Wife of Sir Robert de Roos, of Wark, Northumberland

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Gjest

Wife of Sir Robert de Roos, of Wark, Northumberland

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 des 2005 17:45:02

Friday, 30 December, 2005



Dear Doug, Adrian, Chris, Doug, et al.,

Many thanks to all for an interesting series of posts, and
bringing what appears to be another interesting descent (and
issues re: same) to light. I am still in the process of
digesting same, but wanted to add the following for
consideration.

The following chart does not deal with certain issues (e.g.,
the order of marriage of Christian Bertram to de Penbury and
William de Ros of Downham - or for that matter, if William de
Ros’ son and heir William was a son of Christian Bertram [this
would make the Ros marriage her 2nd]). However, it does work
with the following:

1. Ela of Salisbury, born ca. 1187 and m. (young) before
8 Sept 1197, could have had a daughter - Mary - born
say 1205/1212.

2. Mary Longespee, conjectured daughter of William
Longespee and Ela, if born in that range, could have
married Sir Robert de Ros say 1219/1225, and had an
eldest daughter (probably Isabel, future wife of Sir
Roger de Merlay and Sir Adam de Everingham) born say
1220/1226.

3. Isabel de Ros, marrying 1st to Sir Roger de Merlay,
had her eldest daughter Mary de Merlay sometime before
10 Jan 1241/42 (she was aged 24 ‘and more’ at her
father’s IPM, 10 Jan 1265/66). Assuming Mary was born
during 1241, Isabel de Ros was possibly aged between
15 and 21 at the time (and more likely in the middle
of this range).


[NOTE: the following chart is conjectural and for
discussion purposes only. Conjectured links are
shown: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ]



William ‘Longespee’ = Ela of
E of Salisbury I Salisbury
m. bef 8 Sept 1197 I b. ca. 1187
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _I______________
I III
Mary = Sir Robert de <siblings> Roger de = Agnes
I Ros, of Wark Bertram I
i d. ca. 1269 of Mitford I
I ____________________I
___I__________________________ I __________________________
I I _____I_______ I I
I I I I I I
Isabel Ida = 1) Roger Christian = William Sir Robert
= 1) ca. I Bertram Bertram de Ros de Ros
I 1241 I bef 3 May of Downham of Wark
I Roger de I 1252 (eldest son = Margaret
I Merlay I - disinherited) de Brus
I Agnes I
I Bertram I
I (dsp) __I
I___________ I
________I________________________ ________I___
I I I I I
Mary Isabella Alice Robert William
de Merlay de Merlay de Merlay de Ros de Ros
b. bef b. bef 4 b. bef 4 of Wark of
4 Dec Dec 1255 Dec 1257 (and Sanquhar, Kendal
1241 = 1) Robert = Robert Nithsdale)
= 1) Walter de Eure de = Laura
de Bolebec 2) Robert de Thweng (de Baliol ?)
2) William Somerville
de Greystoke




It appears that the younger son of Sir Robert de Ros and Mary
Longespee, 'Robert de Ros, junior', was one of the sureties for
William de Kyme in a complaint by William Bardolf in 1253 [Murphy,
Yorkshire Feet of Fines: Pleas of the Crown 31-32]. He would
presumably have been born before 1233, assuming he was ‘of age’
went acting as a surety: This would work well with an elder
sister - Isabel - being born say 1220/1226.

One additional if important item: I would be remiss if I did
not note that Mary de Merlay, eldest daughter of Isabel de Ros,
was likely named after a grandparent. As her paternal grandmother
was Ada of Fife, this lends further support to Sir Robert de Ros’
wife being named Mary.

Cheers, and Happy New Year to all.

John *

Chris Phillips

Re: Wife of Sir Robert de Roos, of Wark, Northumberland

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 29 des 2005 19:37:00

John P. Ravilious wrote:
The following chart does not deal with certain issues (e.g.,
the order of marriage of Christian Bertram to de Penbury and
William de Ros of Downham - or for that matter, if William de
Ros' son and heir William was a son of Christian Bertram [this
would make the Ros marriage her 2nd]).

I think it's clear that the Ros marriage must come first, as Christine and
her husband Robert de Penbury appear in connection with the Ros manor of
Mindrum, in which she presumably had a dower interest.

Also, I don't know of any record of descendants of William de Ros surviving
after Ellis de Penbury is named as her heir, so there is probably no
difficulty with William being Christine's son.

But it does concern me a bit if we go too far in speculating about the
possibility of Robert's wife being a Longespee without any evidence that
there is even an onomastic argument in its favour.

Chris Phillips

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