Steve Perkins pointed out to me that something is looking strange.
Gerald Paget is his wonderful (but not always correct) books on the ancestors of Prince Charles,
tells that
Alexander, 4th High Steward of Scotland was born in 1214 and had married Jean, daughter of James, Lord of Bute.
Sadly this Lord of Bute title is not in the Complete Peerage (at least I couldn't find it).
Does anyone (I do) have access to "The Highland Clans" by the flamboyant Sir Iain Moncreiffe of That Ilk together with David Hicks?
On the inside of the cover is a conjectural familytree which links many Scottish clans. Here is shown that Jean is the daughter of James (Seamus) who was slain in 1210.
James (Seamus)'s father is given Angus, Lord of Bute and Arran, slain in 1210.He is not to be found in CP under either Bute or Arran. As both father and son were slain in 1210----were they slain in the same battle? Which makes it wrong to call the son Lord of Bute (perhaps Master of Bute, which is something different).
But now we come to the real problem. If James was slain in 1210, when was Jean, his daughter born? Let us assume James's wife was pregnant with her and Jean was born in 1210.
Gerald Paget does give us the order of birth of her children, 1. James born circa 1243, then 2.Elizabeth and 3.Sir John Stewart of Bonkyl. This makes Jean about 33 years old when giving birth to a first child, as well as about 4 years older than her husband.
Does anyone have any idea what it should be?
With many thanks
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
Scotland - a peculiarity?
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Doug McDonald
Re: Scotland - a peculiarity?
Leo van de Pas wrote:
....
A note, p. 195, in "Alba, Celtic Scotland in the
Medieval Era" says that this attribution is now
thought wrong. The reference in the SP is Vol. V, p. 31.
Also see a note by John Ravilious in this newsgroup
on Nov. 27, 2005, who postulates a possible Comyn connection.
Doug McDonald
Steve Perkins pointed out to me that something is looking strange.
Gerald Paget is his wonderful (but not always correct) books on the ancestors of Prince Charles,
tells that
Alexander, 4th High Steward of Scotland was born in 1214 and had married Jean, daughter of James, Lord of Bute.
....
A note, p. 195, in "Alba, Celtic Scotland in the
Medieval Era" says that this attribution is now
thought wrong. The reference in the SP is Vol. V, p. 31.
Also see a note by John Ravilious in this newsgroup
on Nov. 27, 2005, who postulates a possible Comyn connection.
Doug McDonald
-
Diane Sheppard
Re: Scotland - a peculiarity?
Dear Leo and Doug:
SP covers the line in the coverage of the Macdonalds Lords of the Isles
(vol. 5, pp. 30-31). Acording to SP, Angus was Somerled's son.
Somerled died in November 1164 in Renfrew. Angus "inherited Bute." SP
does not refer to him as an Earl. Angus and three sons (including
James) were all killed in 1210 in a battle with the men of Skye (Source
Annals of Ulster). "James had a daughter Jean who married Alexander,
eldest son of Walter, steward of Scotland. Walter, son of Alexander
married Marjory Bruce whose son was Robert II." No other dates are
provided. The wives of Angus and James are also not named.
Hope this helps a little, Haappy New Year.
Diane Sheppard
SP covers the line in the coverage of the Macdonalds Lords of the Isles
(vol. 5, pp. 30-31). Acording to SP, Angus was Somerled's son.
Somerled died in November 1164 in Renfrew. Angus "inherited Bute." SP
does not refer to him as an Earl. Angus and three sons (including
James) were all killed in 1210 in a battle with the men of Skye (Source
Annals of Ulster). "James had a daughter Jean who married Alexander,
eldest son of Walter, steward of Scotland. Walter, son of Alexander
married Marjory Bruce whose son was Robert II." No other dates are
provided. The wives of Angus and James are also not named.
Hope this helps a little, Haappy New Year.
Diane Sheppard
-
Gjest
Re: Scotland - a peculiarity?
Hi
I am rather reluctant to use Burke Peerage but in the 1970 edition page 1872
under Moray it states
Alexander m Jean, hieress of the Isles of Bute and Arran, dau of James (who
with his father and brothers was k by the Skye men in 1210), son of Angus,
Lord of Bute and Arran (yr son of Somerled, King of the South Isles)
looks as if Burke has used the entry from SP since it matches Diane's
posting
cheers
Simon
Diane Sheppard writes:
I am rather reluctant to use Burke Peerage but in the 1970 edition page 1872
under Moray it states
Alexander m Jean, hieress of the Isles of Bute and Arran, dau of James (who
with his father and brothers was k by the Skye men in 1210), son of Angus,
Lord of Bute and Arran (yr son of Somerled, King of the South Isles)
looks as if Burke has used the entry from SP since it matches Diane's
posting
cheers
Simon
Diane Sheppard writes:
Dear Leo and Doug:
SP covers the line in the coverage of the Macdonalds Lords of the Isles
(vol. 5, pp. 30-31). Acording to SP, Angus was Somerled's son.
Somerled died in November 1164 in Renfrew. Angus "inherited Bute." SP
does not refer to him as an Earl. Angus and three sons (including
James) were all killed in 1210 in a battle with the men of Skye (Source
Annals of Ulster). "James had a daughter Jean who married Alexander,
eldest son of Walter, steward of Scotland. Walter, son of Alexander
married Marjory Bruce whose son was Robert II." No other dates are
provided. The wives of Angus and James are also not named.
Hope this helps a little, Haappy New Year.
Diane Sheppard
-
grothenwell
Re: Scotland - a peculiarity?
fairthorne@breathe.com wrote:
Hi
I am rather reluctant to use Burke Peerage but in the 1970 edition page 1872
under Moray it states
Alexander m Jean, hieress of the Isles of Bute and Arran, dau of James (who
with his father and brothers was k by the Skye men in 1210), son of Angus,
Lord of Bute and Arran (yr son of Somerled, King of the South Isles)
looks as if Burke has used the entry from SP since it matches Diane's
posting
cheers
Simon
Diane Sheppard writes:
Dear Leo and Doug:
SP covers the line in the coverage of the Macdonalds Lords of the Isles
(vol. 5, pp. 30-31). Acording to SP, Angus was Somerled's son.
Somerled died in November 1164 in Renfrew. Angus "inherited Bute." SP
does not refer to him as an Earl. Angus and three sons (including
James) were all killed in 1210 in a battle with the men of Skye (Source
Annals of Ulster). "James had a daughter Jean who married Alexander,
eldest son of Walter, steward of Scotland. Walter, son of Alexander
married Marjory Bruce whose son was Robert II." No other dates are
provided. The wives of Angus and James are also not named.
Hope this helps a little, Haappy New Year.
Diane Sheppard
-
grothenwell
Re: Scotland - a peculiarity?
Hi,
My second post as the first appears to have disappeared!
Sorry I am not a very experienced genealogist as appears to be the norm
on this site, but I do find it very interesting. Regarding this topic I
believe I have Jean of Bute as an ancestor, and from somewhere I have
noted her "surname" as Macrory. Unfortunately I have not noted where I
recieved this information, but I thought it might help with the topic.
Thanks,
Grothenwell
My second post as the first appears to have disappeared!
Sorry I am not a very experienced genealogist as appears to be the norm
on this site, but I do find it very interesting. Regarding this topic I
believe I have Jean of Bute as an ancestor, and from somewhere I have
noted her "surname" as Macrory. Unfortunately I have not noted where I
recieved this information, but I thought it might help with the topic.
Thanks,
Grothenwell