Brinklow] without retaining anything; to hold to the same
Stephen and his heirs for ever by service of one knight's fee;
and for this the said Stephen gives 40 pounds.
Witnesses: William de Stutevill', John de Stutevill', Robert
Paselewe, John de Riperia, William de Sancto Edmundo, Roger
de Siferwast, Roger de Turkilby, Walter Merchet and others.
[Seal on tag: circular, white, varnished. Arms, Barry a lion
rampant. Legend: S. ROBERTI DE S[TU]TEVILL'.]
[Endorsed: i) Brinkelawe de dono Roberti de Stutovill' [contemp]
ii) Comitatus Warr'; iii) Lorde Segrave] [AG]
- A2A, Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office: Gregory of
Stivichall [DR10/1 - DR10/467], Warwickshire [DR 10/45][5]

~ the appearance of many of the same names in the original
grant, and the confirmation by Hugh Wake, indicates the
confirmation most likely occurred shortly after the
original grant and not as late as 'say 1240'.
________________________________________


had custody of the castle of Sauvey, 29 June 1220 and of the counties
of Essex and Hertfordshire, 16 Nov 1220[1]

had a gift of land in Cotes, co. Leics. from 'Ellis son of Anketil
(of Prestwold)', (Farrer, HKF II:70, citing Harl. MS. 4748, f. 13)[2]

purchased manor of Bretby, co. Derby from Ranulf, Earl of Chester[4]

' CALUDON was not among the chapelries of the Coventry district
mentioned in the 12th century, and was probably a comparatively late
settlement. It was granted by Ranulf de Blundeville, Earl of Chester,
to Stephen de Segrave (d. 1241) at the end of the 12th century.
(Footnote 50) It was called a manor in 1239, (Footnote 51) and described
as a quarter-fee in 1275. (Footnote 52) ' [A History of the County of
Warwick: Volume VIII:119-124[7], cites (50): Dugdale, Warws. 128; corpn.
deeds; E 164/21 f. 57. (51): Cal. Papal Regs, i. 184.
(52): Cal. Inq. p.m. ii, p. 85.]

had a grant from Warin, son of Warin fitz Fulcher (grandson of Ivo de
Alspath) ' of all his land which he held in Allespathe,with the homage,
rents and services of freemen and villeins, etc., to hold of the said
Warin,..' dated as 'before 1241'[8]

had a charter dated 1 May 24 Hen III [1240],
' of Henry, kind of England, lord of Ireland, duke of Normandy and
Aquitaine and count of Anjou, granting to Stephen de Segrave a market
at his manor of Brinkelawe, to be held weekly on Tuesday, unless
this should be to the injury of neighbouring markets.
Witnesses: Hugh de Vinon', Geoffrey 'Dispensario', John son of
Geoffrey, John de Plesset', Geoffrey de Cauz, Robert de
Mucegros and others.
[Seal on cord of woven silk: a fine impression of the obverse of the
great seal of Henry III, slightly damaged around the edge]
- A2A, Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office: Gregory of
Stivichall [DR10/1 - DR10/467], Warwickshire [DR10/47][5]

Chief Justice, 1229 [jointly governed England with the Chancellor,
Bishop of Chichester when the King and Hubert de Burgh left for
France, 28 April 1230]

Justiciar of England on the fall of Hubert de Burgh, 8 Aug 1232
received custody of the castle of Dover and the Tower of London
reproached, and removed from the Council and Justiciarship 1234;
received back into the King's favour, 2 Feb 1234/35[1]

stated to have resigned his lands and retired a monk, at Leicester[4]

made a gift, by grant recorded ca. 1235:

' Gift with warranty from Stephen de Segrave to the Abbot and monks
of Stanle, in fee farm, of all his land of Byricoth' with the wood
and capital mansion and with the men, rents, services, meadows,
pastures, fisheries, quarries and all other appurtenances; to hold
the same of the said Stephen rendering annually 100 shillings of
silver (2 terms), for all service and secular demand saving foreign
service.
Witnesses: Walter de Dayvill', Thomas de Daivill' his brother,
William de Sancto Eadmundo, William de Esseshov, Geoffrey de
Staverton', William de Port, John de Stanl', Thomas de
Finham, Thomas de Cubinton', Henry de Cubintun' and many
others.
[Endorsed: i) Stephani de Segrave ii) Byrycote pro presentacione
monachi [AG]]
- A2A, Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office: Gregory of
Stivichall [DR10/1 - DR10/467], Warwickshire [DR 10/14]

further, a grant of lands in Alspath, co. Warwicks. from Warin fitz
Warin, before 1241:
' Gift with warranty from Warin son of Warin son of Fulcher to
Stephen de Segrave for homage and service of all his land which he
held in Allespathe,with the homage, rents and services of freemen
and villeins, etc., to hold of the said Warin, rendering to the
chief lord the customary services and to Warin annually a pair of
white gloves or one penny at Michaelmas; for which the said Stephen
gives 40 marks.' - A2A, 'Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records
Office: Gregory of Stivichall [DR10/468 - DR10/970], DOCUMENTS OF
TITLE, DEEDS AND PAPERS, Warwickshire: Meriden (Alspath)[ DR10/528 ][5]

he m. 1stly Rohese le Despenser,
2ndly Ida de Hastings

Spouse: Rohese le Despenser[1] [1st wife]
Father: Thomas le Despenser (-ca1207)
Mother: [presumably] 'Recuara'
Marr: bef 1208[1]

Children: John (-<1230)
Gilbert (-<1254)


1.1.1a.1 John de Segrave
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 28 Nov 1230, d.v.p.[1],[9]

fine, probably ca. 28 Oct 1230, by father Stephen de Segrave for
the marriage of 'Emme de Cauz q fuit ux Joh'is de Sedg've'
[Excerpta e Rotulis Finium I:204][9],[1]

Spouse: Emma de Cauz[1]
Father: Roger de Cauz, of Water Eaton, co. Bucks and Eaton Grey, co. Wilts
Mother: Nichole de Leigh
Marr: bef Mar 1227[5]


1.1.1a.2 Gilbert de Segrave
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 8 Oct 1254, Pons, Poitou[1],[10]

of Segrave, Sileby, Mountsorrel, Cold Overton and Diseworth, co. Leics.,
Bretby, Coton-in-the-Elms, Linton and Rosliston, co. Derbys. and
Caludon and Kineton, co. Warwicks.

received grant of the manor and soke of Horncastle, 19 Aug 1233 and of
the land of Richard Marshal in Burton, co. Northampton 27 Nov 1233 for
his maintenance in the King's service[1]

' Ellis son of Anketil (of Prestwold) gave land in Cotes to Stephen de
Segrave. About 1249-52 Thomas Putrell held in Hoton 4 bovates of the
serjeanty of Ranulf de Jorz and Gilbert de Segrave 2 bovates of the
same; the abbot of Garendon had a vaccary and wood called 'Haliwelle
Hawe' of the said fee, equivalent to 2 virgates. ' [HKF II:70, cites
Harl. MS. 4748, f. 13; also Testa de Nevill, 88b[2] ]

captured in Poitou (despite having a safe-conduct from King Louis IX),
d. in prison[11]

~ he d. 6 Nov 1254, acc. to Brit. Mus. MS. Add. 5758, f. 21[10]

1st husband of Amabil de Chaucombe

Spouse: Amabil de Chaucombe
Father: Robert de Chaucombe, of Chaucombe, Northants. and Rotherby,
co. Leics.
Mother: Juliana de Cornhill
Marr: bef 30 Sep 1231[1]

Children: Alice
Nicholas (<1238-<1295)


1.1.1a.2.1 Alice de Segrave
----------------------------------------

cf. DNB ['Gilbert de Segrave'[11]]

Spouse: William Mauduit, 8th Earl of Warwick
Death: 8 Jan 1267, d.s.p.[1]
Father: William Mauduit (-<1256)
Mother: Alice de Newburgh (-<1263)


1.1.1a.2.2 Nicholas de Segrave
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 12 Nov 1295[1]
Birth: bef 17 Dec 1238[1],[2]
Burial: Chaucombe Priory, Northants.
Occ: Lord Segrave

of Segrave, co. Leicester and Chaucombe, co. Northants

supporter of de Montfort against the King; commanded the Londoners at
the Battle of Lewes, 14 May 1264
wounded and captured at the Battle of Evesham, 4 Aug 1265, and his lands
granted to Edmund of Lancaster[1]
in league with the Earl of Gloucester and still in rebellion Apr 1267,
but pardoned and admitted into the King's peace 1 Jul 1267[12]

' Nicholas de Sedgrave ', one of the knights (together with Richard de
Brus and Thomas de Clare) who, at Westminster on 10 May
1270, received
' Protection with clause volumus, for four years from Easter, for Robert
de Ufford, crusader, who is going with the king and with Edward the
king's son to the Holy Land. ' [CPR 1267-1272, p. 479, m.15d[13]]

possibly an adherent of Prince Edward (later Edward I) during the
Crusade of 1270

served King Edward as a household knight[12]

summoned to Parliament on 24 June 1295 by writ directed 'Nich(ola)s
de Segrave seniori', whereby held to have become Lord Segrave[1]

Spouse: Maud [conjectured to have been Maud de Lucy] [1]

Children: Sir John, 2nd Lord Segrave
Nicholas, Lord Segrave (of Stowe)
Henry, of North Piddle
Eleanor, m. Alan la Zouche
Gilbert, Bishop of London
Amabel, m. John du Plessy, heir of Hook Norton
Geoffrey, of Wisbech, co. Cambs.
Simon, of Dunstall, co. Lincs.



1. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 - [microprint, 1982
(Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland
Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
2. William Farrer, Litt.D., "Honors and Knights' Fees," London:
Spottiswoode, Ballantyne & Co., Ltd., 1924 (3 vols.), Vol I:
Vol II: Chester; Huntingdon, Vol III: Arundel, Eudes the Sewer,
Warenne.
3. John Nichols, F.S.A., "The History and Antiquities of the County
of Leicester," London: Printed By and For John Nichols, 1795,
Vol. III, part 2: 1804.
4. "Old Halls of Derbyshire,"
http://www.usigs.org/library/books/uk/d ... Tilly1892/
5. "Access to Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/
6. Rosie Bevan, "Ancestry of Margery de Stuteville," August 8, 2002,
paper copy: library of John P. Ravilious, citations from Rosie
Bevan : rbevan@paradise.net.nz, cites Clay, Early Yorkshire
Charters; Sanders, English Baronies; K.Keats-Rohan, Domesday
Descendants.
7. W.B. Stephens (Editor), "Victoria County History of Oxfordshire,"
1969, Vol. VIII: The City of Coventry The outlying parts of
Coventry: Wyken and Caludon (pp. 119-124), available through
British History Online,
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=16020
8. "Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs to 1516,"
http://www.histparl.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/
9. Charles Roberts, ed., "Excerpta ex Rotulis Finium," The Commissioners
of the Public Records of the Kingdom, Vol I (1216-1246), 1835, full
title: Excerpta e Rotulis Finium in Turri Londinensi asservatis,
Henrico Tertio Rege, A.D. 1216-1272.
10. Rosie Bevan, "Chacombe," 26 May 2004, provides .jpg image of
details of papers in the British Museum, formerly belonging to
John Anstis, Esq., Garter King of Arms, 'written by a herald in
the time of Henry the Eighth.', email rbevan@paradise.net.nz.
11. "Gilbert de Segrave [article]," Dictionary of National Biography,
Oxford Univ. Press, p. 1136 : Gilbert de Segrave.
12. "Edward I," Michael Prestwich, New Haven: Yale University Press,
1997 [in England, originally 1988 -Methuen], Yale English Monarchs
series.
13. "Calendar of the Patent Rolls," preserved in the Public Record
Office, London: Printed for His Majesty's Stationery Office by the
Hereford Times Co., Ltd., 1910, (Henry III, A.D. 1258-1266),
p. 435, grant to Richard de Brus of the custody of the heir of
Roger de Tony, (Henry III, A.D. 1267-1272), (Richard II, A.D.
1377-1381), Vol. 1, p. 524, presentation to the church of
Southpole, 3 July 1380, (Richard II, A.D. 1391-1396), Vol. V,
p. 3, election of Sibyl de Montagu as prioress of Amesbury,
(Richard II, A.D. 1396-1399), Vol. VI, p. 34, (Henry IV, A.D.
1399-1401), Vol. I, pp. 268-9, controversy re: Sibyl de Montagu,
prioress of Amesbury, (Henry VII, A.D. 1485 - 1494), Vol. 1,
pp. 36-37, grant to Robert Skerne, Esq., Vol. 2, p. 52
(commissions of array).


* John P. Ravilious

Douglas Richardson

Re: Ancestry of John, 2nd Lord Segrave (was Re: Ancestry of

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 17 jan 2006 06:15:26

Dear John P. ~

Nice post on the Segrave family. Here are a couple of quick comments
for you.

First,. the person you mention as " Hugh de Vinon' " was actually Hugh
de Vivonne. "Vinon'" is a misreading of his name in the original.

Second, I know of no evidence which suggests that Juliane, wife of
Robert de Chaucombe, was a Cornhill. Her maritagium was in Strubby,
Lincolnshire, which my research indicates was earlier held at least in
part by the baronial Welles family. See my post on the Welles family
dated August 10, 2005 in the archives.

Third, in one place, you refer to "co. Warwicks." This should either
be "co. Warwick" or "Warwickshire." For a list of the preferred
county designations, e.g., Warwickshire, see the GENUKI list at the
following website:

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/#Counties

Fourth, Maud, wife of Nicholas de Segrave (he died 1295) is not
"conjectured" to have been a Lucy. She is specifically called "Maud de
Lucy" in an ancient and apparently accurate Segrave pedigree found in
the records of Chaucombe Priory published by Nichols in his History &
Antiq. of Leicestershire, vol. 3, pt. 1 (1800): 240. I've
"conjectured" that Maud de Lucy was the daughter of Geoffrey de Lucy,
Knt., of Cublington, Buckinghamshire, Dallington and Slapton,
Northamptonshire, and Potsgrove, Bedfordshire, who died in 1272-3. If
so, she would possess royal ancestry through Sir Geoffrey de Lucy's
ancestress, Rohese of Boulogne, wife of Sir Richard de Lucy. I'm
certain with a bit of perspiration, the parentage of Maud de Lucy, wife
of Nicholas de Segrave, can be proven. Women at this rank usually came
with a traceable maritagium.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

John P. Ravilious

Re: Ancestry of John, 2nd Lord Segrave (was Re: Ancestry of

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 19 jan 2006 03:32:30

Dear Doug (et al.),

Thanks for your good post of the other day. I am getting back to
you a bit late, as things non-genealogical do inject themselves more
and more this time of year.

On several of the points you made in your post, most are evident.
In particular, the discussion ongoing I note elsewhere on the subject
of 'com. Warwicks.' vs. 'co.' vs. 'Warwickshire' is one that has been
added to far better than my own responses would have been. I will only
note that my usage of geographical terms/locations is usually drawn
from CP and similar sources, although not rising to the level of 100%
adherence.

As to the matter of Juliane/Juliana, wife of Robert de Chaucombe,
I draw your attention to a thread from May 2005 (copied in part below)
showing her identification as Juliana de Cornhill was drawn from the
A2A site, which cites BL Harl. MS4748,f.22 (an MS. I have not seen, or
seen referred to elsewhere to date). Rosie Bevan kindly posted details
concerning the Cornhills and related families, but while it appears
likely, to date the William de Cornhill identified as father of Juliana
has not been confirmed as being of this family.

Cheers,

John


=======================================

Identification of Juliana, wife of Robert de Chaucombe

Ther...@aol.com
May 13 2005, 9:45 pm show options

Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
From: Ther...@aol.com
Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 02:45:29 +0000 (UTC)
Local: Fri, May 13 2005 9:45 pm
Subject: Identification of Juliana, wife of Robert de Chaucombe


Friday, 13 May, 2005


Hello All,


In prior threads, it was suggested that Juliana, wife of Robert de

Chaucombe (and ancestress of the Lords Segrave and many more besides)
was
possibly of the Dammartin family, or of the de Welles [1].


Rosie noted that Strubby, co. Lincs. was identified as the
maritagium
of Juliana [2]. I have noted that this information, and the final
concord
of 10 April 1239, is to be found on the A2A website [3].
Interestingly,
the introduction prior to this text provides the following
information:


' The holding was granted by William de Cornhill to Robert de
Chaucombe in free marriage with William's daughter Juliana. It
was
then settled on her daughter Milicent Basset, but passed to the
Segraves, and Juliana de Chaucombe quitclaimed her rights to
Nicholas de Segrave. By 1325 it had been alienated, as a note
in the Segrave Cartulary confirms. [BL Harl. MS4748,f.22, See
BCM/D/6 Administrative history] ' [4]


A cursory review of A2A and my notes provides no further
illumination
re: this William de Cornhill, or the prior tenure of Strubby. Should
anyone have any further information or documentation, that should lead
us
to further insights concerning this portion of the de Segrave/de
Chaucombe ancestry.


Cheers,


John *


===========================================


Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear John P. ~

Nice post on the Segrave family. Here are a couple of quick comments
for you.


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