I recently came across the discussion on the "Origins of the Despensers" (the Despensers of Loughborough) held between various members of this group in Jan 2003. The main unresolved problem seemed to be the parentage of Thomas le Despenser (d. about 1207) and it was conjectured by John Ravilious that his father was more likely to be Hugh de Berges rather than Hugh's brother Geoffrey. Although a couple of the charters of Garendon Abbey were quoted in this discussion, nobody appears to have looked at the others. The other day I happened to browse through a transcription of the complete cartulary, which contains about 15 charters relevant to the Despenser/de Berges family. There are two charters by Thomas Dispenser in which he states that his father was Geoffrey. One of them begins: "I Thomas Dispensator, son of Geoffrey (Galfridus) Dispensator, have given and confirmed ten bovates in land at Burton with the consent of Asketill de Berges, my lord of the same land."
In another charter Thomas gives the name of his wife: "Let it be known that I have given with the agreement and good will of my wife Recuare.....etc" (Sciatis me dedisse, consessione et bona voluntate uxoris mee Recuare.....). So far as I know, there is no Latin female name Recuare. But maybe it's an incorrect transcription of Rohese, (Thomas had a daughter of this name), in which case this gives support to the suggestion that Thomas was married to Rohese de Foix, daughter of Roger-Bernard de Foix and Cecily (see thread on this subject of Jan 2005). Does anybody know of any other documented evidence for this?
Clive West
Thomas le Despenser
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Thomas le Despenser
Dear Clive ~
Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.
I see there is an account of the history of Garendon Abbey,
Leicestershire in William Dugdale's great work, Monasticon Anglicanum,
5 (1825): 328, et seq. It may be viewed online at
http://www.monasticmatrix.com at the following weblink:
http://monasticmatrix.usc.edu/bibliogra ... il&id=2659
I notice that Dugdale mentions an early charter issued to Garendon
Abbey by Geoffrey son of Ralph de Loughborough:
pg. 330
"20. Carta Gauf. filii Radulphi de Lucteburg (sc. Loughborough) de
communa in bosco de Thorp Hanker et Garendon ex concessione comitis de
Winton; ex de clausis suis in Halliwellhaghe ab omni calumpnia liberis
habendis, ex. orig. pen. Ambr. Phil. fol. 39." END OF QUOTE.
Elsewhere on pg. 332, Dugdale presents an abstract of a confirmation
charter of King Edward III. Reference is made in the confirmation
charter to several earlier gifts made to Garendon Abbey at Haliwellhawe
by Robert and William de Torz, and Thomas le Despenser:
".... donationabus quas Robertus de Torz, Willielmus de Torz, et Thomas
Dispensarius fecurent praedictis monachis in feudo ipsius comitis de
Haliwellhawe."
Given that Thomas le Despenser had property at Loughborough and
evidently also at Haliwellhawe, I wonder if Geoffrey son of Ralph de
Loughborough named above who held property at Haliwellhawe is one of
Thomas le Despenser's near relations.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
"Clive West" wrote:
Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.
I see there is an account of the history of Garendon Abbey,
Leicestershire in William Dugdale's great work, Monasticon Anglicanum,
5 (1825): 328, et seq. It may be viewed online at
http://www.monasticmatrix.com at the following weblink:
http://monasticmatrix.usc.edu/bibliogra ... il&id=2659
I notice that Dugdale mentions an early charter issued to Garendon
Abbey by Geoffrey son of Ralph de Loughborough:
pg. 330
"20. Carta Gauf. filii Radulphi de Lucteburg (sc. Loughborough) de
communa in bosco de Thorp Hanker et Garendon ex concessione comitis de
Winton; ex de clausis suis in Halliwellhaghe ab omni calumpnia liberis
habendis, ex. orig. pen. Ambr. Phil. fol. 39." END OF QUOTE.
Elsewhere on pg. 332, Dugdale presents an abstract of a confirmation
charter of King Edward III. Reference is made in the confirmation
charter to several earlier gifts made to Garendon Abbey at Haliwellhawe
by Robert and William de Torz, and Thomas le Despenser:
".... donationabus quas Robertus de Torz, Willielmus de Torz, et Thomas
Dispensarius fecurent praedictis monachis in feudo ipsius comitis de
Haliwellhawe."
Given that Thomas le Despenser had property at Loughborough and
evidently also at Haliwellhawe, I wonder if Geoffrey son of Ralph de
Loughborough named above who held property at Haliwellhawe is one of
Thomas le Despenser's near relations.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
"Clive West" wrote:
I recently came across the discussion on the "Origins of the Despensers" (the Despensers of Loughborough) held between various members of this group in Jan 2003. The main unresolved problem seemed to be the parentage of Thomas le Despenser (d. about 1207) and it was conjectured by John Ravilious that his father was more likely to be Hugh de Berges rather than Hugh's brother Geoffrey. Although a couple of the charters of Garendon Abbey were quoted in this discussion, nobody appears to have looked at the others. The other day I happened to browse through a transcription of the complete cartulary, which contains about 15 charters relevant to the Despenser/de Berges family. There are two charters by Thomas Dispenser in which he states that his father was Geoffrey. One of them begins: "I Thomas Dispensator, son of Geoffrey (Galfridus) Dispensator, have given and confirmed ten bovates in land at Burton with the consent of Asketill de Berges, my lord of the same land."
In another charter Thomas gives the name of his wife: "Let it be known that I have given with the agreement and good will of my wife Recuare.....etc" (Sciatis me dedisse, consessione et bona voluntate uxoris mee Recuare.....). So far as I know, there is no Latin female name Recuare. But maybe it's an incorrect transcription of Rohese, (Thomas had a daughter of this name), in which case this gives support to the suggestion that Thomas was married to Rohese de Foix, daughter of Roger-Bernard de Foix and Cecily (see thread on this subject of Jan 2005). Does anybody know of any other documented evidence for this?
Clive West
-
John P. Ravilious
Re: Thomas le Despenser
Dear Clive,
This is a most interesting find! The extract used to date, from
the Calendar of the Charter Rolls, described the grant of land in
Burton on the Wolds, co. Leics. to Garendon abbey as 'the grant of the
same Asketil of the gift of Thomas Dispensator of ten bovates of land
in his fee, in the same town' [1], but without the rather helpful
parental details for Thomas. Even the discussion by Farrer in Honors
and Knights Fees leaves this out of print [2]. Many thanks for
bringing this to light.
Beyond what had been previously conjectured, this will provide a
solid identification for the placement of Thomas 'dispensator' in the
Berges/Prestwold family, and give the Despensers a genuine descent to
the sister of the minor landholders Thurstan and Radulf de
Queniborough, and their (probable) father and Domesday tenant, William
de Queniborough. On the subject of the Foix relationship, I'm not sure
how much documentation there is to support this. It would be of great
interest, and I will look further into this (via SGM archives to
start). If anyone has already found this to be either valid or
invalid, please advise.
When you have a chance, if you could give a detailed citation to
the work from which the 'Thomas son of Geoffrey' text is drawn, that
would be most appreciated. I will be happy to post a detailed
pedigree, from NN (prob. William) de Queniborough to the Despensers,
following same.
Cheers,
John
NOTES:
[1] CCR IV:475.
[2] Farrer says on the subject of Ellis/Elias 'dispensarius' and his
successor (known as his brother),
' The successor of Ellis was Thomas Despenser, who was amerced 1 mark
in 1166 for a default in Leicestershire. This Thomas was amerced 40s.
in 1176
for forest trespass in Leicestershire.... he was presumably the donor
to [Garendon]
abbey of 10 bovates in Burton on the Wolds, Leics., of the fee of
Asketil de
Berges,...' [ Farrer, HKF II:58, citing Pipe Roll 12 Hen II, p. 70; 22
Hen II, p. 185;
and Cal. Chart. Rolls iv. 475].
The connection of Thomas and the Despensers to Burton is quite
solid, as we know, 'Thomas Dispensator gave to Stephen de Segrave with
Roese his daughter in free marriage a rent of 2s in Burton', to them
and the heirs of their bodies' (CP IV: 259n).
"Clive West" wrote:
This is a most interesting find! The extract used to date, from
the Calendar of the Charter Rolls, described the grant of land in
Burton on the Wolds, co. Leics. to Garendon abbey as 'the grant of the
same Asketil of the gift of Thomas Dispensator of ten bovates of land
in his fee, in the same town' [1], but without the rather helpful
parental details for Thomas. Even the discussion by Farrer in Honors
and Knights Fees leaves this out of print [2]. Many thanks for
bringing this to light.
Beyond what had been previously conjectured, this will provide a
solid identification for the placement of Thomas 'dispensator' in the
Berges/Prestwold family, and give the Despensers a genuine descent to
the sister of the minor landholders Thurstan and Radulf de
Queniborough, and their (probable) father and Domesday tenant, William
de Queniborough. On the subject of the Foix relationship, I'm not sure
how much documentation there is to support this. It would be of great
interest, and I will look further into this (via SGM archives to
start). If anyone has already found this to be either valid or
invalid, please advise.
When you have a chance, if you could give a detailed citation to
the work from which the 'Thomas son of Geoffrey' text is drawn, that
would be most appreciated. I will be happy to post a detailed
pedigree, from NN (prob. William) de Queniborough to the Despensers,
following same.
Cheers,
John
NOTES:
[1] CCR IV:475.
[2] Farrer says on the subject of Ellis/Elias 'dispensarius' and his
successor (known as his brother),
' The successor of Ellis was Thomas Despenser, who was amerced 1 mark
in 1166 for a default in Leicestershire. This Thomas was amerced 40s.
in 1176
for forest trespass in Leicestershire.... he was presumably the donor
to [Garendon]
abbey of 10 bovates in Burton on the Wolds, Leics., of the fee of
Asketil de
Berges,...' [ Farrer, HKF II:58, citing Pipe Roll 12 Hen II, p. 70; 22
Hen II, p. 185;
and Cal. Chart. Rolls iv. 475].
The connection of Thomas and the Despensers to Burton is quite
solid, as we know, 'Thomas Dispensator gave to Stephen de Segrave with
Roese his daughter in free marriage a rent of 2s in Burton', to them
and the heirs of their bodies' (CP IV: 259n).
"Clive West" wrote:
I recently came across the discussion on the "Origins of the Despensers" (the Despensers of Loughborough) held between various members of this group in Jan 2003. The main unresolved problem seemed to be the parentage of Thomas le Despenser (d. about 1207) and it was conjectured by John Ravilious that his father was more likely to be Hugh de Berges rather than Hugh's brother Geoffrey. Although a couple of the charters of Garendon Abbey were quoted in this discussion, nobody appears to have looked at the others. The other day I happened to browse through a transcription of the complete cartulary, which contains about 15 charters relevant to the Despenser/de Berges family. There are two charters by Thomas Dispenser in which he states that his father was Geoffrey. One of them begins: "I Thomas Dispensator, son of Geoffrey (Galfridus) Dispensator, have given and confirmed ten bovates in land at Burton with the consent of Asketill de Berges, my lord of the same land."
In another charter Thomas gives the name of his wife: "Let it be known that I have given with the agreement and good will of my wife Recuare.....etc" (Sciatis me dedisse, consessione et bona voluntate uxoris mee Recuare.....). So far as I know, there is no Latin female name Recuare. But maybe it's an incorrect transcription of Rohese, (Thomas had a daughter of this name), in which case this gives support to the suggestion that Thomas was married to Rohese de Foix, daughter of Roger-Bernard de Foix and Cecily (see thread on this subject of Jan 2005). Does anybody know of any other documented evidence for this?
Clive West
-
John P. Ravilious
Re: Thomas le Despenser
Dear Doug,
I believe the Geoffrey, son of Ralph you mention in your message
is a near relation, but likely not the father of Thomas 'the
Despenser'.
1. Thurstan de Queniborough, with the advice and consent of
'Radulphi fratris mei', confirmed the gift by his nephew Hugh de Berges
of 3 carucates in Burton on the Wolds, co. Leics. to Garendon abbey [BL
Lansdowne MS 415] .
2. Geoffrey 'the Despenser' [ name appearing as ' Gaufrido
dispensatore..',] was a witness to charters of the Earls of Chester,
together with others - including several with his brother Ivo de
Alspath [e.g., ' Gaufrido dispensatore et Ivone fratre suo...' ,
charter #82 ] ca. 1135-1153. Barraclough, The Charters of the
Anglo-Norman Earls of Chester, charters
#25, 35-37, 50, 55-59, 64, 73, 85, 99.
3. Ivo de Alspath is identified as 'Ivo son of Aschetil [or
Anketinus]' : 'Ivone filio Aschetilli', witness to confirmation of a
gift to St. Werburgh's abbey of Raby, co. Warwicks., ca. 1135-40
[Barraclough, charter #21 - from P.R.O., C.53 (Chancery Charter Rolls),
no. 73, m. 10]. As constable of Coventry castle, ca. 1144 under
Ranulf, Earl of Chester, he is identified as also being the brother of
Geoffrey: 'Ivone constabulario', witness to a grant in Coventry
together with
Thurstan Banaster and brother Geoffrey ['Gaufrido dispensatore']
[Barraclough, charter #72, cites B. L. Harl. MS. 7, ff. 101v-102].
4. This Aschetil is identified as the son of Hugh de Berges (or of
Prestwold), and would be the first cousin of any issue of his uncle
Ralph/Radulf de Queniborough.
I would suggest the 'Geoffrey son of Ralph' in question was
therefore a first cousin of Aschetil de Berges, and first cousin 1x
removed to Geoffrey 'dispensarius', son of Aschetil.
Cheers,
John
Douglas Richardson wrote:
<<<<<<<<< SNIP >>>>>>>>>>>
I believe the Geoffrey, son of Ralph you mention in your message
is a near relation, but likely not the father of Thomas 'the
Despenser'.
1. Thurstan de Queniborough, with the advice and consent of
'Radulphi fratris mei', confirmed the gift by his nephew Hugh de Berges
of 3 carucates in Burton on the Wolds, co. Leics. to Garendon abbey [BL
Lansdowne MS 415] .
2. Geoffrey 'the Despenser' [ name appearing as ' Gaufrido
dispensatore..',] was a witness to charters of the Earls of Chester,
together with others - including several with his brother Ivo de
Alspath [e.g., ' Gaufrido dispensatore et Ivone fratre suo...' ,
charter #82 ] ca. 1135-1153. Barraclough, The Charters of the
Anglo-Norman Earls of Chester, charters
#25, 35-37, 50, 55-59, 64, 73, 85, 99.
3. Ivo de Alspath is identified as 'Ivo son of Aschetil [or
Anketinus]' : 'Ivone filio Aschetilli', witness to confirmation of a
gift to St. Werburgh's abbey of Raby, co. Warwicks., ca. 1135-40
[Barraclough, charter #21 - from P.R.O., C.53 (Chancery Charter Rolls),
no. 73, m. 10]. As constable of Coventry castle, ca. 1144 under
Ranulf, Earl of Chester, he is identified as also being the brother of
Geoffrey: 'Ivone constabulario', witness to a grant in Coventry
together with
Thurstan Banaster and brother Geoffrey ['Gaufrido dispensatore']
[Barraclough, charter #72, cites B. L. Harl. MS. 7, ff. 101v-102].
4. This Aschetil is identified as the son of Hugh de Berges (or of
Prestwold), and would be the first cousin of any issue of his uncle
Ralph/Radulf de Queniborough.
I would suggest the 'Geoffrey son of Ralph' in question was
therefore a first cousin of Aschetil de Berges, and first cousin 1x
removed to Geoffrey 'dispensarius', son of Aschetil.
Cheers,
John
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Clive ~
Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.
I see there is an account of the history of Garendon Abbey,
Leicestershire in William Dugdale's great work, Monasticon Anglicanum,
5 (1825): 328, et seq. It may be viewed online at
http://www.monasticmatrix.com at the following weblink:
http://monasticmatrix.usc.edu/bibliogra ... il&id=2659
I notice that Dugdale mentions an early charter issued to Garendon
Abbey by Geoffrey son of Ralph de Loughborough:
pg. 330
"20. Carta Gauf. filii Radulphi de Lucteburg (sc. Loughborough) de
communa in bosco de Thorp Hanker et Garendon ex concessione comitis de
Winton; ex de clausis suis in Halliwellhaghe ab omni calumpnia liberis
habendis, ex. orig. pen. Ambr. Phil. fol. 39." END OF QUOTE.
Elsewhere on pg. 332, Dugdale presents an abstract of a confirmation
charter of King Edward III. Reference is made in the confirmation
charter to several earlier gifts made to Garendon Abbey at Haliwellhawe
by Robert and William de Torz, and Thomas le Despenser:
".... donationabus quas Robertus de Torz, Willielmus de Torz, et Thomas
Dispensarius fecurent praedictis monachis in feudo ipsius comitis de
Haliwellhawe."
Given that Thomas le Despenser had property at Loughborough and
evidently also at Haliwellhawe, I wonder if Geoffrey son of Ralph de
Loughborough named above who held property at Haliwellhawe is one of
Thomas le Despenser's near relations.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
"Clive West" wrote:
I recently came across the discussion on the "Origins of the Despensers" (the Despensers of Loughborough) held
<<<<<<<<< SNIP >>>>>>>>>>>
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Thomas le Despenser
Clive West wrote:
Any other documentary evidence? I have yet to see any.
I just don't see this connection as a viable alternative. Sure, strange
things sometimes happen, but even were you to prove that Thomas married
a Rohaise, this would not support a Foix connection. The name Rohaise
would be out of place in Foix, while you would also have to come up with
an explanation how such a daughter of a Midi count would come to marry
an Englishman of local significance, if even that. This is a connection
that will take direct evidence to overcome my skepticism, not just that
Thomas married someone named Rohese.
taf
But maybe it's an incorrect transcription of Rohese, (Thomas had a daughter of this name), in which case this gives support to the suggestion that Thomas was married to Rohese de Foix, daughter of Roger-Bernard de Foix and Cecily (see thread on this subject of Jan 2005). Does anybody know of any other documented evidence for this?
Any other documentary evidence? I have yet to see any.
I just don't see this connection as a viable alternative. Sure, strange
things sometimes happen, but even were you to prove that Thomas married
a Rohaise, this would not support a Foix connection. The name Rohaise
would be out of place in Foix, while you would also have to come up with
an explanation how such a daughter of a Midi count would come to marry
an Englishman of local significance, if even that. This is a connection
that will take direct evidence to overcome my skepticism, not just that
Thomas married someone named Rohese.
taf
-
Clive West
Re: Thomas le Despenser
I agree that it seems highly implausible that Thomas le Despenser should
have married a noblewoman from the south of France, but we shouldn't assume
that Thomas was necessarily an obscure nobody. After all his sons Hugo and
Geoffrey were both close advisors of Henry III.
To settle whether "Recuare" is a mistake for Rohese or some other name it
would be useful to see the original charter. It seems that the Garendon
cartulary is in two parts, the Lansdowne mss held by the British Library and
the Clayton mss at the Leicestershire RO. I' ll try to find out which of
these includes the relevant charter by Thomas.
Clive West
----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 6:01 AM
Subject: Re: Thomas le Despenser
have married a noblewoman from the south of France, but we shouldn't assume
that Thomas was necessarily an obscure nobody. After all his sons Hugo and
Geoffrey were both close advisors of Henry III.
To settle whether "Recuare" is a mistake for Rohese or some other name it
would be useful to see the original charter. It seems that the Garendon
cartulary is in two parts, the Lansdowne mss held by the British Library and
the Clayton mss at the Leicestershire RO. I' ll try to find out which of
these includes the relevant charter by Thomas.
Clive West
----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 6:01 AM
Subject: Re: Thomas le Despenser
Clive West wrote:
But maybe it's an incorrect transcription of Rohese, (Thomas had a
daughter of this name), in which case this gives support to the
suggestion that Thomas was married to Rohese de Foix, daughter of
Roger-Bernard de Foix and Cecily (see thread on this subject of Jan
2005). Does anybody know of any other documented evidence for this?
Any other documentary evidence? I have yet to see any.
I just don't see this connection as a viable alternative. Sure, strange
things sometimes happen, but even were you to prove that Thomas married a
Rohaise, this would not support a Foix connection. The name Rohaise would
be out of place in Foix, while you would also have to come up with an
explanation how such a daughter of a Midi count would come to marry an
Englishman of local significance, if even that. This is a connection that
will take direct evidence to overcome my skepticism, not just that Thomas
married someone named Rohese.
taf
______________________________