Helen of Strathearn, daughter of Joanna de Menteith (revisit

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Helen of Strathearn, daughter of Joanna de Menteith (revisit

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 jan 2006 21:49:02

Sunday, 1 January, 2006



Hello (and Happy New Year to) All,

In a previous thread, the dispensation (9 Oct 1353) for the
marriage of Sir David de Graham and Helen of Strathearn was noted,
and the basis for the relationship described [1], as well as the
impact on the ancestry of their son Sir Patrick Graham and his
descendants. In the first post of that thread, I suggested an
interesting possibility: that Sir Patrick’s mother, Helen of
Strathearn, was actually a daughter of Earl Malise (d. 1328) by
his 2nd wife, Joanna de Menteith, instead of his unknown 1st
wife [2].

Support for this hypothesis has been found in the dispensa-
tion for the marriage of Archibald Douglas and Euphemia Graham.
Dated 26 June 1425, this dispensation states [in part] that they
entered into marriage, but " afterward found to be related on one
side in the double 3rd degree, and on the other side in the
double 4th degree [of consanguinity] from diverse stocks " [3].
The one well-known 3rd degree relationship, on the mother’s side
for each, is from common descent from Robert II, King of Scots
(see AT for each, and discussion, below). One of the 4th degree
relationships, on the father’s side for each, would result from
common descent from Joanna de Menteith, as follows:


1) Malise = Joanna de = 3) Sir Maurice
E of Strathearn I Menteith I Murray, d. 1346
d. 1328 __I I________________
I I
Sir David = Helen Sir Thomas = Joanna
Graham I Murray I Murray
______I I______
I I
Sir Patrick = (2) Egidia Archibald = Joanna
Graham I Stewart Douglas I Murray
________I _______I
I I
Sir Patrick = Euphemia Archibald = Margaret
Graham I Stewart Douglas I Stewart
I______ __________I
I I
Euphemia = Archibald
Graham I Douglas
V


I am working on a conjecture concerning Sir John Stewart of
Railston, great-grandfather of Euphemia Graham, which may resolve
the other 4th degree relationship cited in the dispensation.
What is at least as interesting as the above, is that there is
another 3rd degree relationship between Archibald Douglas and
Euphemia Graham on the mother’s side. The grandparents of these
two are well-known members of the Stewart, Douglas and Graham
families, with the single weak link being the alleged
identification of the wife of David Stewart, Earl of Caithness as
a daughter of Sir Alexander Lindsay of Glenesk, given in Scots
Peerage.

I would suggest, based on the relationship cited in the above
dispensation, that the wife of Earl David Stewart and mother of
Euphemia Stewart (mother of Euphemia Graham) was a hitherto
unidentified daughter of Sir John Drummond of Cargill and Stobhall
by his wife Mary de Montfichet [4]. The two relationships in
the 3rd degree, or "double third degree" as stated in the
dispensation for Archibald Douglas and Euphemia Graham, would then
appear as follows:


1) Elizabeth Mure = Robert II = 2) Euphemia of Ross
________________I I______________
I I
I Sir John = Mary de I
I Drummond I Montfichet I
I ___________I______ I
I I I I
Robert III = Annabela NN = David Stewart
K of Scots I Drummond Drummond I E of Strathearn
I______ I_________
I I
Archibald = Margaret Sir Patrick = Euphemia
Douglas I Stewart Graham I Stewart
I______ __________I
I I
Archibald = Euphemia
Douglas I Graham
V


Further documentation to prove or disprove this conjecture is
being sought. As to the 4th degree relationship set forth above
(common descent of Archibald Douglas and Euphemia Graham from
Joanna de Menteith), if anyone wishes to have the full text of
the dispensation, please advise and I will forward a copy (as a
.pdf attachment) directly. Should anyone have relevant
documentation, comment or criticism, that will be welcome.

Cheers,

John *



NOTES

[1] J. Ravilious, Dianne Sheppard and Will Johnson, <SP Addition:
Helen of Strathearn, wife of Sir David Graham>, SGM, Nov
2005. The text for the dispensation, from Bliss, ed.
Calendar of Entries in the Papal Registers
relating to Great Britain and Ireland: Papal Letters,
Vol. III (A.D. 1342 - 1362) [London: PRO, 1897, reprinted
1971], p. 514:

" 1353.
7 Id. Oct. To David de Grame, knight, and Helen, relict
Avignon. of Reginald Chene, knight, of the dioceses of
(f. 448.) Brechin and St. Andrews.
Dispensation, at the request of John, king
of France, to intermarry, they being related
in the fourth degree of kindred. [Theiner, 305.] "


[2] J. Ravilious, ibid. I also noted that Andrew MacEwen had
pointed out that the chronology was ‘tight’ and he felt
did not work well with this hypothesis.


[3] Andrew Stuart, Genealogical History of the Stuarts, from
the earliest period of their authentic history to the
present times (London: Printed for A. Strahan, and T.
Cadell Jun. and W. Davies, in the Strand, 1798), p. 455.


[4] Ancestry of Archibald Douglas and Euphemia Graham, as
known and conjectured at this time, are as follows
(conjectured identifications noted as such):

AT for Archibald Douglas:

1. Archibald Douglas, Earl of Douglas, d. 26 Jun 1439

2. Archibald Douglas, Earl of Douglas, k. Verneuil 16 Aug 1424
3. Margaret Stewart

4. Archibald ‘the Grim’, Earl of Douglas, d. ca. 1400
5. Joanna Murray
6. Robert III, King of Scots
7. Annabela Drummond

8. Sir James ‘the Good’ Douglas, k. 25 Aug 1300
9. NN (not married)
10. Sir Thomas Murray of Bothwell
11. Joanna Murray
12. Robert II, King of Scots
13. Elizabeth Mure
14. Sir John Drummond
15. Mary de Montfichet

16. Sir William Douglas ‘le Hardi’, d. bef 24 Jan 1298/9
17. Elizabeth Stewart
18. NN
19. NN
20. Sir Andrew Murray of Bothwell
21. NN (1st wife)
22. Sir Maurice Murray of Drumsegard
23. Joanna de Menteith [See Below, #19]
24. Walter Stewart
25. Marjory Bruce, dau. of Robert I, King of Scots
26. Sir Adam Mure
27. Jean (Joanna) Cunningham
28. Sir Malcolm Drummond
29. NN
30. Sir William de Montfichet
31. NN


AT for Euphemia Graham:

1. Euphemia Graham, m. Archibald Douglas bef 26 Jun 1425

2. Sir Patrick Graham, Earl of Strathearn (dju), d. 10 Aug 1413
3. Euphemia Stewart, suo jure Countess of Strathearn

4. Sir Patrick Graham, d. aft 6 May 1400
5. Egidia Stewart
6. David Stewart, Earl of Strathearn and Caithness
7. [CONJECTURED] NN Drummond

8. Sir David de Graham, d. aft 4 Apr 1373
9. Helen of Strathearn
10. Sir John Stewart of Railston
11. NN
12. Robert II, King of Scots
13. Euphemia of Ross (2nd wife)
14. [CONJECTURED] Sir John Drummond
15. [CONJECTURED] Mary de Montfichet

16. Sir David de Graham
17. NN
18. Malise, Earl of Strathearn, d. 1328
19. Joanna de Menteith [See Above, #23]
20. Walter Stewart
21. Isabel Graham (2nd wife)
22. NN
23. NN
24. Walter Stewart
25. Marjory Bruce, dau. of Robert I, King of Scots
26. Hugh, Earl of Ross, d. 19 Jul 1333
27. Margaret Graham
28. [CONJECTURED] Sir Malcolm Drummond
29. NN
30. [CONJECTURED] Sir William de Montfichet
31. NN


* John P. Ravilious

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