Wife of Sir Robert de Roos, of Wark, Northumberland

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Douglas Richardson

Wife of Sir Robert de Roos, of Wark, Northumberland

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 27 des 2005 01:11:57

Dear Newsgroup ~

Sometime ago, Linda Jack posted a record pertaining to the marriage of
Mary Longespée, a hitherto unnoticed daughter of William Longespée,
Earl of Salisbury (illegitimate son of King Henry II of England). A
copy of Linda's good message is copied below. In her post, Linda Jack
cited a record which mentions Mary Longespée's marriage c. 1226/7, but
the name of Mary Longespée's husband is unknown.

I haven't encountered any further reference to Mary Longespée in my
research. However, it seems entirely possible to me that Mary
Longespée was the unknown wife of Sir Robert de Roos (died 1267/69),
of Wark, Northumberland. Among other things, I note that Sir Robert de
Roos had a daughter, Ida de Roos, wife successively of Roger Bertram
(living 1272), Robert de Neville (died 1282), and John Fitz Marmaduke.
The name, Ida, is a well known given name which runs in the Longespée
family. Its occurence among the children of Sir Robert de Roos is
certainly a good clue to the identity of his wife. The given name,
Mary, also appears among Sir Robert de Roos' Merlay grandchildren,
which evidence is also suggestive, as the name Mary was a bit rare in
this time period among high born families.

Complete Peerage, 11 (1949): 119, footnote g (sub Ros) indicates that
Sir Robert de Roos had Wark, Northumberland settled on him and his
heirs by a lawful wife by his father in 1225-1226, which grant was
confirmed by King Henry III 15 August 1227. The settlement of Wark was
possibly made in anticipation of Sir Robert de Roos' marriage. If so,
it would seems that Sir Robert de Roos married about the same time as
did Mary Longespée.

One caveat. Linda Jack states that Mary Longespée married in 1226-7,
but elsewhere she says the record she cites is from 11 John. 11 John
would be 1210-11, not 1226-7. Perhaps Linda Jack can explain this
discrepancy for us.

Comments are invited.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

+ + + + + + + + + + +
COPY OF LINDA JACK'S EARLIER POST

Linda Jack <linda_j...@earthlink.net>

I think that I have run across another daughter of William Longespee, a
daughter Mary, who was apparently married in 1226-1227. The source is
Rotuli Litterarum Clausarum in Turri Londinensi, vol II, 1844, Thos
Hardy, ed. , p. 200. The item reads something to the effect of "The
baliffs of John de Monem in the New Forest are ordered to give Ela
Countess of Salisbury one deer in their baliwick as a gift of the Lord
King at the marriage of Mary the daughter of William former earl of
Salisbury." I can't reproduce the correct marks, but the Latin is an
approximation of " D' damo dato. Mand' est Ballis Jonis de Monem de
Nova Foresta qd hre fac Ele Comitsse Sarr j. damu i balla sua de dono
dui R. ad. nuptias Marie fil W. q nda Com Sarr. T. ut s." If anyone
has the original at hand, a check on the translation would be
appreciated.

The entry is for the 11th year of John's reign which I understand to
have begun on October 28,1226 so this would have been after
Longespee's
death, yet it seems odd that a daughter, Mary, has not surfaced
before. Has anyone seen her before? Any possible husbands at the
time
of this marriage? I am working from a photocopy I made some time ago,
so I don't have the source at hand to see if there are any other
records
around the same time that may shed some light on Mary.

Thanks for any suggestions, Linda

alden@mindspring.com

Re: Wife of Sir Robert de Roos, of Wark, Northumberland

Legg inn av alden@mindspring.com » 27 des 2005 01:52:59

FYI

6. Linda Jack
Jan 24 2003, 12:44 pm show options
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
From: linda_j...@earthlink.net (Linda Jack) - Find messages by this
author
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 17:43:26 +0000 (UTC)
Local: Fri, Jan 24 2003 12:43 pm
Subject: Mary, daughter of the earl of Salisbury
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Dear Adrian, Ann & Chris,

Thanks for pointing out that is was indeed Henry III not John who was
king in 1226. A hazard of posting too late at night. Linda

alden@mindspring.com

Re: Wife of Sir Robert de Roos, of Wark, Northumberland

Legg inn av alden@mindspring.com » 27 des 2005 02:05:01

btw

excellent deductions, perhaps some proof can be found!


Doug Smith

Douglas Richardson

Re: Wife of Sir Robert de Roos, of Wark, Northumberland

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 27 des 2005 03:19:25

Dear Doug ~

Thank you for the kind words. Much appreciated.

As for proof, under normal circunstances, if Mary Longespée was indeed
the wife of Sir Robert de Roos of Wark, we would expect to find other
evidence of the Roos and Longespée families being associated in
contemporary records.

The first such record that I've found so far is the statement in
Complete Peerage, 11 (1949): 122 which reveals that Robert de Roos III
"appears to have done service in Wales under the Earl of Lincoln" in
1295. The Earl of Lincoln in 1295, of course, was Henry de Lacy, whose
wife was Margaret Longespée, the great-niece of Mary Longespée. So
we have a definite match with this record.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

alden@mindspring.com wrote:
btw

excellent deductions, perhaps some proof can be found!


Doug Smith

Douglas Richardson

Re: Wife of Sir Robert de Roos, of Wark, Northumberland

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 28 des 2005 23:19:08

Dear Newsgroup ~

For interest's sake, I've listed below the numerous 17th Century New
World immigrants who descend from Sir Robert de Roos (died 1267/9), of
Wark, Northumberland, which individual I've tentatively proposed as the
husband of Mary Longespée, daughter of Sir William Longespée (died
1226), Earl of Salisbury.

1. Robert Abell.

2. William Asfordby.

3. William Bladen.

4. Thomas Booth.

5. Joseph Bolles.

6. Obadiah Bruen.

7. Stephen Bull.

8. Charles Calvert.

9. Edward Carleton.

10. Kenelm Cheseldine.

11. Grace Chetwode.

12. Henry Corbin.

13. William Farrer.

14. Muriel Gurdon.

15. Henry, Jane & Nicholas Lowe.

16. Anne & Katherine Marbury.

17. Philip & Thomas Nelson.

18. Thomas Owsley.

19. Richard Saltonstall.

20. Diana & Grey Skipwith.

21. Mary Johanna Somerset.

22. William Wentworth.

John Ravilious informs me that the immigrants, Robert Peyton and John
and Elizabeth Harleston, also have conjectured descents from Sir Robert
de Roos, through the Sothill and Salvain families.

If anyone knows of any immigrants who are missing from the above list,
please let me know here on the newsgroup.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Chris Phillips

Re: Wife of Sir Robert de Roos, of Wark, Northumberland

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 29 des 2005 00:09:12

Douglas Richardson wrote:
<<
Among other things, I note that Sir Robert de
Roos had a daughter, Ida de Roos, wife successively of Roger Bertram
(living 1272), Robert de Neville (died 1282), and John Fitz Marmaduke.

Is there anything to indicate that the wife who survived Roger Bertram, and
went on to marry two further husbands, was the same wife to whom he was
married by 1241?

If not, then it hasn't been established that Sir Robert de Ros had a
daughter named Ida.

Chris Phillips

Chris Phillips

Re: Wife of Sir Robert de Roos, of Wark, Northumberland

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 30 des 2005 00:02:06

Douglas Richardson wrote:
<<
One caveat. Linda Jack states that Mary Longespée married in 1226-7,
but elsewhere she says the record she cites is from 11 John. 11 John
would be 1210-11, not 1226-7. Perhaps Linda Jack can explain this
discrepancy for us.

Actually, Linda did kindly provide a more precise date than the one she
posted for the order concerning Mary's marriage. The order was dated 8
September 1227. See:
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/ ... html#p381b

So Mary's marriage apparently took place a year or two later than the
settlement of Wark on Robert de Ros and his heirs by a lawful wife, which
you mentioned in your previous message.

Chris Phillips

Gjest

query re Isabel wife of Robert de Brus

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 des 2005 02:08:02

Hi Folks

I have a query about Isabel daughter of David Earl of Huntingdon who married
Robert de Brus

SP vol II p 430 says that she was born about 1206
but also that her son Robert the Bruce was born in 1210

the two events look rather close together

cheers

Simon

Gjest

Re: Wife of Sir Robert de Roos, of Wark, Northumberland

Legg inn av Gjest » 31 des 2005 22:23:34

Dear Chris, Douglas, and all.
I will not have access to my library for another week or so, but see
in the ITER database that there are four articles in Notes and Queries
(Oxford) that may possibly be on topic. These years do not appear to
be available online, but please advise if anyone knows of a source for
them. Othwerwise I will look these up in the printed volumes when I am
able. Best wishes to all for a Happy New Year. Linda

Personal Author: E., D. C., Mary, daughter of Wm. de Roos [article] p.
495 in
Notes and queries, Series 4, vol. 12, alt. no. 312, (1873)

Personal Author: E., D. C., Ralph de Cobham: Mary de Roos [article] in
Notes and queries, Series 5, vol. 2, alt. no. 28, (1874)

Personal Author: Elwes, D. C., Ralph de Cobham: Mary de Roos [article],
p. 236-237 in Notes and queries, Series 5, vol. 2, alt. no. 38,
(1874)

Personal Author: A., E. H., William de Roos, of Yolton [article], p.
307 in Notes and queries, Series 5, vol. 9, alt. no. 225, (1878).


































Chris Phillips wrote:
Douglas Richardson wrote:

One caveat. Linda Jack states that Mary Longespée married in 1226-7,
but elsewhere she says the record she cites is from 11 John. 11 John
would be 1210-11, not 1226-7. Perhaps Linda Jack can explain this
discrepancy for us.


Actually, Linda did kindly provide a more precise date than the one she
posted for the order concerning Mary's marriage. The order was dated 8
September 1227. See:
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/ ... html#p381b

So Mary's marriage apparently took place a year or two later than the
settlement of Wark on Robert de Ros and his heirs by a lawful wife, which
you mentioned in your previous message.

Chris Phillips

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