Daughter of the English King: Wife of William de Burgh (died

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Douglas Richardson

Daughter of the English King: Wife of William de Burgh (died

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 04 jan 2006 10:15:31

Dear Newsgroup ~

Sometime ago, John Ravilious and I presented a working theory that
William de Burgh (died 1206), lord of Connaught in Ireland, may have
married either an illegitimate daughter of King Henry II or of King
Richard I. At the time, neither John or I had any evidence to support
the theory, other than references to kinship made by the English royal
family at various times to William de Burgh's great-grandson, Sir
Richard de Burgh (died 1326), Earl of Ulster.

Since our original posts on Sir William de Burgh's wife's identity, the
new DNB has become available. As indicated below, the updated
biography of William de Burgh (died 1206) supposes that William de
Burgh was married to a daughter of Domnall Mór Ó Briain:

"According to one Irish source de Burgh was married to a daughter of
Domnall Mór Ó Briain, which is consistent with the fact that he was
frequently accompanied by his Ó Briain allies, hereditary enemies of
the Mac Carthaig and the Ó Conchobhair, in his numerous campaigns in
Desmond and Connacht. Presumably this alliance gave him the means to
prosecute his territorial interests in Desmond and Connacht, while
leaving his castles on the Thomond frontier secure from attack." END
OF QUOTE.

Elsewhere, Stewart Baldwin has indicated that the primary source which
makes the claim that William de Burgh married a daughter of Domnall
Mór is the Book of Lecan (an early fifteenth century manuscript),
folio 82r. It is in a genealogical tract on the sept known as U Maine
(later Hy-Many), and was given with an English translation in John
O'Donovan's "The Tribes and Customs of Hy-Many" (Dublin, 1843), p. 44
(Irish) and p. 45 (English translation). The tract, as it exists now,
could not have been written before the year 1378, for it refers (p.49
of O'Donovan's translation) to a "Muichertach the Bishop" who is known
to have become bishop in that year. It was Mr. Baldwin's view in 2001
that if William de Burgh really married a daughter of Domnall Mór,
that she was a later second wife and probably not the mother of his son
and heir, Richard de Burgh (died 1243), also lord of Connaught.

So could William de Burgh have married an illegitimate daughter of King
Henry II or Richard I after all? Quite by chance, in a conversation I
had recently with Dr. David Kelley, FASG, he indicated that he knew of
a source which indicated just that. He has since kindly forwarded to
me a page from the book, Analecta Hibernica, No. 18, The O'Clery Book
of Genealogies (Irish MSS. Comm.), edited by Seamus Pender, published
in 1951.

On page 193 is a somewhat fabulous genealogical account of a cadet
branch of the Burgh family who were lords of Connaught. Quite
surprisingly, in this source, the mother of Richard de Burgh (died
1243) [son of William de Burgh "the Conqueror of Connaught"] is
identified as "the daughter of the Saxon king." Dr. Kelley informs me
that "in Ireland, the Normans became Saxons." Therefore, according to
Dr. Kelley, the correct translation of the text would be that Richard
de Burgh's mother was the "daughter of the English king."

Below is the part of the Burgh pedigree in the O'Clery Genealogies
which deals with Richard de Burgh and his father, William de Burgh:

"... Sir Uilliam Burc (Una ingen Feidhlimthe mic Cathail croibhdeirg a
mhathair), m. Uilliam óig frisi n-abarthaoi Uilliam átha an chip m
Riocaird mhoir (ingen righ Saxan a mathair), m. Uilliam concuurer .i.
Uilliam Adelmisione m Risdeird m Antoin .i. iárla king, Sir Seon a
ainm oile m Sir Balbhuaidh m Sir Badbduinn m Sir Crass .i. cenn na
ccriostaidhedh m King Rolont oig m King Rolont mhoir m Charroluis óig
m Charroluis mhoir na Fraince."

I present the pedigree above, not because it is necessarily entirely
reliable, but because it presents a tradition (rightly or wrongly) that
the wife of Sir William de Burgh (died 1206) and the mother of his
heir, Richard, was the daughter of the English king. At this
junction, I think it is safe to say this matter deserves further study.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

CED

Re: Daughter of the English King: Wife of William de Burgh (

Legg inn av CED » 04 jan 2006 14:36:52

Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~

Sometime ago, John Ravilious and I presented a working theory that
William de Burgh (died 1206), lord of Connaught in Ireland, may have
married either an illegitimate daughter of King Henry II or of King
Richard I. At the time, neither John or I had any evidence to support
the theory, other than references to kinship made by the English royal
family at various times to William de Burgh's great-grandson, Sir
Richard de Burgh (died 1326), Earl of Ulster.

To the Newsgroup:

Surprise!

I agree with Richardson and John Ravilious that there are connections
between the Burgh family and Henry II which have not been made apparent
in the records now available. For more than two decades I have trod
the path between those families looking for clues. So far, the facts
don't go where logic carries me. Three questions:

Who was the mother of Hubert de Burgh and his brother Bp.Geoffrey (and
not neccessarily of their brother, William)?

Who were the parents of Margaret, wife of Richard de Burgh, earl of
Ulster (d. 1326)?

How do we account for the rapid rise (apparently from no place) (a) of
the Burghs in Ireland and (b) of Hubert de Burgh (almost singular for a
man not in the Church)?

CED



Since our original posts on Sir William de Burgh's wife's identity, the
new DNB has become available. As indicated below, the updated
biography of William de Burgh (died 1206) supposes that William de
Burgh was married to a daughter of Domnall Mór Ó Briain:

"According to one Irish source de Burgh was married to a daughter of
Domnall Mór Ó Briain, which is consistent with the fact that he was
frequently accompanied by his Ó Briain allies, hereditary enemies of
the Mac Carthaig and the Ó Conchobhair, in his numerous campaigns in
Desmond and Connacht. Presumably this alliance gave him the means to
prosecute his territorial interests in Desmond and Connacht, while
leaving his castles on the Thomond frontier secure from attack." END
OF QUOTE.

Elsewhere, Stewart Baldwin has indicated that the primary source which
makes the claim that William de Burgh married a daughter of Domnall
Mór is the Book of Lecan (an early fifteenth century manuscript),
folio 82r. It is in a genealogical tract on the sept known as U Maine
(later Hy-Many), and was given with an English translation in John
O'Donovan's "The Tribes and Customs of Hy-Many" (Dublin, 1843), p. 44
(Irish) and p. 45 (English translation). The tract, as it exists now,
could not have been written before the year 1378, for it refers (p.49
of O'Donovan's translation) to a "Muichertach the Bishop" who is known
to have become bishop in that year. It was Mr. Baldwin's view in 2001
that if William de Burgh really married a daughter of Domnall Mór,
that she was a later second wife and probably not the mother of his son
and heir, Richard de Burgh (died 1243), also lord of Connaught.

So could William de Burgh have married an illegitimate daughter of King
Henry II or Richard I after all? Quite by chance, in a conversation I
had recently with Dr. David Kelley, FASG, he indicated that he knew of
a source which indicated just that. He has since kindly forwarded to
me a page from the book, Analecta Hibernica, No. 18, The O'Clery Book
of Genealogies (Irish MSS. Comm.), edited by Seamus Pender, published
in 1951.

On page 193 is a somewhat fabulous genealogical account of a cadet
branch of the Burgh family who were lords of Connaught. Quite
surprisingly, in this source, the mother of Richard de Burgh (died
1243) [son of William de Burgh "the Conqueror of Connaught"] is
identified as "the daughter of the Saxon king." Dr. Kelley informs me
that "in Ireland, the Normans became Saxons." Therefore, according to
Dr. Kelley, the correct translation of the text would be that Richard
de Burgh's mother was the "daughter of the English king."

Below is the part of the Burgh pedigree in the O'Clery Genealogies
which deals with Richard de Burgh and his father, William de Burgh:

"... Sir Uilliam Burc (Una ingen Feidhlimthe mic Cathail croibhdeirg a
mhathair), m. Uilliam óig frisi n-abarthaoi Uilliam átha an chip m
Riocaird mhoir (ingen righ Saxan a mathair), m. Uilliam concuurer .i.
Uilliam Adelmisione m Risdeird m Antoin .i. iárla king, Sir Seon a
ainm oile m Sir Balbhuaidh m Sir Badbduinn m Sir Crass .i. cenn na
ccriostaidhedh m King Rolont oig m King Rolont mhoir m Charroluis óig
m Charroluis mhoir na Fraince."

I present the pedigree above, not because it is necessarily entirely
reliable, but because it presents a tradition (rightly or wrongly) that
the wife of Sir William de Burgh (died 1206) and the mother of his
heir, Richard, was the daughter of the English king. At this
junction, I think it is safe to say this matter deserves further study.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Gjest

Hubert de Burgh

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 jan 2006 03:07:47

From; Debrett's Peerage - Scotland & Ireland 1825 page 781



The family of De Burgh ranks among the most ancient in the united
kingdoms. Hubert de Burgh earl of kent, was one of the greatest
subjects in Europe,in the reings of king John and Henry III.
His uncle, Adelm de Burgh settled in Ireland and was ancestor of
Richard de Burgh, Lord of Connaught and Trim, who d. 1243, leaving
two sons, Walter earl of Ulster, and William, ancestor of the earls of
Clanricarde.



Brendan Wilson
To Reply: remove [.] from around the dot. Stops Spam

Researching: Lowther, Westmoreland. Clifford, Cumberland /Yorkshire. Brennan, Kilhile, Ballyhack Wexford. Fitzgibbon, Kingsland French Park Rosscommon,Ireland. Prendergast & Donohue, Cappoquin Lismore, Waterford. Starr & Turner, Romford Essex,England.
Peters, Hamburg & Ballarat Victoria.Lund, Hamburg.Lowther & McCormack,Dublin.

Douglas Richardson

Re: Daughter of the English King: Wife of William de Burgh (

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 05 jan 2006 06:32:05

Dear Newsgroup ~

I found a reference online just now which states that there are several
"communications" regarding the early Burgh family which are published
in Notes and Queries, 4th Series.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net


Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~

Sometime ago, John Ravilious and I presented a working theory that
William de Burgh (died 1206), lord of Connaught in Ireland, may have
married either an illegitimate daughter of King Henry II or of King
Richard I. At the time, neither John or I had any evidence to support
the theory, other than references to kinship made by the English royal
family at various times to William de Burgh's great-grandson, Sir
Richard de Burgh (died 1326), Earl of Ulster.

Since our original posts on Sir William de Burgh's wife's identity, the
new DNB has become available. As indicated below, the updated
biography of William de Burgh (died 1206) supposes that William de
Burgh was married to a daughter of Domnall Mór Ó Briain:

"According to one Irish source de Burgh was married to a daughter of
Domnall Mór Ó Briain, which is consistent with the fact that he was
frequently accompanied by his Ó Briain allies, hereditary enemies of
the Mac Carthaig and the Ó Conchobhair, in his numerous campaigns in
Desmond and Connacht. Presumably this alliance gave him the means to
prosecute his territorial interests in Desmond and Connacht, while
leaving his castles on the Thomond frontier secure from attack." END
OF QUOTE.

Elsewhere, Stewart Baldwin has indicated that the primary source which
makes the claim that William de Burgh married a daughter of Domnall
Mór is the Book of Lecan (an early fifteenth century manuscript),
folio 82r. It is in a genealogical tract on the sept known as U Maine
(later Hy-Many), and was given with an English translation in John
O'Donovan's "The Tribes and Customs of Hy-Many" (Dublin, 1843), p. 44
(Irish) and p. 45 (English translation). The tract, as it exists now,
could not have been written before the year 1378, for it refers (p.49
of O'Donovan's translation) to a "Muichertach the Bishop" who is known
to have become bishop in that year. It was Mr. Baldwin's view in 2001
that if William de Burgh really married a daughter of Domnall Mór,
that she was a later second wife and probably not the mother of his son
and heir, Richard de Burgh (died 1243), also lord of Connaught.

So could William de Burgh have married an illegitimate daughter of King
Henry II or Richard I after all? Quite by chance, in a conversation I
had recently with Dr. David Kelley, FASG, he indicated that he knew of
a source which indicated just that. He has since kindly forwarded to
me a page from the book, Analecta Hibernica, No. 18, The O'Clery Book
of Genealogies (Irish MSS. Comm.), edited by Seamus Pender, published
in 1951.

On page 193 is a somewhat fabulous genealogical account of a cadet
branch of the Burgh family who were lords of Connaught. Quite
surprisingly, in this source, the mother of Richard de Burgh (died
1243) [son of William de Burgh "the Conqueror of Connaught"] is
identified as "the daughter of the Saxon king." Dr. Kelley informs me
that "in Ireland, the Normans became Saxons." Therefore, according to
Dr. Kelley, the correct translation of the text would be that Richard
de Burgh's mother was the "daughter of the English king."

Below is the part of the Burgh pedigree in the O'Clery Genealogies
which deals with Richard de Burgh and his father, William de Burgh:

"... Sir Uilliam Burc (Una ingen Feidhlimthe mic Cathail croibhdeirg a
mhathair), m. Uilliam óig frisi n-abarthaoi Uilliam átha an chip m
Riocaird mhoir (ingen righ Saxan a mathair), m. Uilliam concuurer .i.
Uilliam Adelmisione m Risdeird m Antoin .i. iárla king, Sir Seon a
ainm oile m Sir Balbhuaidh m Sir Badbduinn m Sir Crass .i. cenn na
ccriostaidhedh m King Rolont oig m King Rolont mhoir m Charroluis óig
m Charroluis mhoir na Fraince."

I present the pedigree above, not because it is necessarily entirely
reliable, but because it presents a tradition (rightly or wrongly) that
the wife of Sir William de Burgh (died 1206) and the mother of his
heir, Richard, was the daughter of the English king. At this
junction, I think it is safe to say this matter deserves further study.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

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