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Patricia Junkin

Latin Help Please

Legg inn av Patricia Junkin » 09 jan 2006 23:24:01

Johannes de La Bisse petit Willelmum le Marchant et Estrilda sororem eius ut
nativos et fugitivos suos etc., unde dicunt (error for dicit) quod quidam
Ord(g)arus fuit villanus cuisdam Petri de Talewurth tempore H. Regis, avi
domini regis, et Johannes de la Bisse, avus predicti (altered from idem)
Johannes, emit eundem Ordgarum de predicto Petro. Et de ipso Ordaro
descendit quidam Willelmus, et de Willelmo descendunt isti Willelmus et
Estrilda et quidam Richardus. Set nullam producit sectam nec aliquem de
parenteia ipsius Ordgari.
Post venerunt et concordati sunt per licenciam; et est concordia talis, quod
Johannes quietos clamat eos imperpetuum pro xx s.

I am in question on the use of "nativos" and "fugitivos" and who this Ordgar
might have been. I find an Ordgar, earl of Devon in 961 but this is much
later

This is taken from the 1235 Surrey Eyre

Thank you for any help.

Pat

Chris Phillips

Re: Latin Help Please

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 10 jan 2006 00:03:23

Patricia Junkin wrote:
Johannes de La Bisse petit Willelmum le Marchant et Estrilda sororem eius
ut
nativos et fugitivos suos etc., unde dicunt (error for dicit) quod quidam
Ord(g)arus fuit villanus cuisdam Petri de Talewurth tempore H. Regis, avi
domini regis, et Johannes de la Bisse, avus predicti (altered from idem)
Johannes, emit eundem Ordgarum de predicto Petro. Et de ipso Ordaro
descendit quidam Willelmus, et de Willelmo descendunt isti Willelmus et
Estrilda et quidam Richardus. Set nullam producit sectam nec aliquem de
parenteia ipsius Ordgari.
Post venerunt et concordati sunt per licenciam; et est concordia talis,
quod
Johannes quietos clamat eos imperpetuum pro xx s.

I am in question on the use of "nativos" and "fugitivos" and who this
Ordgar
might have been. I find an Ordgar, earl of Devon in 961 but this is much
later


A "native" was an unfree tenant, and I presume in this context a "fugitive"
would be a tenant who had left the manor without permission.

John is claiming that a certain Ordgar was a villein of a certain Peter de
Talewurth in the time of King Henry [II], and that John de la Bisse, his
(John's) grandfather had bought Ordgar from Peter. And that from Ordgar
descended a certain William, and from William descended William (le
Marchant) and Estrilda and a certain Richard. Afterwards John agreed to drop
his claim for a payment of 20 shillings.

Chris Phillips

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Latin Help Please

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 10 jan 2006 15:46:55

In article <dpuq5s$crk$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>,
"Chris Phillips" <cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk> wrote:

Patricia Junkin wrote:
Johannes de La Bisse petit Willelmum le Marchant et Estrilda sororem eius
ut
nativos et fugitivos suos etc., unde dicunt (error for dicit) quod quidam
Ord(g)arus fuit villanus cuisdam Petri de Talewurth tempore H. Regis, avi
domini regis, et Johannes de la Bisse, avus predicti (altered from idem)
Johannes, emit eundem Ordgarum de predicto Petro. Et de ipso Ordaro
descendit quidam Willelmus, et de Willelmo descendunt isti Willelmus et
Estrilda et quidam Richardus. Set nullam producit sectam nec aliquem de
parenteia ipsius Ordgari.
Post venerunt et concordati sunt per licenciam; et est concordia talis,
quod
Johannes quietos clamat eos imperpetuum pro xx s.

I am in question on the use of "nativos" and "fugitivos" and who this
Ordgar
might have been. I find an Ordgar, earl of Devon in 961 but this is much
later


A "native" was an unfree tenant, and I presume in this context a "fugitive"
would be a tenant who had left the manor without permission.

John is claiming that a certain Ordgar was a villein of a certain Peter de
Talewurth in the time of King Henry [II], and that John de la Bisse, his
(John's) grandfather had bought Ordgar from Peter. And that from Ordgar
descended a certain William, and from William descended William (le
Marchant) and Estrilda and a certain Richard. Afterwards John agreed to drop
his claim for a payment of 20 shillings.

Chris is right; 'nativus' is used here for 'villein' or serf, and the
assumption was that a serf who denied his status was by definition a
fugutive from his manorial master. This type of suit--to force
recognition of the servile status of one's villein--is relatively common
in the curia regis rolls from about 1200 onward. This suit notes that
the claimant lost because he failed to produce any descendants of the
alleged Ordgar ("set nullam producit sectam nec aliquem de parenteia
ipsius Ordgari") who were also villeins. These suits were proved by
producing a group of kin, called a "secta," who acknowledged their
villein status, serving essentially both as witnesses and as exhibits
(the fact that they were villeins, and kin to the defendant, made them
material evidence). Often defendants would produce other free kin to
attempt to reject the claim, or would deny that the claimant's 'secta'
were kin to the defendant, or would admit kinship but deny that the
witnesses' villeinage was hereditary in the defendant's own line as
well. Therefore these villeinage suits are full of micro-genealogies of
serfs--a very interesting legal use of genealogical information. Paul
Hyams wrote a good article on this type of suit in the English
Historical Review for around 1973; I also have a short article on them,
forthcoming in this spring's volume of the Haskins Society Journal.

There has been no systematic study of the onomastics, but the names of
villeins culled from these suits would probably show a far higher
incidence of old Anglo-Saxon names than typical 13th-century suits and
charters (which would concern freemen and propertyholders), so it is not
surprising that the alleged villein ancestor of this suit, Ordgar, has
the same name as a 10th-century Saxon earl. But here the villein
Ordgar's grandson is called 'William the merchant', suggesting a bit of
a social rise, as well as a turning away from Saxon anthroponymy. I'm
not so sure about the name of his sister Estrilda.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm

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