Dear Newsgroup ~
According to Blomfield's Norfolk (vol. x, pg. 265), Hubert de Burgh,
Earl of Kent, was the son of Reyner de Burgh (probably of Burgh, near
Yarmouth), by Joan, one of the three daughters and coheirs of John, son
of Sir William Punchard (by Alice, daughter and coheiress of Fulk
d'Oyry, lord of Gedney).
In support of this statement, we may note that Geoffrey de Burgh,
Bishop of Ely, brother of Earl Hubert de Burgh, was styled "nepos" of
Alice Pouchard, wife of Sir Robert de Nerford, daughter and heiress of
John Pouchard, son of Sir William Pouchard in the foundation history of
Creake Abbey [Reference: A.L. Bedingfield, ed., A Cartulary of Creake
Abbey (Norfolk Rec. Soc. 35) (1966): 1-2]. However, since the word
"nepos" in this time period can mean near male kinsman just as easily
as it does nephew, further evidence is needed before the correct
meaning of the word can be established.
The answer to this question is found in Curia Regis Rolls, 6 (1932):
199-200, which covers a lawsuit dated Hilary Term, 13 John [1212],
between Philip Gulafre plaintiff and Richard de Belhouse and Maud his
wife regarding two carucates of land with appurtenances in Tuddenham,
Norfolk. According to the lawsuit, Richard de Belhouse for himself and
his wife defended their right to the property, stating that it was
Maud's share of the inheritance of her father, John "Poucard." Richard
further stated that his wife, Maud, had a sister, Alice, wife of Robert
de Nerford, who had other land ["aliam terrum"] as her share of the
inheritance. Philip Gulafre by his attorney said that after the lands
of John Poucard were parted between his daughters, that Ita, their
mother, held the land in dower. After her death, Robert Tregoz who
held the fee of the lord king seised the property in his hand.
As we see above, John Pouchard and his wife, Itta, had two daughters
and co-heiresses, Maud, wife of Richard de Belhouse, and Alice, wife of
Robert de Nerford. No mention is made of a third daughter and
co-heiress. As such, it would appear the Blomfield incorrectly stated
that there was a third co-heiresss, Joan, who married Reyner de Burgh.
Who then was Reyner de Burgh and his wife, Joan? It appears that
Blomfield latched onto a Burgh couple who lived in Earl Hubert de
Burgh's own time and turned them into Earl Hubert's parents. The
Genealogist n.s. vol. 10 gives a pedigree from the Plea Rolls dated
Hilary term 8 Edward III [1335]. This lawsuit sets forth the
descendants of Fulk d'Oyry, lord of Gedney, Lincolnshire, who was
stated to be living in the time of King Henry III. According to the
pedigree, Fulk de Oyry had three daughters and co-heiresses, Alice,
Ela, and Emytine, all of whom had issue. The daughter, Alice, in turn
had three daughters, among them Joan, wife of Reyner de Burgh, who was
living in 35 Henry III [1250-1251]. Joan de Burgh's representative in
1335 is further identified as her grandson, Robert Burgilioun [sic].
Elsewhere, I find that the individual who heads the pedigree, Fulk
d'Oyry, was living in 1227, and that his co-heirs in 1281 were Walter
le Burgyllon (then a minor), Peter de Goushill, and Simon le Constable
[see the online resource, Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs to 1516:
Lincolnshire, at the following weblink:
http://www.history.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/lincs.html#Hol]. Thus, it would
appear that Earl Hubert de Burgh had no connection whatsoever with the
family of Fulk de Oyry, of Gedney, Lincolnshire, as alleged by
Blomfield.
Given the above information, it appears that Earl Hubert de Burgh and
his brother, Bishop Godfrey, were near kinsmen but not nephews to Alice
Pouchard, wife of Sir Robert de Nerford. Earl Hubert surely knew Alice
Pouchard well, however, as I show she held the manor of Wreningham,
Norfolk in 1232-1233 of the honour of Wormegay [Reference; Book of
Fees, 2 (1923): 1466]. The honour of Wormegay was then in the
possession of Earl Hubert de Burgh, by curtesy of England, he having
previously married the heiress of the honour, Beatrice de Warenne, as
his first wife.
Elsewhere, it has been stated that Earl Hubert de Burgh gave the
advowson of Oulton, Norfolk to Walsingham for the soul of Alice his
mother who was buried in Walsingham church [Reference: Complete
Peerage, 7 (1929): 133, footnote a]. I believe I have seen in
Blomfield a competing statement that it was Earl Hubert de Burgh's
wife, Alice (not his mother), who was buried at Walsingham. That Alice
was Earl Hubert's mother, not his wife, is proven by an article in
English Historical Review, 19 (1904): 707-711, which cites a passage
in Dunstable Annals (Ann. Mon. iii. 28), which refers to Hubert de
Burgh's 2nd and 3rd wives:
"Super divortio vero tertiae uxoris suae, scilicet filiae regis
Scotiae, conventus, super eo quod erat consanguinea secundae uxoris
suae, scilicet comitissae Gloverniae," etc.
Here we are informed by Dunstable Annals that Earl Hubert de Burgh's
2nd wife, [Isabel], Countess of Gloucester, was near kin to his 3rd
wife, [Margaret], the daughter of the King of Scotland. A similar
statement is apparently made in Matthew Paris, Chron. Maj., vol. vi,
pg. 71, which source is cited by Complete Peerage, 5 (1926): 691,
footnote h (sub Gloucester). Although Hubert de Burgh denied
knowledge of their kinship, the two women were in fact closely related
in the 3rd degree of kinship (that is, second cousins) by virtue of
common descent from Isabel de Vermandois.
Inasmuch as we have a full record of Earl Hubert de Burgh's three
wives, Beatrice de Warenne, Isabel of Gloucester, and Margaret of
Scotland, the last of whom survived him, that leaves no place for
another wife, Alice. Consequently, it would appear that the Alice
buried at Walsingham, Norfolk was his mother as stated in the
Walsingham Cartulary.
Given the gross misstatements of Blomfield in the matter of the
parentage and ancestry of Earl Hubert de Burgh, this should give us all
pause before accepting statements of such antiquarians at face value
without checking the accuracy of their words.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Hubert de Burgh's alleged Pouchard ancestry
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Hubert de Burgh's alleged Pouchard ancestry
Douglas Richardson wrote:
FWIW, a second pedigree derived from De Banco, Easter, 7 Edw III, gives
the third daughter as "Emecina", while the de Burgo heir appears as
"Robert le Burguyllon".
The plea you summarize (at least as it appears in Lincs N&Q) is clearly
flawed. The De Banco pedigree (correctly) gives the heir of the Goushill
line as Margaret Goushill (b. 1294), who had married Philip le
Despencer, while in your 8 Ed III Coram Rege, the king is said to be
suing as guardian of _Margaret's father_, "Ralph (under age, and in ward
to the King)". This is just plain wrong. Even Margaret's son Philip
would have achieved his majority by 1335 (barely, but then Margaret was
still living, so he would not have been vested with the claim anyhow).
It is unclear for what minor Rex was acting as guardian, but it wasn't
her father Walter de Goushill.
taf
Who then was Reyner de Burgh and his wife, Joan? It appears that
Blomfield latched onto a Burgh couple who lived in Earl Hubert de
Burgh's own time and turned them into Earl Hubert's parents. The
Genealogist n.s. vol. 10 gives a pedigree from the Plea Rolls dated
Hilary term 8 Edward III [1335]. This lawsuit sets forth the
descendants of Fulk d'Oyry, lord of Gedney, Lincolnshire, who was
stated to be living in the time of King Henry III. According to the
pedigree, Fulk de Oyry had three daughters and co-heiresses, Alice,
Ela, and Emytine, all of whom had issue. The daughter, Alice, in turn
had three daughters, among them Joan, wife of Reyner de Burgh, who was
living in 35 Henry III [1250-1251]. Joan de Burgh's representative in
1335 is further identified as her grandson, Robert Burgilioun [sic].
Elsewhere, I find that the individual who heads the pedigree, Fulk
d'Oyry, was living in 1227, and that his co-heirs in 1281 were Walter
le Burgyllon (then a minor), Peter de Goushill, and Simon le Constable
[see the online resource, Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs to 1516:
Lincolnshire, at the following weblink:
http://www.history.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/lincs.html#Hol].
FWIW, a second pedigree derived from De Banco, Easter, 7 Edw III, gives
the third daughter as "Emecina", while the de Burgo heir appears as
"Robert le Burguyllon".
The plea you summarize (at least as it appears in Lincs N&Q) is clearly
flawed. The De Banco pedigree (correctly) gives the heir of the Goushill
line as Margaret Goushill (b. 1294), who had married Philip le
Despencer, while in your 8 Ed III Coram Rege, the king is said to be
suing as guardian of _Margaret's father_, "Ralph (under age, and in ward
to the King)". This is just plain wrong. Even Margaret's son Philip
would have achieved his majority by 1335 (barely, but then Margaret was
still living, so he would not have been vested with the claim anyhow).
It is unclear for what minor Rex was acting as guardian, but it wasn't
her father Walter de Goushill.
taf
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Hubert de Burgh's alleged Pouchard ancestry
Dear Newsgroup ~
In an earlier post, we determined that Earl Hubert de Burgh (died 1243)
was kinsman (not nephew) of Alice Pouchard, wife of Sir Robert de
Nerford, and daughter and co-heiress of John Pouchard, of Tuddenham,
Norfolk, by his wife, Itta.
Besides Tuddenham and Brunham, Norfolk, it appear that Wreningham,
Norfolk was another Pouchard family property. I find that Lady Alice
(Pouchard) de Nerford gave a 1/2 share in the advowson of that place to
Creake Abbey in the period, 1225-1230 [Reference: Bedingfield, ed., A
Cartulary of Creake Abbey (Norfolk Rec. Soc. 35) (1966): 4].
Presumably the other half share of the advowson was inherited by
Alice's sister, Maud (Pouchard) de Belhouse. The source, Book of Fees,
shows that Alice (Pouchard) de Nerford held 1 knight's fee in
Wreningham, Norfolk in 1232-1233, and that her son, Richard de Nerford,
held 1/2 knight's fee in this place in 1242-1243 [Reference: Book of
Fees, 2 (1923): 905, 1466]. Both Alice Pouchard and her son, Sir
Richard de Nerford, held Wreningham under the honour of Wormegay, which
was held in this time period by Earl Hubert de Burgh in right of his
1st wife, Beatrice de Warenne.
Interestingly, there is a rather complete record of later Norfolk
manorial lords dated 1316, which was published in 1952 in Norfolk
Archaeology, vol. 30. This list shows the following major land owners
at Wreningham (with Nayland), Norfolk in 1316 to be:
Sir John de Thorp
Prior of Wymundham
Richard de Belhous
Emma de la Penne
Abbot of Crek
Presumably the Abbot of Creake obtained his interest in Wreningham,
Norfolk by gift from Lady Alice (Pouchard) de Nerford. As we can see,
the Nerford interest in Wreningham has seemingly disappeared by 1316.
The interest of Alice Pouchard's sister and co-heiress, Maud de
Belhouse, in Wreningham is presumably represented in 1316 by a certain
Richard de Belhous.
Elsewhere, I find that Sir John de Burgh (son and heir of Earl Hubert
de Burgh) enfeoffed a Thomas de Belhouse and his wife, Floria, with the
manor of Stanway, Essex in 1273-1274. I assume that Thomas de Belhouse
was related somehow to Maud (Pouchard) de Belhouse, sister of Lady
Alice (Pouchard) de Nerford. My files indicate that this Thomas de
Belhouse, of Stanway, Essex, is the lineal ancestor of at least three
17th Century New World colonists listed below.
1. William Clopton.
2. Thomas Culpeper.
3. Elizabeth & John Harleston.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
In an earlier post, we determined that Earl Hubert de Burgh (died 1243)
was kinsman (not nephew) of Alice Pouchard, wife of Sir Robert de
Nerford, and daughter and co-heiress of John Pouchard, of Tuddenham,
Norfolk, by his wife, Itta.
Besides Tuddenham and Brunham, Norfolk, it appear that Wreningham,
Norfolk was another Pouchard family property. I find that Lady Alice
(Pouchard) de Nerford gave a 1/2 share in the advowson of that place to
Creake Abbey in the period, 1225-1230 [Reference: Bedingfield, ed., A
Cartulary of Creake Abbey (Norfolk Rec. Soc. 35) (1966): 4].
Presumably the other half share of the advowson was inherited by
Alice's sister, Maud (Pouchard) de Belhouse. The source, Book of Fees,
shows that Alice (Pouchard) de Nerford held 1 knight's fee in
Wreningham, Norfolk in 1232-1233, and that her son, Richard de Nerford,
held 1/2 knight's fee in this place in 1242-1243 [Reference: Book of
Fees, 2 (1923): 905, 1466]. Both Alice Pouchard and her son, Sir
Richard de Nerford, held Wreningham under the honour of Wormegay, which
was held in this time period by Earl Hubert de Burgh in right of his
1st wife, Beatrice de Warenne.
Interestingly, there is a rather complete record of later Norfolk
manorial lords dated 1316, which was published in 1952 in Norfolk
Archaeology, vol. 30. This list shows the following major land owners
at Wreningham (with Nayland), Norfolk in 1316 to be:
Sir John de Thorp
Prior of Wymundham
Richard de Belhous
Emma de la Penne
Abbot of Crek
Presumably the Abbot of Creake obtained his interest in Wreningham,
Norfolk by gift from Lady Alice (Pouchard) de Nerford. As we can see,
the Nerford interest in Wreningham has seemingly disappeared by 1316.
The interest of Alice Pouchard's sister and co-heiress, Maud de
Belhouse, in Wreningham is presumably represented in 1316 by a certain
Richard de Belhous.
Elsewhere, I find that Sir John de Burgh (son and heir of Earl Hubert
de Burgh) enfeoffed a Thomas de Belhouse and his wife, Floria, with the
manor of Stanway, Essex in 1273-1274. I assume that Thomas de Belhouse
was related somehow to Maud (Pouchard) de Belhouse, sister of Lady
Alice (Pouchard) de Nerford. My files indicate that this Thomas de
Belhouse, of Stanway, Essex, is the lineal ancestor of at least three
17th Century New World colonists listed below.
1. William Clopton.
2. Thomas Culpeper.
3. Elizabeth & John Harleston.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-
CED
Re: Hubert de Burgh's alleged Pouchard ancestry
Douglas Richardson wrote:
To the Newsgroup:
In which of the earlier posts did we establish that Hubert de Burgh was
a kinsman of Alice Pouchard?
Richardson should point out specifically which post did establish the
relationship (some relationship of any kind). He seems now to be
trying to do by the side door what he found that he could not do by the
front door with his post of O2 January - that is to reinterpret the
many posts on this subject to say what we refused to let him say with a
so-salled "ancient" document.
Why is Richardson so determined to create a relationship between Hubert
de Burgh and the Pouchard family? He should at least let us know his
motive.
CED
Dear Newsgroup ~
In an earlier post, we determined that Earl Hubert de Burgh (died 1243)
was kinsman (not nephew) of Alice Pouchard, wife of Sir Robert de
Nerford, and daughter and co-heiress of John Pouchard, of Tuddenham,
Norfolk, by his wife, Itta.
To the Newsgroup:
In which of the earlier posts did we establish that Hubert de Burgh was
a kinsman of Alice Pouchard?
Richardson should point out specifically which post did establish the
relationship (some relationship of any kind). He seems now to be
trying to do by the side door what he found that he could not do by the
front door with his post of O2 January - that is to reinterpret the
many posts on this subject to say what we refused to let him say with a
so-salled "ancient" document.
Why is Richardson so determined to create a relationship between Hubert
de Burgh and the Pouchard family? He should at least let us know his
motive.
CED
Besides Tuddenham and Brunham, Norfolk, it appear that Wreningham,
Norfolk was another Pouchard family property. I find that Lady Alice
(Pouchard) de Nerford gave a 1/2 share in the advowson of that place to
Creake Abbey in the period, 1225-1230 [Reference: Bedingfield, ed., A
Cartulary of Creake Abbey (Norfolk Rec. Soc. 35) (1966): 4].
Presumably the other half share of the advowson was inherited by
Alice's sister, Maud (Pouchard) de Belhouse. The source, Book of Fees,
shows that Alice (Pouchard) de Nerford held 1 knight's fee in
Wreningham, Norfolk in 1232-1233, and that her son, Richard de Nerford,
held 1/2 knight's fee in this place in 1242-1243 [Reference: Book of
Fees, 2 (1923): 905, 1466]. Both Alice Pouchard and her son, Sir
Richard de Nerford, held Wreningham under the honour of Wormegay, which
was held in this time period by Earl Hubert de Burgh in right of his
1st wife, Beatrice de Warenne.
Interestingly, there is a rather complete record of later Norfolk
manorial lords dated 1316, which was published in 1952 in Norfolk
Archaeology, vol. 30. This list shows the following major land owners
at Wreningham (with Nayland), Norfolk in 1316 to be:
Sir John de Thorp
Prior of Wymundham
Richard de Belhous
Emma de la Penne
Abbot of Crek
Presumably the Abbot of Creake obtained his interest in Wreningham,
Norfolk by gift from Lady Alice (Pouchard) de Nerford. As we can see,
the Nerford interest in Wreningham has seemingly disappeared by 1316.
The interest of Alice Pouchard's sister and co-heiress, Maud de
Belhouse, in Wreningham is presumably represented in 1316 by a certain
Richard de Belhous.
Elsewhere, I find that Sir John de Burgh (son and heir of Earl Hubert
de Burgh) enfeoffed a Thomas de Belhouse and his wife, Floria, with the
manor of Stanway, Essex in 1273-1274. I assume that Thomas de Belhouse
was related somehow to Maud (Pouchard) de Belhouse, sister of Lady
Alice (Pouchard) de Nerford. My files indicate that this Thomas de
Belhouse, of Stanway, Essex, is the lineal ancestor of at least three
17th Century New World colonists listed below.
1. William Clopton.
2. Thomas Culpeper.
3. Elizabeth & John Harleston.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Hubert de Burgh's alleged Pouchard ancestry
Dear Newsgroup ~
The following two charters were located in the helpful online A2A
Catalogue
(http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp). The first charter dated
c.1100
involves the gift of a tenement at Stow Bardolph, Norfolk by Philip de
Burgh
to Carrow Priory, which gift was made for the soul of William son of
Reynold
de Warenne. The second charter dated c. 1150 was issued by William son
of
Reynold de Warenne. My research indicates that William son of Reynold
de
Warenne, of Wormegay, occurs as an adult between 1180-1208 [Reference:
C.T.
Clay, Early Yorkshire Charters, 8 (1949): 32-33]. As such, I believe
both
of these charters are badly misdated in the A2A Catalogue. At present,
the
identity of Philip de Burgh is unknown.
These charters are significant due to the fact that Earl Hubert de
Burgh is
known to have married as his first wife, Beatrice de Warenne, daughter
and
heiress of William son of Reynold de Warenne, of Wormegay. We know
that
Earl Hubert de Burgh's kinswoman, Alice Pouchard, was a tenant of the
honour
of Wormegay, held by the Warenne family. Were members of the Burgh
family
also tenants of the Warenne family?
Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum, 4 (1823): 68, discusses the history of
Carrow Priory and states that Reynold de Warenne and Alice his wife
gave the
advowson of Stow Bardolph, Norfolk to the priory. This couple were the
parents of William son of Reynold de Warenne, of Wormegay, who occurs
1180-1208. Dugdale states that William de Warenne confirmed the gift
of the
Stow Bardolph advowson about A.D. 1273 [sic]. William de Warenne also
gave
to the monastery a messuage and 40 acres of land in Stow Bardolph,
together
with his sister, Muriel, who became a nun of the house.
Interestingly, Dugdale further reveals that a moiety of the rectory of
Great
Wreningham, Norfolk was donated by one of the Thorpes of Ashwellthorpe
to
Carrow Priory. This is evidently the other half of the advowson of
Wreningham granted to Creake Abbey c. 1220-1225 by Earl Hubert de
Burgh's
kinswoman, Lady Alice Pouchard, wife of Sir Robert de Nerford. If so,
this
could mean that the Thorpe family of Ashwellthorpe were the heirs of
Lady
Alice Pouchard. Dugdale further states that the prioress of Carrow
presented to the mediety of Wreningham until 1414, when she conveyed it
to
Sir Edmund de Thorpe, knight, "who then purchased mediety belonging to
the
abbat of Creke."
In an earlier post today, I noted that Sir John de Thorp is listed
among
land owners at Wreningham, Norfolk in 1316. If so, he could well be
the
successor and heir to the interests held at Wreningham, Norfolk in the
early
1200's by Alice Pouchard and her son, Sir Richard de Nerford. The
history
of the Thorpe family is treated by Complete Peerage, 12 Pt. 1 (1953):
717-725, but this account does not mention how the Thorpe family came
to
possess the half share of the advowson of Wreningham, Norfolk, or
mention
any connection to the Nerford family or Carrow Priory. It does state
that
in 1349, Joan, widow of John de Thorpe, the younger (died 1340), was
holding
a half share in the advowson of Fresingfield, Suffolk.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Norfolk Record Office: Hare Family, Baronets of Stow Bardolph
1. Reference: Hare 3541 206 x 6
Charter - Feoffment
Creation dates: c1100
Physical characteristics: Seal tag
Scope and Content
Philip de Bergh to God and Blessed Mary of Carhowe and the nuns serving
God
there for the soul of William son of Reginald de Warren
Tenement in the town of Stowe with all appurtenances
Yearly rent 3s.5¾d
2. Reference: Hare 3542 206 x 6
Charter - Feoffment
Creation dates: c1150
Physical characteristics: Torn; Seal tag
Scope and Content
William de Warenn, son of Reginald de Warenn to Philip Lippo, servant
of
Stowe
30 acres of land at Langeland, at Cravesend, at Scorteland, at
Aethelingeshill, at Brungeresacre, in Garfurlang, at Benecroft, at
Snape, at
Bulewrthe, at Muse Hill, at Udgang, at Alepot, at Bekeswell, in
Nortmade and
at Torp bridge in the fields of Stowe
Yearly rent 3s.6¾d
The following two charters were located in the helpful online A2A
Catalogue
(http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp). The first charter dated
c.1100
involves the gift of a tenement at Stow Bardolph, Norfolk by Philip de
Burgh
to Carrow Priory, which gift was made for the soul of William son of
Reynold
de Warenne. The second charter dated c. 1150 was issued by William son
of
Reynold de Warenne. My research indicates that William son of Reynold
de
Warenne, of Wormegay, occurs as an adult between 1180-1208 [Reference:
C.T.
Clay, Early Yorkshire Charters, 8 (1949): 32-33]. As such, I believe
both
of these charters are badly misdated in the A2A Catalogue. At present,
the
identity of Philip de Burgh is unknown.
These charters are significant due to the fact that Earl Hubert de
Burgh is
known to have married as his first wife, Beatrice de Warenne, daughter
and
heiress of William son of Reynold de Warenne, of Wormegay. We know
that
Earl Hubert de Burgh's kinswoman, Alice Pouchard, was a tenant of the
honour
of Wormegay, held by the Warenne family. Were members of the Burgh
family
also tenants of the Warenne family?
Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum, 4 (1823): 68, discusses the history of
Carrow Priory and states that Reynold de Warenne and Alice his wife
gave the
advowson of Stow Bardolph, Norfolk to the priory. This couple were the
parents of William son of Reynold de Warenne, of Wormegay, who occurs
1180-1208. Dugdale states that William de Warenne confirmed the gift
of the
Stow Bardolph advowson about A.D. 1273 [sic]. William de Warenne also
gave
to the monastery a messuage and 40 acres of land in Stow Bardolph,
together
with his sister, Muriel, who became a nun of the house.
Interestingly, Dugdale further reveals that a moiety of the rectory of
Great
Wreningham, Norfolk was donated by one of the Thorpes of Ashwellthorpe
to
Carrow Priory. This is evidently the other half of the advowson of
Wreningham granted to Creake Abbey c. 1220-1225 by Earl Hubert de
Burgh's
kinswoman, Lady Alice Pouchard, wife of Sir Robert de Nerford. If so,
this
could mean that the Thorpe family of Ashwellthorpe were the heirs of
Lady
Alice Pouchard. Dugdale further states that the prioress of Carrow
presented to the mediety of Wreningham until 1414, when she conveyed it
to
Sir Edmund de Thorpe, knight, "who then purchased mediety belonging to
the
abbat of Creke."
In an earlier post today, I noted that Sir John de Thorp is listed
among
land owners at Wreningham, Norfolk in 1316. If so, he could well be
the
successor and heir to the interests held at Wreningham, Norfolk in the
early
1200's by Alice Pouchard and her son, Sir Richard de Nerford. The
history
of the Thorpe family is treated by Complete Peerage, 12 Pt. 1 (1953):
717-725, but this account does not mention how the Thorpe family came
to
possess the half share of the advowson of Wreningham, Norfolk, or
mention
any connection to the Nerford family or Carrow Priory. It does state
that
in 1349, Joan, widow of John de Thorpe, the younger (died 1340), was
holding
a half share in the advowson of Fresingfield, Suffolk.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Norfolk Record Office: Hare Family, Baronets of Stow Bardolph
1. Reference: Hare 3541 206 x 6
Charter - Feoffment
Creation dates: c1100
Physical characteristics: Seal tag
Scope and Content
Philip de Bergh to God and Blessed Mary of Carhowe and the nuns serving
God
there for the soul of William son of Reginald de Warren
Tenement in the town of Stowe with all appurtenances
Yearly rent 3s.5¾d
2. Reference: Hare 3542 206 x 6
Charter - Feoffment
Creation dates: c1150
Physical characteristics: Torn; Seal tag
Scope and Content
William de Warenn, son of Reginald de Warenn to Philip Lippo, servant
of
Stowe
30 acres of land at Langeland, at Cravesend, at Scorteland, at
Aethelingeshill, at Brungeresacre, in Garfurlang, at Benecroft, at
Snape, at
Bulewrthe, at Muse Hill, at Udgang, at Alepot, at Bekeswell, in
Nortmade and
at Torp bridge in the fields of Stowe
Yearly rent 3s.6¾d
-
CED
Re: Hubert de Burgh's alleged Pouchard ancestry
Douglas Richardson wrote:
To the Newsgroup:
Richardson repeats his assertion that Alice Pouchard was a kinswoman of
Hubert de Burgh. What is his evidence for that assertion? ( That
foundation history will not do.) Repetition does not make it so.
So long as he maintains that which he asserts without proof, the rest
of what he says means nothing.
He should realize that for the dozen or so vills called Burgh in East
Anglia, there are probably a dozen or more families being called 'of
Burgh,' most of whom were of such minor status as to leave no record.
Something similar to Smith when true hereditary surnames came to be
used.
Richardson should also realize that we have a complete record of Hubert
de Burgh's holdings at his fall in 1232. Unless he can prove that that
list is incomplete, to search for holdings of his son as evidence of
Hubert's ancestry would appear to be futile.
CED
Dear Newsgroup ~
The following two charters were located in the helpful online A2A
Catalogue
(http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp). The first charter dated
c.1100
involves the gift of a tenement at Stow Bardolph, Norfolk by Philip de
Burgh
to Carrow Priory, which gift was made for the soul of William son of
Reynold
de Warenne. The second charter dated c. 1150 was issued by William son
of
Reynold de Warenne. My research indicates that William son of Reynold
de
Warenne, of Wormegay, occurs as an adult between 1180-1208 [Reference:
C.T.
Clay, Early Yorkshire Charters, 8 (1949): 32-33]. As such, I believe
both
of these charters are badly misdated in the A2A Catalogue. At present,
the
identity of Philip de Burgh is unknown.
These charters are significant due to the fact that Earl Hubert de
Burgh is
known to have married as his first wife, Beatrice de Warenne, daughter
and
heiress of William son of Reynold de Warenne, of Wormegay. We know
that
Earl Hubert de Burgh's kinswoman, Alice Pouchard,
To the Newsgroup:
Richardson repeats his assertion that Alice Pouchard was a kinswoman of
Hubert de Burgh. What is his evidence for that assertion? ( That
foundation history will not do.) Repetition does not make it so.
So long as he maintains that which he asserts without proof, the rest
of what he says means nothing.
He should realize that for the dozen or so vills called Burgh in East
Anglia, there are probably a dozen or more families being called 'of
Burgh,' most of whom were of such minor status as to leave no record.
Something similar to Smith when true hereditary surnames came to be
used.
Richardson should also realize that we have a complete record of Hubert
de Burgh's holdings at his fall in 1232. Unless he can prove that that
list is incomplete, to search for holdings of his son as evidence of
Hubert's ancestry would appear to be futile.
CED
was a tenant of the
honour
of Wormegay, held by the Warenne family. Were members of the Burgh
family
also tenants of the Warenne family?
Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum, 4 (1823): 68, discusses the history of
Carrow Priory and states that Reynold de Warenne and Alice his wife
gave the
advowson of Stow Bardolph, Norfolk to the priory. This couple were the
parents of William son of Reynold de Warenne, of Wormegay, who occurs
1180-1208. Dugdale states that William de Warenne confirmed the gift
of the
Stow Bardolph advowson about A.D. 1273 [sic]. William de Warenne also
gave
to the monastery a messuage and 40 acres of land in Stow Bardolph,
together
with his sister, Muriel, who became a nun of the house.
Interestingly, Dugdale further reveals that a moiety of the rectory of
Great
Wreningham, Norfolk was donated by one of the Thorpes of Ashwellthorpe
to
Carrow Priory. This is evidently the other half of the advowson of
Wreningham granted to Creake Abbey c. 1220-1225 by Earl Hubert de
Burgh's
kinswoman, Lady Alice Pouchard, wife of Sir Robert de Nerford. If so,
this
could mean that the Thorpe family of Ashwellthorpe were the heirs of
Lady
Alice Pouchard. Dugdale further states that the prioress of Carrow
presented to the mediety of Wreningham until 1414, when she conveyed it
to
Sir Edmund de Thorpe, knight, "who then purchased mediety belonging to
the
abbat of Creke."
In an earlier post today, I noted that Sir John de Thorp is listed
among
land owners at Wreningham, Norfolk in 1316. If so, he could well be
the
successor and heir to the interests held at Wreningham, Norfolk in the
early
1200's by Alice Pouchard and her son, Sir Richard de Nerford. The
history
of the Thorpe family is treated by Complete Peerage, 12 Pt. 1 (1953):
717-725, but this account does not mention how the Thorpe family came
to
possess the half share of the advowson of Wreningham, Norfolk, or
mention
any connection to the Nerford family or Carrow Priory. It does state
that
in 1349, Joan, widow of John de Thorpe, the younger (died 1340), was
holding
a half share in the advowson of Fresingfield, Suffolk.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Norfolk Record Office: Hare Family, Baronets of Stow Bardolph
1. Reference: Hare 3541 206 x 6
Charter - Feoffment
Creation dates: c1100
Physical characteristics: Seal tag
Scope and Content
Philip de Bergh to God and Blessed Mary of Carhowe and the nuns serving
God
there for the soul of William son of Reginald de Warren
Tenement in the town of Stowe with all appurtenances
Yearly rent 3s.5¾d
2. Reference: Hare 3542 206 x 6
Charter - Feoffment
Creation dates: c1150
Physical characteristics: Torn; Seal tag
Scope and Content
William de Warenn, son of Reginald de Warenn to Philip Lippo, servant
of
Stowe
30 acres of land at Langeland, at Cravesend, at Scorteland, at
Aethelingeshill, at Brungeresacre, in Garfurlang, at Benecroft, at
Snape, at
Bulewrthe, at Muse Hill, at Udgang, at Alepot, at Bekeswell, in
Nortmade and
at Torp bridge in the fields of Stowe
Yearly rent 3s.6¾d
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Hubert de Burgh's alleged Pouchard ancestry (Revised Pos
Dear Newsgroup ~
The following two charters were located in the helpful online A2A
Catalogue (http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp). The first charter
dated c.1100 involves the gift of a tenement at Stow Bardolph, Norfolk
by Philip de Burgh to Carrow Priory, which gift was made for the soul
of William son of Reynold de Warenne. The second charter dated c. 1150
was issued by William son of Reynold de Warenne. My research indicates
that William son of Reynold de Warenne, of Wormegay, occurs as an adult
between 1180-1208 [Reference: C.T Clay, Early Yorkshire Charters, 8
(1949): 32-33]. As such, I believe both of these charters are badly
misdated in the A2A Catalogue. At present, the identity of Philip de
Burgh is unknown.
These charters are significant due to the fact that Earl Hubert de
Burgh is known to have married as his first wife, Beatrice de Warenne,
daughter and heiress of William son of Reynold de Warenne, of Wormegay.
We know that Earl Hubert de Burgh's kinswoman, Alice Pouchard, was a
tenant of the honour of Wormegay, held by the Warenne family. Were
members of the Burgh family also tenants of the Warenne family?
Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum, 4 (1823): 68, discusses the history of
Carrow Priory and states that Reynold de Warenne and Alice his wife
gave the advowson of Stow Bardolph, Norfolk to the priory. This couple
were the parents of William son of Reynold de Warenne, of Wormegay, who
occurs 1180-1208. Dugdale states that William de Warenne confirmed the
gift of the Stow Bardolph advowson about A.D. 1273 [sic]. William de
Warenne also gave to the monastery a messuage and 40 acres of land in
Stow Bardolph, together with his sister, Muriel, who became a nun of
the house.
Interestingly, Dugdale further reveals that a moiety of the rectory of
Great Wreningham, Norfolk was donated by one of the Thorpes of
Ashwellthorpe to Carrow Priory. This is evidently the other half of
the advowson of Wreningham granted to Creake Abbey c. 1220-1225 by
Earl Hubert de Burgh's kinswoman, Lady Alice Pouchard, wife of Sir
Robert de Nerford. If so, this could mean that the Thorpe family of
Ashwellthorpe were the heirs of Lady Alice Pouchard. Dugdale further
states that the prioress of Carrow presented to the mediety of
Wreningham until 1414, when she conveyed it to Sir Edmund de Thorpe,
knight, "who then purchased mediety belonging to the abbat of Creke."
In an earlier post today, I noted that Sir John de Thorp is listed
among land owners at Wreningham, Norfolk in 1316. If so, he could well
be the successor and heir to the interests held at Wreningham, Norfolk
in the early 1200's by Alice Pouchard and her son, Sir Richard de
Nerford. The history of the Thorpe family is treated by Complete
Peerage, 12 Pt. 1 (1953): 717-725, but this account does not mention
how the Thorpe family came to possess the half share of the advowson of
Wreningham, Norfolk, nor mention any connection to the Nerford family
or Carrow Priory. It does state that in 1349, Joan, widow of John de
Thorpe, the younger (died 1340), was holding a half share in the
advowson of Fresingfield, Suffolk.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Norfolk Record Office: Hare Family, Baronets of Stow Bardolph
1. Reference: Hare 3541 206 x 6
Charter - Feoffment.
Creation dates: c1100.
Physical characteristics: Seal tag.
Scope and Content.
Philip de Bergh to God and Blessed Mary of Carhowe and the nuns serving
God there for the soul of William son of Reginald de Warren.
Tenement in the town of Stowe with all appurtenances.
Yearly rent 3s.5¾d.
2. Reference: Hare 3542 206 x 6
Charter - Feoffment.
Creation dates: c1150.
Physical characteristics: Torn; Seal tag.
Scope and Content.
William de Warenn, son of Reginald de Warenn to Philip Lippo, servant
of Stowe.
30 acres of land at Langeland, at Cravesend, at Scorteland, at
Aethelingeshill, at Brungeresacre, in Garfurlang, at Benecroft, at
Snape, at Bulewrthe, at Muse Hill, at Udgang, at Alepot, at Bekeswell,
in Nortmade and at Torp bridge in the fields of Stowe.
Yearly rent 3s.6¾d.
The following two charters were located in the helpful online A2A
Catalogue (http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp). The first charter
dated c.1100 involves the gift of a tenement at Stow Bardolph, Norfolk
by Philip de Burgh to Carrow Priory, which gift was made for the soul
of William son of Reynold de Warenne. The second charter dated c. 1150
was issued by William son of Reynold de Warenne. My research indicates
that William son of Reynold de Warenne, of Wormegay, occurs as an adult
between 1180-1208 [Reference: C.T Clay, Early Yorkshire Charters, 8
(1949): 32-33]. As such, I believe both of these charters are badly
misdated in the A2A Catalogue. At present, the identity of Philip de
Burgh is unknown.
These charters are significant due to the fact that Earl Hubert de
Burgh is known to have married as his first wife, Beatrice de Warenne,
daughter and heiress of William son of Reynold de Warenne, of Wormegay.
We know that Earl Hubert de Burgh's kinswoman, Alice Pouchard, was a
tenant of the honour of Wormegay, held by the Warenne family. Were
members of the Burgh family also tenants of the Warenne family?
Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum, 4 (1823): 68, discusses the history of
Carrow Priory and states that Reynold de Warenne and Alice his wife
gave the advowson of Stow Bardolph, Norfolk to the priory. This couple
were the parents of William son of Reynold de Warenne, of Wormegay, who
occurs 1180-1208. Dugdale states that William de Warenne confirmed the
gift of the Stow Bardolph advowson about A.D. 1273 [sic]. William de
Warenne also gave to the monastery a messuage and 40 acres of land in
Stow Bardolph, together with his sister, Muriel, who became a nun of
the house.
Interestingly, Dugdale further reveals that a moiety of the rectory of
Great Wreningham, Norfolk was donated by one of the Thorpes of
Ashwellthorpe to Carrow Priory. This is evidently the other half of
the advowson of Wreningham granted to Creake Abbey c. 1220-1225 by
Earl Hubert de Burgh's kinswoman, Lady Alice Pouchard, wife of Sir
Robert de Nerford. If so, this could mean that the Thorpe family of
Ashwellthorpe were the heirs of Lady Alice Pouchard. Dugdale further
states that the prioress of Carrow presented to the mediety of
Wreningham until 1414, when she conveyed it to Sir Edmund de Thorpe,
knight, "who then purchased mediety belonging to the abbat of Creke."
In an earlier post today, I noted that Sir John de Thorp is listed
among land owners at Wreningham, Norfolk in 1316. If so, he could well
be the successor and heir to the interests held at Wreningham, Norfolk
in the early 1200's by Alice Pouchard and her son, Sir Richard de
Nerford. The history of the Thorpe family is treated by Complete
Peerage, 12 Pt. 1 (1953): 717-725, but this account does not mention
how the Thorpe family came to possess the half share of the advowson of
Wreningham, Norfolk, nor mention any connection to the Nerford family
or Carrow Priory. It does state that in 1349, Joan, widow of John de
Thorpe, the younger (died 1340), was holding a half share in the
advowson of Fresingfield, Suffolk.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Norfolk Record Office: Hare Family, Baronets of Stow Bardolph
1. Reference: Hare 3541 206 x 6
Charter - Feoffment.
Creation dates: c1100.
Physical characteristics: Seal tag.
Scope and Content.
Philip de Bergh to God and Blessed Mary of Carhowe and the nuns serving
God there for the soul of William son of Reginald de Warren.
Tenement in the town of Stowe with all appurtenances.
Yearly rent 3s.5¾d.
2. Reference: Hare 3542 206 x 6
Charter - Feoffment.
Creation dates: c1150.
Physical characteristics: Torn; Seal tag.
Scope and Content.
William de Warenn, son of Reginald de Warenn to Philip Lippo, servant
of Stowe.
30 acres of land at Langeland, at Cravesend, at Scorteland, at
Aethelingeshill, at Brungeresacre, in Garfurlang, at Benecroft, at
Snape, at Bulewrthe, at Muse Hill, at Udgang, at Alepot, at Bekeswell,
in Nortmade and at Torp bridge in the fields of Stowe.
Yearly rent 3s.6¾d.