de Refham of London

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de Refham of London

Legg inn av Gjest » 25 des 2005 23:35:46

Taken largrely from the Historical Gazeteer of London before the Great
Fire:

1. N [?de Refham - i.e., Reepham, Norfolk]; issue:

2a. Joan, married Robert de Thelnetham alias le Callere; mercer of
London; ff 1289-1323; issue:

3. John le Callere, mercer of London; ff 1333

2b. Sir Richer de Refham, alias le Botoner alias le Mercer; ff 1290;
surety for the London parliamentary elections, 1296; mercer; Alderman
of London; mayor, 1310; died 1328; married Joan (ff 1343), sister of
Walter Furner. Issue:

3a. John de Refham, alderman of London; ff 1307-1343; dead by 1348 [NB
not to be identified with John de Refham, fishmonger of London, who
died in 1352 - he is stated in his apprenticeship record to be son of
one Richard Skot]; married Margaret, ff 1328. Issue:

4a. John de Refham, ff 1343; died without surviving issue by 1352;
married Maud, daughter of Henry de Seccheford.

4b. Edward de Refham, quitclaimed to his brother John, 1343; ff 1352;
probably the youngest brother

4c. Roger de Refham, quitclaimed to his brother John, 1343; his heir,
1352; issue:

5. Margaret de Refham, said probably to have held the family properties
in London with her husband by 1363; married Thomas Tudenham (son of
William Tudenham), mercer of London, died December 1371.

[Roskell, in HoP sub Francis, states that Thomas Tudenham's widow
married secondly to Sir Adam Francis in 1372. The Historical Gazeteer
says that Adam Francis's first wife Margaret was probably the daughter
of Thomas Tudenham and Margaret de Refham, given her children's
"lifespans". Adam Francis's IPM from 1417 states that he held various
London properties by the courtesy of England, i.e. they were the
inheritance of his first wife, who was the mother of Adam's children
(Adam, who died in infancy; Thomasina, who was a nun; Agnes, wife
successively of Thomas de Basing, William Staundon and Sir William
Porter, and Elizabeth, wife of Sir Thomas Charlton). The IPM says that
Agnes was aged 30 and more in 1417 - i.e. born before 1387, and
Elizabeth was aged 24 and more - i.e. born circa 1392; Roskell states
that Margaret their mother was dead by 1393 (perhaps her death was
consequent upon Elizabeth's birth). From a chronological perspective,
it seems there is no good reason to doubt that Margaret Francis was
widow of Thomas Tudenham. If she was born circa 1350 and married young
to Thomas Tudenham, she could have been child-bearing as late as 1392.]

MAR

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: de Refham of London

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 26 des 2005 15:21:59

In message of 25 Dec, mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:

<snip>

[Roskell, in HoP sub Francis, states that Thomas Tudenham's widow
married secondly to Sir Adam Francis in 1372. The Historical Gazeteer
says that Adam Francis's first wife Margaret was probably the daughter
of Thomas Tudenham and Margaret de Refham, given her children's
"lifespans". Adam Francis's IPM from 1417 states that he held various
London properties by the courtesy of England, i.e. they were the
inheritance of his first wife, who was the mother of Adam's children
(Adam, who died in infancy; Thomasina, who was a nun; Agnes, wife
successively of Thomas de Basing, William Staundon and Sir William
Porter, and Elizabeth, wife of Sir Thomas Charlton). The IPM says that
Agnes was aged 30 and more in 1417 - i.e. born before 1387, and
Elizabeth was aged 24 and more - i.e. born circa 1392; Roskell states
that Margaret their mother was dead by 1393 (perhaps her death was
consequent upon Elizabeth's birth). From a chronological perspective,
it seems there is no good reason to doubt that Margaret Francis was
widow of Thomas Tudenham. If she was born circa 1350 and married young
to Thomas Tudenham, she could have been child-bearing as late as 1392.]

Interestingly in the "Cartularies of John Pyel and Adam Fraunceys" by S
J O'Connor (pub RHistS 1993), he states, p. 95, that Sir Adam Fraunceys'
wives were Margaret Osterle and Margaret, dau of Sir John Holland.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Gjest

Re: de Refham of London

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 des 2005 02:24:34

Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:

Interestingly in the "Cartularies of John Pyel and Adam Fraunceys" by S
J O'Connor (pub RHistS 1993), he states, p. 95, that Sir Adam Fraunceys'
wives were Margaret Osterle and Margaret, dau of Sir John Holland.

Thanks Tim. I shall have to do some digging to try to get to the
bottom of this discrepancy. I wonder whether the 'Cartularies' [I must
lay my hands on a copy] and HoP cite the same source for the Osterle
connection.

MAR

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: de Refham of London

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 27 des 2005 10:52:46

In message of 27 Dec, mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:

Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:

Interestingly in the "Cartularies of John Pyel and Adam Fraunceys" by S
J O'Connor (pub RHistS 1993), he states, p. 95, that Sir Adam Fraunceys'
wives were Margaret Osterle and Margaret, dau of Sir John Holland.

Thanks Tim. I shall have to do some digging to try to get to the
bottom of this discrepancy. I wonder whether the 'Cartularies' [I must
lay my hands on a copy] and HoP cite the same source for the Osterle
connection.

Regrettably O'Connor gives no sources for these assertions, though he
does confirm, p. 22, that Margaret Osterle was the widow of Thomas
Tudenham and tells that Thomas was the son of William, mercer, which
Wm. was one of the wardens named with Adam Fraunceys in the account
book of 1347. Thos T. predeceased his father in 1372 and Adam junior
married Thos T.'s widow shortly after that.

The index shows no reference to Margaret in any of the Fraunceys or Pyel
charters.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Sutliff

Re: de Refham of London

Legg inn av Sutliff » 27 des 2005 20:45:40

Margaret Osterle's putative parents were John and Joan Osterle of
Trumpington, Cambridgeshire. Has anyone checked VCH Cambs to see what it
says of any connection to Adam Fraunceys/Francis? For what it is worth, I
wonder of Sir Hugh Fraunceys of Giffards, Suffolk whose daughter Isabel d.
1452 married Thomas Heigham d. 1481 might be related to the London Fraunceys
family rather than the Foremark family?

HS

"Tim Powys-Lybbe" <tim@powys.org> wrote in message
news:333fc3df4d.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk...
In message of 27 Dec, mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:


Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:

Interestingly in the "Cartularies of John Pyel and Adam Fraunceys" by S
J O'Connor (pub RHistS 1993), he states, p. 95, that Sir Adam
Fraunceys'
wives were Margaret Osterle and Margaret, dau of Sir John Holland.

Thanks Tim. I shall have to do some digging to try to get to the
bottom of this discrepancy. I wonder whether the 'Cartularies' [I must
lay my hands on a copy] and HoP cite the same source for the Osterle
connection.

Regrettably O'Connor gives no sources for these assertions, though he
does confirm, p. 22, that Margaret Osterle was the widow of Thomas
Tudenham and tells that Thomas was the son of William, mercer, which
Wm. was one of the wardens named with Adam Fraunceys in the account
book of 1347. Thos T. predeceased his father in 1372 and Adam junior
married Thos T.'s widow shortly after that.

The index shows no reference to Margaret in any of the Fraunceys or Pyel
charters.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Gjest

Re: de Refham of London

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 des 2005 03:56:16

Sutliff wrote:

Margaret Osterle's putative parents were John and Joan Osterle of
Trumpington, Cambridgeshire. Has anyone checked VCH Cambs to see what it
says of any connection to Adam Fraunceys/Francis?

I have checked VCH Cambs and various other sources, and have been
unable to find a reference to any Osterle[y]s of Cambridgeshire. I
have seen an online reference to a late 19th century work on South
Mimms which is cited as a source for Margaret's identification as an
Osterle, but this, of course, is at best a secondary source.

Gjest

Re: de Refham of London

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 des 2005 03:41:03

Here is an interesting twist on the Fraunceys (London) line from Elijah
Williams' "Early Holborn and the Legal Quarter of London"

Vol I p 934

"The land lying west of what is now Bartletts Buildings was in 1275
in tenure of Bartholomew of Westminster, who had there a managium and
three houses facing Holborn with a shop at the back and some contiguous
houses facing New Street, now known as Fetter Lane. There was a
quit-rent of 13s. 4d. a year due from the property to the heirs of Adam
de Basing, which in 1356 was sold to Adam Chamberlayn, otherwise known
as Adam Fraunceys, who had been Mayor in 1353, owned the property next
on the west stretching to Faitors Lane, founded the Guildhall Chapel
College, was elected Mayor of the Staple in 1358, and died in 1374
possessed of very considerable wealth......"

This, of course, refers to Adam Fraunceys who m. Agnes and was father
of Sir Adam, whose wife Margaret is under discussion. Can anyone
suggest the reason for him being called Adam Chamberlayne?

The deed is transcribed from Hustings Rolls 84, No. 45, 1 Feb 1355/6.
It is on p. 941 of the book.

**********
Vol 1 p 950

A chart pedigree of the descendants of Sir Adam Fraunceys (d. 1374) is
on p. 950. Pertinent to the ongoing discussion is the statement that
Sir Adam Fraunceys (d. 1417) m. Margaret, da. and heir of John
Cornwall. O'Connor gives no source for this surname. Another
thought: might he mean Cornhill? We came to the conclusion that the
"Cornwall" marriage of Henry Frowick, was meant to be
"Cornhill." I only have a few pages from this publication, so it
might be advisable to check further, if someone has access to it.
Roskell and O'Connor don't mention this surname for a wife of Sir
Adam, and I question its validity without further evidence.

Gjest

Re: de Refham of London

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 des 2005 04:43:20

mardicar@yahoo.com wrote:

Here is an interesting twist on the Fraunceys (London) line from Elijah
Williams' "Early Holborn and the Legal Quarter of London"

This, of course, refers to Adam Fraunceys who m. Agnes and was father
of Sir Adam, whose wife Margaret is under discussion. Can anyone
suggest the reason for him being called Adam Chamberlayne?

Thanks, Mardi - the plot thickens.

I wonder whether the elder Adam Fraunceys's alias indicates that he
served as in the office of Chamberlain of London?

Perhaps a review of the early Court of Hustings wills would be
instructive - does anyone know whether (apart from the calendar)
transcriptions exist?

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: de Refham of London

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 30 des 2005 11:36:22

In message of 29 Dec, mardicar@yahoo.com wrote:

Here is an interesting twist on the Fraunceys (London) line from Elijah
Williams' "Early Holborn and the Legal Quarter of London"

Vol I p 934

"The land lying west of what is now Bartletts Buildings was in 1275
in tenure of Bartholomew of Westminster, who had there a managium and
three houses facing Holborn with a shop at the back and some contiguous
houses facing New Street, now known as Fetter Lane. There was a
quit-rent of 13s. 4d. a year due from the property to the heirs of Adam
de Basing, which in 1356 was sold to Adam Chamberlayn, otherwise known
as Adam Fraunceys, who had been Mayor in 1353, owned the property next
on the west stretching to Faitors Lane, founded the Guildhall Chapel
College, was elected Mayor of the Staple in 1358, and died in 1374
possessed of very considerable wealth......"

This, of course, refers to Adam Fraunceys who m. Agnes and was father
of Sir Adam, whose wife Margaret is under discussion. Can anyone
suggest the reason for him being called Adam Chamberlayne?

No. Though there was an Edward Chamberleyn, a parson of Portland,
Dorset who was associated with both John Pyel and Adam Fraunceys in
some transactions, probably as a trustee of sorts. See the Pyel and
Fraunceys Cartularies, p. 29 and charters P27 and F1255.

The deed is transcribed from Hustings Rolls 84, No. 45, 1 Feb 1355/6.
It is on p. 941 of the book.

**********
Vol 1 p 950

A chart pedigree of the descendants of Sir Adam Fraunceys (d. 1374) is
on p. 950. Pertinent to the ongoing discussion is the statement that
Sir Adam Fraunceys (d. 1417) m. Margaret, da. and heir of John
Cornwall. O'Connor gives no source for this surname. Another
thought: might he mean Cornhill? We came to the conclusion that the
"Cornwall" marriage of Henry Frowick, was meant to be
"Cornhill." I only have a few pages from this publication, so it
might be advisable to check further, if someone has access to it.
Roskell and O'Connor don't mention this surname for a wife of Sir
Adam, and I question its validity without further evidence.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Janet

Question

Legg inn av Janet » 30 des 2005 15:52:02

Of old when son is mention it goes like this Robert ap Paul Right?

Then what is daughter called?

Janet

Svar

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