CP Addition: Eleanor de Montagu, wife of Sir John de Dinham
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Gjest
CP Addition: Eleanor de Montagu, wife of Sir John de Dinham
Saturday, 17 December, 2005
Hello All,
The diary of Richard Symonds is a well known source for studies
of the struggle between Cromwell and King Charles I in the 1640’s,
but also supplies some interesting non-military information. This
includes a detailed description of the windows of Exeter Cathedral,
including in some cases the family names of those whose arms are
depicted, shown as being recorded in 1644. These are most likely
the arms of individuals (in most cases, married couples) who were
benefactors of the cathedral.
Among the arms depicted, a number of married couples can be
identified. These include Sir Nicholas Carew (d. bef 20 Apr 1448)
and his wife Joan Courtenay ["COURTENAY, with a label of three
points azure." followed by "Or, three lions passant in pale sable
[CAREW]."], and Sir William de Montagu (d. 30 Jan 1343/4] and his
wife Katherine de Grandison ["GRANDISON." followed by
"MONTACUTE."] [1]. In particular, the arms described in the sixth
window (p. 85) are of interest, despite having only a partial
identification provided by the editor:
" Sixth window:
A similar coat to the last.
Argent, three fusils conjoined in fess gules, a bordure sable.
Or, three lions passant sable.
Gules, three fusils conjoined in fess ermine [DINHAM]. " [2]
The first pair of arms are probably those of a gentleman of the
Carew family ["Or, three lions passant sable."] and his wife; but
of special interest are those of the second pair of arms. The male
of the pair is clearly of the family of Dinham, of Hartland, Devon
& c. The arms of the lady in question ("Argent, three fusils
conjoined in fess gules, a bordure sable."] are those of Sir John
de Montagu, Lord Montagu (d. bef 5 Mar 1389/90), younger brother of
William, 2nd Earl of Salisbury, younger son of Sir William de
Montagu and Katherine de Grandison (see above) and husband of
Margaret de Monthermer [3].
The pairing of these arms clearly identify (without names) a
married couple, i.e. a male Dinham and a daughter of Sir John de
Montagu. This can only be Sir John de Dinham (d. 25 Dec 1428) and
his first wife, Eleanor (aka Ellen) de Montagu, the subject of
several prior SGM threads [4].
This is the first direct evidence of Sir John de Dinham’s wife
being identified as a daughter of Sir John de Montagu. In
combination with the circumstantial evidence previously provided in
the SGM posts referenced below, this identification can now be
classified as certain.
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
[1] C. E. Long, ed., Richard Symonds's Diary of the Marches of
the Royal (New York: Cambridge University Press, 1997), p. 85.
[2] Ibid. The complete text of page 85, found at the URL indicated
below, is as follows:
" 1644.]
Second window:
Quarterly FRANCE and ENGLAND, a label of three points argent.
Argent, three fusils conjoined in fess gules.
COURTENAY, with a label of three points azure.
Gules, fretty or.
Or, three lions passant in pale sable [CAREW].
Fourth window:
Or, a chevron between three escallops azure.
Argent, two bendlets wavy sable [STAPYLDON].
Ermine, three chevrons gules.
Azure, three bends argent.
Per chevron gules and sable, three keys erect, wards facing
the dexter side, or.
The picture of a monke:
Mag'r. Tho. de Hacteley me fecit.
Fifth window:
Quarterly, FRANCE and ENGLAND.
The same with a label of three points argent.
Gules, three lions passant or, a label of three points each
charged with three fleurs-de-lis or [EARLS and DUKES
OF LANCASTER].
Or, a chevron between three escallops azure.
Azure, three quatrefoils argent.
FERRERS.
Per fess gules and azure, three crescents argent.
Sixth window:
A similar coat to the last.
Argent, three fusils conjoined in fess gules, a bordure sable.
Or, three lions passant sable.
Gules, three fusils conjoined in fess ermine [DINHAM].
These are aloft in the north side of the body of the church:
A chevron between three keys erect, the wards pointing to the
dexter side or.
GRANDISON.
Argent, three chevrons sable.
MONTACUTE.
Argent, three bars gules.
Second window, beginning eastward:
MONTACUTE, with a bordure sable.
Argent, a fess sable, a bordure gules. "
URL
http://books.google.com/books?ie=ISO-88 ... Flr%3D%26q%
3Ddinham%2Bmontacute&sig=HekYtNXl7m5uwWlmSLw1En0XvJA
[3] These arms are as described in several sources, including
Ald S. S. Campion, J.P., "Northampton Town Hall: Its Story Told
By Itself" (Northampton: W. Mark & Co. Ltd. Printer &
Publishers, 1925 ) available at
http://northamptoncastle.homeip.net/nor ... l/book.htm
Also see "Holy Trinity Blackburn, The Ceiling" as described at
http://members.aol.com/htblackburn/htbceiling.htm
[4] See J. Ravilious, <John Dinham (d. 1428) and his 1st wife, Elen
[Montagu ?] >, SGM, 21 Feb, 2004. J. Ravilious, <CP Addition:
Eleanor (Elena) de Montagu, wife of Sir John de Dinham>, SGM, 27
March 2004. J. Ravilious, <The Lady and The Crown>, SGM, 3 Sept
2005. Also note that Leo van de Pas’ website,
http://www.genealogics.org, identifies Eleanor de Montagu as
indicated (Genealogics # I00387511).
* John P. Ravilious
Hello All,
The diary of Richard Symonds is a well known source for studies
of the struggle between Cromwell and King Charles I in the 1640’s,
but also supplies some interesting non-military information. This
includes a detailed description of the windows of Exeter Cathedral,
including in some cases the family names of those whose arms are
depicted, shown as being recorded in 1644. These are most likely
the arms of individuals (in most cases, married couples) who were
benefactors of the cathedral.
Among the arms depicted, a number of married couples can be
identified. These include Sir Nicholas Carew (d. bef 20 Apr 1448)
and his wife Joan Courtenay ["COURTENAY, with a label of three
points azure." followed by "Or, three lions passant in pale sable
[CAREW]."], and Sir William de Montagu (d. 30 Jan 1343/4] and his
wife Katherine de Grandison ["GRANDISON." followed by
"MONTACUTE."] [1]. In particular, the arms described in the sixth
window (p. 85) are of interest, despite having only a partial
identification provided by the editor:
" Sixth window:
A similar coat to the last.
Argent, three fusils conjoined in fess gules, a bordure sable.
Or, three lions passant sable.
Gules, three fusils conjoined in fess ermine [DINHAM]. " [2]
The first pair of arms are probably those of a gentleman of the
Carew family ["Or, three lions passant sable."] and his wife; but
of special interest are those of the second pair of arms. The male
of the pair is clearly of the family of Dinham, of Hartland, Devon
& c. The arms of the lady in question ("Argent, three fusils
conjoined in fess gules, a bordure sable."] are those of Sir John
de Montagu, Lord Montagu (d. bef 5 Mar 1389/90), younger brother of
William, 2nd Earl of Salisbury, younger son of Sir William de
Montagu and Katherine de Grandison (see above) and husband of
Margaret de Monthermer [3].
The pairing of these arms clearly identify (without names) a
married couple, i.e. a male Dinham and a daughter of Sir John de
Montagu. This can only be Sir John de Dinham (d. 25 Dec 1428) and
his first wife, Eleanor (aka Ellen) de Montagu, the subject of
several prior SGM threads [4].
This is the first direct evidence of Sir John de Dinham’s wife
being identified as a daughter of Sir John de Montagu. In
combination with the circumstantial evidence previously provided in
the SGM posts referenced below, this identification can now be
classified as certain.
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
[1] C. E. Long, ed., Richard Symonds's Diary of the Marches of
the Royal (New York: Cambridge University Press, 1997), p. 85.
[2] Ibid. The complete text of page 85, found at the URL indicated
below, is as follows:
" 1644.]
Second window:
Quarterly FRANCE and ENGLAND, a label of three points argent.
Argent, three fusils conjoined in fess gules.
COURTENAY, with a label of three points azure.
Gules, fretty or.
Or, three lions passant in pale sable [CAREW].
Fourth window:
Or, a chevron between three escallops azure.
Argent, two bendlets wavy sable [STAPYLDON].
Ermine, three chevrons gules.
Azure, three bends argent.
Per chevron gules and sable, three keys erect, wards facing
the dexter side, or.
The picture of a monke:
Mag'r. Tho. de Hacteley me fecit.
Fifth window:
Quarterly, FRANCE and ENGLAND.
The same with a label of three points argent.
Gules, three lions passant or, a label of three points each
charged with three fleurs-de-lis or [EARLS and DUKES
OF LANCASTER].
Or, a chevron between three escallops azure.
Azure, three quatrefoils argent.
FERRERS.
Per fess gules and azure, three crescents argent.
Sixth window:
A similar coat to the last.
Argent, three fusils conjoined in fess gules, a bordure sable.
Or, three lions passant sable.
Gules, three fusils conjoined in fess ermine [DINHAM].
These are aloft in the north side of the body of the church:
A chevron between three keys erect, the wards pointing to the
dexter side or.
GRANDISON.
Argent, three chevrons sable.
MONTACUTE.
Argent, three bars gules.
Second window, beginning eastward:
MONTACUTE, with a bordure sable.
Argent, a fess sable, a bordure gules. "
URL
http://books.google.com/books?ie=ISO-88 ... Flr%3D%26q%
3Ddinham%2Bmontacute&sig=HekYtNXl7m5uwWlmSLw1En0XvJA
[3] These arms are as described in several sources, including
Ald S. S. Campion, J.P., "Northampton Town Hall: Its Story Told
By Itself" (Northampton: W. Mark & Co. Ltd. Printer &
Publishers, 1925 ) available at
http://northamptoncastle.homeip.net/nor ... l/book.htm
Also see "Holy Trinity Blackburn, The Ceiling" as described at
http://members.aol.com/htblackburn/htbceiling.htm
[4] See J. Ravilious, <John Dinham (d. 1428) and his 1st wife, Elen
[Montagu ?] >, SGM, 21 Feb, 2004. J. Ravilious, <CP Addition:
Eleanor (Elena) de Montagu, wife of Sir John de Dinham>, SGM, 27
March 2004. J. Ravilious, <The Lady and The Crown>, SGM, 3 Sept
2005. Also note that Leo van de Pas’ website,
http://www.genealogics.org, identifies Eleanor de Montagu as
indicated (Genealogics # I00387511).
* John P. Ravilious
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: CP Addition: Eleanor de Montagu, wife of Sir John de Din
In message of 18 Dec, Therav3@aol.com wrote:
I wonder if the windows were the wrong way round? Or perhaps that
Symonds was looking at them from the wrong side? For Symonds reports
all the apparent wives first and the husbands second? Or is he
reporting the husbands first and the wives second and the couples so
commemorated are completely different?
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
The diary of Richard Symonds is a well known source for studies
of the struggle between Cromwell and King Charles I in the 1640’s,
but also supplies some interesting non-military information. This
includes a detailed description of the windows of Exeter Cathedral,
including in some cases the family names of those whose arms are
depicted, shown as being recorded in 1644. These are most likely
the arms of individuals (in most cases, married couples) who were
benefactors of the cathedral.
Among the arms depicted, a number of married couples can be
identified. These include Sir Nicholas Carew (d. bef 20 Apr 1448)
and his wife Joan Courtenay ["COURTENAY, with a label of three
points azure." followed by "Or, three lions passant in pale sable
[CAREW]."], and Sir William de Montagu (d. 30 Jan 1343/4] and his
wife Katherine de Grandison ["GRANDISON." followed by
"MONTACUTE."] [1]. In particular, the arms described in the sixth
window (p. 85) are of interest, despite having only a partial
identification provided by the editor:
" Sixth window:
A similar coat to the last.
Argent, three fusils conjoined in fess gules, a bordure sable.
Or, three lions passant sable.
Gules, three fusils conjoined in fess ermine [DINHAM]. " [2]
The first pair of arms are probably those of a gentleman of the
Carew family ["Or, three lions passant sable."] and his wife; but
of special interest are those of the second pair of arms. The male
of the pair is clearly of the family of Dinham, of Hartland, Devon
& c. The arms of the lady in question ("Argent, three fusils
conjoined in fess gules, a bordure sable."] are those of Sir John
de Montagu, Lord Montagu (d. bef 5 Mar 1389/90), younger brother of
William, 2nd Earl of Salisbury, younger son of Sir William de
Montagu and Katherine de Grandison (see above) and husband of
Margaret de Monthermer [3].
The pairing of these arms clearly identify (without names) a
married couple, i.e. a male Dinham and a daughter of Sir John de
Montagu. This can only be Sir John de Dinham (d. 25 Dec 1428) and
his first wife, Eleanor (aka Ellen) de Montagu, the subject of
several prior SGM threads [4].
This is the first direct evidence of Sir John de Dinham’s wife
being identified as a daughter of Sir John de Montagu. In
combination with the circumstantial evidence previously provided in
the SGM posts referenced below, this identification can now be
classified as certain.
I wonder if the windows were the wrong way round? Or perhaps that
Symonds was looking at them from the wrong side? For Symonds reports
all the apparent wives first and the husbands second? Or is he
reporting the husbands first and the wives second and the couples so
commemorated are completely different?
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
-
John P. Ravilious
Re: CP Addition: Eleanor de Montagu, wife of Sir John de Din
Dear Tim,
It appears that Symonds chose a particular direction in his
'walk-about' tour of the cathedral, and recorded the arms from that
direction. I do not believe that the marriages evidenced by the arms
are other than those known or discernible as I indicated: there would
otherwise be a host of 'mirror-image' marriages hitherto unknown.
Whether these windows (or most of them) are extant or not, I do
not know: perhaps someone else of the list has some familiarity with
Exeter (and the windows in particular) ......?
Cheers,
John
Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
It appears that Symonds chose a particular direction in his
'walk-about' tour of the cathedral, and recorded the arms from that
direction. I do not believe that the marriages evidenced by the arms
are other than those known or discernible as I indicated: there would
otherwise be a host of 'mirror-image' marriages hitherto unknown.
Whether these windows (or most of them) are extant or not, I do
not know: perhaps someone else of the list has some familiarity with
Exeter (and the windows in particular) ......?
Cheers,
John
Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
In message of 18 Dec, Therav3@aol.com wrote:
SNIP
This is the first direct evidence of Sir John de Dinham’s wife
being identified as a daughter of Sir John de Montagu. In
combination with the circumstantial evidence previously provided in
the SGM posts referenced below, this identification can now be
classified as certain.
I wonder if the windows were the wrong way round? Or perhaps that
Symonds was looking at them from the wrong side? For Symonds reports
all the apparent wives first and the husbands second? Or is he
reporting the husbands first and the wives second and the couples so
commemorated are completely different?
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
-
John P. Ravilious
Re: CP Addition: Eleanor de Montagu, wife of Sir John de Din
Hello All,
Following is an ahnentafel for Muriel Dinham, daughter of Sir
John Dinham and Lady Eleanor (Montagu) Dinham, and wife of Sir Edward
Hastings of Elsing and Gressenhall. A more detailed AT will be posted
shortly - this is presented for simplicity's sake, to save time for
list members without a 'wholesale' interest in this ancestry.
Cheers,
John
1 Muriel Dinham.[1],[2]
died bef 1 Jul 1427.[3]
'Meryell doughter to John Denham'[HSP 16:154-156, Vis. of Yorkshire:
pedigree of Hastynges[2]]
' Muriel Dinham ', wife of Sir Edward Hastings [Genealogics I00135233
[4]]
identification as daughter of John, Lord Dinham and his first wife
Ellen
by John Ravilious ('Re: Dinham/Courtenay Correction', Society of
Medieval
Genealogy, http://www.rootsweb.com, 1 June 2001][5]
definitive proof of her parentage is given in the pre-nuptial
settlement, dated 20 Feb 1405-06:
" Pre-nuptial settlement dated 7 Hen IV [20 Feb 1405/06] at
'Notewill', Devon, between
Edward Lord of Hastyngges (1) and
John de Dynham, knight (2):
" Agreement between (1) and (2), that (1) shall marry Muriel (2)'s
daughter, and shall enfeoff certain persons at their choice (a lour
dieux ellection) with certain lands and tenements, to the value of
100 marks yearly, in 'which Muriel shall be jointured (iungne)
during her life, and that she shall be dowered in lands and
tenements to the yearly value of 300 marks along with that
jointure. For the marriage and jointure, (2) shall pay to (1) 400
marks (100 marks on the day of the marriage, 100 marks the
following Michaelmas, and 100 marks yearly at Michaelmas
until fully paid), provided that she is so jointured; if not, the
payments shall not be made.
Seal [fine; of (1) presumably]. [18th century?] "This
indenture is in French and contains articles of mariage
between Sr Edward Hastings and the Lady Muriell daughter
to Sr Johne Dynham."
- A2A, Cornwall Record Office: Arundell of Lanherne
and Trerice, AR/37/24 dated 20 Feb 1406[3],[6],[7]
previous publications indicated in error that she was daughter of John,
Lord Dinham (d. 1382) and his wife Muriel de Courtenay [see Faris, p.
130][8]
Correctly reported in Douglas Richardson, "Plantagenet Ancestry"[7]
aft 20 Feb 1405 Muriel married Sir Edward Hastings.[3],[6],[7],[9]
2 John Dinham, of Hartland, Devon & c. [died on 25 Dec 1428.]
3 Eleanor de Montagu [died ca 1394.]
4 John de Dinham, of Hartland, Devon & c.
5 Muriel de Courtenay.
6 John de Montagu, Lord Montagu [died bef 5 Mar 1389.]
7 Margaret de Monthermer, Baroness Monthermer.
8 Sir John de Dinham, of Hartland, Devon.
9 Margaret de Botreaux.
10 Sir Thomas de Courtenay, of Woodhuish and Dunterton, Devon.
11 Muriel de Moels.
12 William de Montagu, Earl of Salisbury [died 30 Jan 1343/4].
13 Katherine de Grandison.
14 Thomas de Monthermer, 2nd Lord Monthermer [k. Battle of Sluys, 24
Jun 1340].
15 Margaret de Braose.
16 Sir Josce de Dinham.
17 Margaret de Hydon.
18 William de Botreaux, of Boscastle, Cornwall.
19 NN.
20 Sir Hugh de Courtenay, Earl of Devon [died on 23 Dec 1340].
21 Agnes de Saint John.
22 Sir John de Moels.
23 Joan Lovel.
24 William de Montagu, Lord Montagu.
25 Elizabeth de Montfort.
26 Sir William de Grandison, Lord Grandison.
27 Sybil de Tregoz.
28 Sir Ralph de Monthermer, Lord Monthermer.
29 Joan 'of Acre' of England. [She m. 1st, Gilbert de Clare]
30 Piers de Braose, of Tetbury, co. Glocs. [died bef 7 Feb 1311.]
31 Agnes.
32 Sir Oliver de Dinham.
33 Isabel de Vere. [m. lstly Sir John de Courtenay]
34 Sir Richard de Hydon.
35 Isabel de Fissacre.
36 William de Botreaux.
37 Dionisia de Champernoun.
38 NN.
39 NN.
40 Sir Hugh de Courtenay, of Oakhampton, Devon. [died on 28 Feb 1291]
41 Eleanor le Despenser.
42 John de Saint John, of Basing, Hants. [died bef 30 Sep 1302.]
43 Alice Fitz Reynold.
44 Sir John de Moels, Lord Moels. [died 20 May 1310]
45 Maud de Grey.
46 Sir Richard Lovel, Lord Lovel. [died 31 Jan 1350/51]
47 Muriel de Soulis.
48 Simon de Montagu, Lord Montagu.
49 Hawise de St. Amand.
50 Piers de Montfort, of Beaudesert, co. Warwick.
51 Matilda de la Mare.
52 Pierre de Grandison.
53 Agnes de Neuchatel.
54 John de Tregoz, Lord Tregoz.
55 Mabel FitzWarin.
56 NN [de Monthermer]
57 NN
58 Edward I, King of England 1272-1307.
59 Eleanor of Castile.
60 Sir William de Braose, Lord Braose. [died bef 6 Jan 1290/1]
61 Mary de Ros.
62 NN.
63 NN.
Therav3@aol.com wrote:
Following is an ahnentafel for Muriel Dinham, daughter of Sir
John Dinham and Lady Eleanor (Montagu) Dinham, and wife of Sir Edward
Hastings of Elsing and Gressenhall. A more detailed AT will be posted
shortly - this is presented for simplicity's sake, to save time for
list members without a 'wholesale' interest in this ancestry.
Cheers,
John
1 Muriel Dinham.[1],[2]
died bef 1 Jul 1427.[3]
'Meryell doughter to John Denham'[HSP 16:154-156, Vis. of Yorkshire:
pedigree of Hastynges[2]]
' Muriel Dinham ', wife of Sir Edward Hastings [Genealogics I00135233
[4]]
identification as daughter of John, Lord Dinham and his first wife
Ellen
by John Ravilious ('Re: Dinham/Courtenay Correction', Society of
Medieval
Genealogy, http://www.rootsweb.com, 1 June 2001][5]
definitive proof of her parentage is given in the pre-nuptial
settlement, dated 20 Feb 1405-06:
" Pre-nuptial settlement dated 7 Hen IV [20 Feb 1405/06] at
'Notewill', Devon, between
Edward Lord of Hastyngges (1) and
John de Dynham, knight (2):
" Agreement between (1) and (2), that (1) shall marry Muriel (2)'s
daughter, and shall enfeoff certain persons at their choice (a lour
dieux ellection) with certain lands and tenements, to the value of
100 marks yearly, in 'which Muriel shall be jointured (iungne)
during her life, and that she shall be dowered in lands and
tenements to the yearly value of 300 marks along with that
jointure. For the marriage and jointure, (2) shall pay to (1) 400
marks (100 marks on the day of the marriage, 100 marks the
following Michaelmas, and 100 marks yearly at Michaelmas
until fully paid), provided that she is so jointured; if not, the
payments shall not be made.
Seal [fine; of (1) presumably]. [18th century?] "This
indenture is in French and contains articles of mariage
between Sr Edward Hastings and the Lady Muriell daughter
to Sr Johne Dynham."
- A2A, Cornwall Record Office: Arundell of Lanherne
and Trerice, AR/37/24 dated 20 Feb 1406[3],[6],[7]
previous publications indicated in error that she was daughter of John,
Lord Dinham (d. 1382) and his wife Muriel de Courtenay [see Faris, p.
130][8]
Correctly reported in Douglas Richardson, "Plantagenet Ancestry"[7]
aft 20 Feb 1405 Muriel married Sir Edward Hastings.[3],[6],[7],[9]
2 John Dinham, of Hartland, Devon & c. [died on 25 Dec 1428.]
3 Eleanor de Montagu [died ca 1394.]
4 John de Dinham, of Hartland, Devon & c.
5 Muriel de Courtenay.
6 John de Montagu, Lord Montagu [died bef 5 Mar 1389.]
7 Margaret de Monthermer, Baroness Monthermer.
8 Sir John de Dinham, of Hartland, Devon.
9 Margaret de Botreaux.
10 Sir Thomas de Courtenay, of Woodhuish and Dunterton, Devon.
11 Muriel de Moels.
12 William de Montagu, Earl of Salisbury [died 30 Jan 1343/4].
13 Katherine de Grandison.
14 Thomas de Monthermer, 2nd Lord Monthermer [k. Battle of Sluys, 24
Jun 1340].
15 Margaret de Braose.
16 Sir Josce de Dinham.
17 Margaret de Hydon.
18 William de Botreaux, of Boscastle, Cornwall.
19 NN.
20 Sir Hugh de Courtenay, Earl of Devon [died on 23 Dec 1340].
21 Agnes de Saint John.
22 Sir John de Moels.
23 Joan Lovel.
24 William de Montagu, Lord Montagu.
25 Elizabeth de Montfort.
26 Sir William de Grandison, Lord Grandison.
27 Sybil de Tregoz.
28 Sir Ralph de Monthermer, Lord Monthermer.
29 Joan 'of Acre' of England. [She m. 1st, Gilbert de Clare]
30 Piers de Braose, of Tetbury, co. Glocs. [died bef 7 Feb 1311.]
31 Agnes.
32 Sir Oliver de Dinham.
33 Isabel de Vere. [m. lstly Sir John de Courtenay]
34 Sir Richard de Hydon.
35 Isabel de Fissacre.
36 William de Botreaux.
37 Dionisia de Champernoun.
38 NN.
39 NN.
40 Sir Hugh de Courtenay, of Oakhampton, Devon. [died on 28 Feb 1291]
41 Eleanor le Despenser.
42 John de Saint John, of Basing, Hants. [died bef 30 Sep 1302.]
43 Alice Fitz Reynold.
44 Sir John de Moels, Lord Moels. [died 20 May 1310]
45 Maud de Grey.
46 Sir Richard Lovel, Lord Lovel. [died 31 Jan 1350/51]
47 Muriel de Soulis.
48 Simon de Montagu, Lord Montagu.
49 Hawise de St. Amand.
50 Piers de Montfort, of Beaudesert, co. Warwick.
51 Matilda de la Mare.
52 Pierre de Grandison.
53 Agnes de Neuchatel.
54 John de Tregoz, Lord Tregoz.
55 Mabel FitzWarin.
56 NN [de Monthermer]
57 NN
58 Edward I, King of England 1272-1307.
59 Eleanor of Castile.
60 Sir William de Braose, Lord Braose. [died bef 6 Jan 1290/1]
61 Mary de Ros.
62 NN.
63 NN.
Therav3@aol.com wrote:
Saturday, 17 December, 2005
Hello All,
The diary of Richard Symonds is a well known source for studies
of the struggle between Cromwell and King Charles I in the 1640's,
but also supplies some interesting non-military information. This
includes a detailed description of the windows of Exeter Cathedral,
including in some cases the family names of those whose arms are
depicted, shown as being recorded in 1644. These are most likely
the arms of individuals (in most cases, married couples) who were
benefactors of the cathedral.
SNIP
-
Gjest
Re: CP Addition: Eleanor de Montagu, wife of Sir John de Din
I have #31 as Agnes de Clifford, the daughter of Roger de Clifford and
Mahaut de Courtenay, Countess de Loretto. Sources: "Whose Son was
Peter de Braose?" by F.N. Craig, NEHGR 150 (1996):315-324; "Magna
Carta Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families" by Douglas
Richardson (GPC, Baltimore, 2005). Is this not correct?
Mahaut de Courtenay, Countess de Loretto. Sources: "Whose Son was
Peter de Braose?" by F.N. Craig, NEHGR 150 (1996):315-324; "Magna
Carta Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families" by Douglas
Richardson (GPC, Baltimore, 2005). Is this not correct?
-
John P. Ravilious
Re: CP Addition: Eleanor de Montagu, wife of Sir John de Din
Dear Martin,
I'm not familiar with the Craig article. Doug Richardson (Magna
Carta, p. 814) identifies her ('Agnes') as Agnes de Clifford, widow of
Henry Hussey/Husee, but without parentage.
There may be information in the SGM archives on the
identification you note - perhaps someone else of the list more
knowledgeable on the issue could chime in?
Cheers,
John
mhollick@mac.com wrote:
I'm not familiar with the Craig article. Doug Richardson (Magna
Carta, p. 814) identifies her ('Agnes') as Agnes de Clifford, widow of
Henry Hussey/Husee, but without parentage.
There may be information in the SGM archives on the
identification you note - perhaps someone else of the list more
knowledgeable on the issue could chime in?
Cheers,
John
mhollick@mac.com wrote:
I have #31 as Agnes de Clifford, the daughter of Roger de Clifford and
Mahaut de Courtenay, Countess de Loretto. Sources: "Whose Son was
Peter de Braose?" by F.N. Craig, NEHGR 150 (1996):315-324; "Magna
Carta Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families" by Douglas
Richardson (GPC, Baltimore, 2005). Is this not correct?
-
John P. Ravilious
Re: CP Addition: Eleanor de Montagu, wife of Sir John de Din
[NOTE: original submission in etherea incognita.....]
Sunday, 18 December, 2005
Hello All,
This is the detailed AT for Muriel Dinham, promised in my last
post in this thread. I hope this is found to be useful.
Cheers,
John
___________________________________
Muriel (Dinham) Hastings: Ahnentafel (part I - A of IV)
1 Muriel Dinham.[1],[2]
died bef 1 Jul 1427.[3]
'Meryell doughter to John Denham'[HSP 16:154-156, Vis. of Yorkshire:
pedigree of Hastynges[2]]
' Muriel Dinham ', wife of Sir Edward Hastings [Genealogics I00135233
[4]]
identification as daughter of John, Lord Dinham and his first wife
Ellen
by John Ravilious ('Re: Dinham/Courtenay Correction', Society of
Medieval
Genealogy, http://www.rootsweb.com, 1 June 2001][5]
definitive proof of her parentage is given in the pre-nuptial
settlement, dated 20 Feb 1405-06:
" Pre-nuptial settlement dated 7 Hen IV [20 Feb 1405/06] at
'Notewill', Devon, between
Edward Lord of Hastyngges (1) and
John de Dynham, knight (2):
" Agreement between (1) and (2), that (1) shall marry Muriel (2)'s
daughter, and shall enfeoff certain persons at their choice (a lour
dieux ellection) with certain lands and tenements, to the value of
100 marks yearly, in 'which Muriel shall be jointured (iungne)
during her life, and that she shall be dowered in lands and
tenements to the yearly value of 300 marks along with that
jointure. For the marriage and jointure, (2) shall pay to (1) 400
marks (100 marks on the day of the marriage, 100 marks the
following Michaelmas, and 100 marks yearly at Michaelmas
until fully paid), provided that she is so jointured; if not, the
payments shall not be made.
Seal [fine; of (1) presumably]. [18th century?] "This
indenture is in French and contains articles of mariage
between Sr Edward Hastings and the Lady Muriell daughter
to Sr Johne Dynham."
- A2A, Cornwall Record Office: Arundell of Lanherne
and Trerice, AR/37/24 dated 20 Feb 1406[3],[6],[7]
previous publications indicated in error that she was daughter of John,
Lord Dinham (d. 1382) and his wife Muriel de Courtenay [see Faris, p.
130][8]
Correctly reported in Douglas Richardson, "Plantagenet Ancestry"[7]
aft 20 Feb 1405 Muriel married Sir Edward Hastings.[3],[6],[7],[9]
2 John Dinham.[2]
Born aft 3 Jul 1359 in Devon.[10],[11],[9]
died on 25 Dec 1428, he was 69.[9]
Buried in Kingskerswell church, Devon.[12]
knight, of Hartland, Devon, Buckland Denham, Somerset and Cardinham,
Cornwall
5th Lord Dinham
held heir to uncle Hugh Courtenay, per Inq.p.m., 12 Aug 1369[9]
a minor on 3 July 1380:
' Presentation of Thomas de Eyton, parson of the church of Great
Shelford, in the diocese of Ely, to the church of Southpole, in
the diocese of Exeter, in the king's gift by reason of the
minority of John de Dynham, son and heir of Muriel, daughter
and one of the heirs of Thomas de Courteneye, tenant in chief,
on an exchange of benefices with William de Donnebrugge. '
[Calendar of Patent Rolls, Richard II, Vol. 1 (1377-81), p.
524.[11],[10]]
' Dominum Johannem Dynham, juniorem, Militem, et Elenam ejus uxorem ',
named in a mandate of Bishop Thomas Brantyngham of Exeter dated Feb
1379/80 [Brantyngham I:418[14]]
licence dated 14 July 1382 for his wife, Lady Eleanor to celebrate the
divine
service in a chapel or oratory at Kitton [Brantyngham I:472, dated
1382[14]]
'Dominus Johannes de Dynham, Miles, et Elianora uxor sua ', had
licence
from Bishop Brantyngham to celebrate divine services in a chapel in
their
manor of Kingskerswell [ 'infra Manerium suum de Carswelle Regis '],
dated
3 Jan 1383/4 [Brantyngham I:504[14]]
entered into agreement with Edward Hastings for marriage to
his daughter Muriel Dinham: Pre-nuptial settlement dated 7 Hen IV
[20 Feb 1405/06; A2A, Cornwall Record Office: Arundell of Lanherne
and Trerice, AR/37/24 dated 20 Feb 1406[3],
buried Kingskerswell, Devon (together with his first and second
wives)[12]
he m. 1stly Eleanor (or Elena[9] ) de Montagu[16],[4]
2nd Maud Mautravers[9],
3rdly Philippa Lovel[9]
cf. CP IV:374-7[9]
Richardson pp. 274-5[7]
bef 3 Feb 1379 when John was 19, he married Eleanor de Montagu[9].[9]
3 Eleanor de Montagu.[9]
died ca 1394.[12],[17],[16]
Buried in Kingskerswell church, Devon.[12]
1st wife[9]
' my daughter Alianore ', will of her father Sir John de Montagu, dated
20 March, 1388 [Testa. Vetusta, p. 124[17]]
'Eleanor ', daughter of John de Montagu [CP IX:88, note (f)[9]]
' Ellen|Alianore de Montagu ', wife of Sir John de
Dinham [Genealogics # I00387511[4]]
CP IV:375-6 (and notes (g) on p. 375, (a) on p. 376), re: her husband
John :
" He m., 1stly, before 3 Feb. 1379/80 [g], Ellen. She was
living 22 Sep. 1387 [a].
"(g) "Johannes Dynham junior miles et Elena uxor ejus" occur
on and between these dates. (Exeter Reg., Brantyngham,
pp. 418, 472, 481, 623, 646).
"(a) See note "g" on preceding page. "[9]
cf. Brantyngham I:418, dated Feb 1379/80[14]]
Brantyngham I:481, dated 1382[14]]
she evidently delivered a child in 1391/2:
the Account Roll of John Whitebal , beadle of Hartland, Devon dated
13-14 Ric II includes expenses for 'a horse for an 'obstetrix' for
the
lady' [A2A, Cornwall Record Office: Arundell of Lanherne and Trerice
[AR/2/1 - AR/2/731], AR/2/539/4[3] ]
she d. 1393/4 as noted by Dr. Hannes Kleineke[12]:
the Account Roll of Richard Sampson, beadle of Hartland, Devon dated
17-18 Ric II includes expenses for ' purchase of victuals for the
lady's burial ', and ' costs of various transports for the lady's
burial ' [A2A, Cornwall Record Office: Arundell of Lanherne and
Trerice
[AR/2/1 - AR/2/731], AR/2/539/5[3] ]
____________________________________
the parentage of Ellen/Elena, wife of John de Dinham, was identified by
John P. Ravilious [18]
Additional evidence of her parentage was noted on the tomb of Lady
Eleanor
Dinham in Kingskerswell, Devon [J. Ravilious, The Lady and The Crown,
3 Sept 2005[19]]
cf. CP IV:375-6, sub Dinham[9]
CP IX:88, note (f), sub Montagu[9]
4 John de Dinham.
died in murdered (robbery) on 7 Jan 1382, he was 62.[20],[9]
Born on 3 May 1319.[9],[3]
knight, of Hartland, Devon, Buckland Denham, Somerset and Cardinham,
Cornwall
4th Lord Dinham
born 3 May 1319; had recognition of his right to seisin by his mother
when
of age, 3 May 1340 [ A2A, Cornwall Record Office: Arundell of Lanherne
and
Trerice [AR/17 - AR/50] , AR/37/11[3] ]
had livery of his father's lands followng the King taking his homage,
12 May 1340
he was possibly knighted at that time, but definitely before 29 March
1343.
He had livery of the manor of Bodardel, Cornwall under Agreement for
adjustment of dower with his mother Lady Margaret, 29 Mar 1343
[Saturday
after Annunciation, 23 Edw III ] - A2A, Cornwall Record
Office: Arundell of Lanherne and Trerice [AR/1/1 - AR/1/527] ,
AR/1/397[3]
' Sir John de Dynham ', witness to quitclaim of his cousin Oliver de
Dynham
of lands of Whyteleigh in Hartland manor, 7 Feb. 1346 [ A2A, Cornwall
Record Office: Arundell of Lanherne and Trerice [AR/1/528 -
AR/1/1121],
AR/1/604[3]]
record of a petition by his mother to the Pope, Jul 1346:
' Margaret, late the wife of John de Dynham, knight. For plenary
remission at the hour of death to herself and her legitimate sons,
John de Dynham, knight, and Oliver de Dynham. Granted.
[ Avignon, Kal. Aug. ] ' [Papal Petition I:114[21], cites f. 117]
' John Dy[n]ham ', witness to grant by his (future) father-in-law '
Thomas
de Cortenay the Elder, knight ' to Roger Torel, dated Carswill Regis
[Kingskerswell], 7 June 1355 [ Harvard English Deeds Coll. , Deed
174 - HOLLIS number: - AOA6353[23] ]
had livery of the manors of Buckland Denham and Harpford which his
mother
had held in dower, 22 Apr 1362[9]
he m. Muriel de Courtenay
cf. CP IV:373-4[9]
_______________________________
previously believed to have married 2ndly Alice[24], but this is
evidently in error.
bef 27 Mar 1357 when John was 37, he married Muriel de
Courtenay.[3],[25]
5 Muriel de Courtenay.
died bef 12 Aug 1369, she was 26.[20]
Born bef 27 Mar 1343.[4]
Buried in Hartland Abbey, Devon.[9],[26]
coheiress (in her issue) of her brother Hugh de Courtenay[9]
' The date of the marriage of Sir John de Dinham (d. 7 Jan 1382/83)
and
Muriel de Courtenay is unknown, and was previously defined only by the
approximation of the birth of their son John, evidently born before 12
August 1359 as he was 'aged 10 and more' at the time of the IPM of his
uncle Hugh de Courtenay (12 Aug 1369) [1 - citation from CP provided
by
Chris Phillips].
' The record of a gift of certain manors in Devon and Cornwall has
been
found on the PRO site, which evidences that John de Dinham and Muriel
de
Courtenay were married no later than 27 March 1357.'[25]
Gift, dated Monday after Annunciation, 31 Edw III (27 March 1357),
at Ilstyngton; by
" William de Wynkaulton, chaplain, Nicholas de la Pomeray, and
Thomas de Stafforde = (1)-(3) [to]
Sir John de Dyneham, knight, and Muriel his wife = (4)-(5)
(1)-(3) to (4)-(5), their manors of Ilstyngton, Matforde, Southdon,
Bodardel and Gorlyn, with all appurtenances; for (4)-(5) and the heirs
and assigns of (4) to hold of the chief lords of the fee, by services
due.
Warranty.
[Witnesses:] Richard de Merton, Theobald de Greyneuile, Thomas de
Raleghe,
John de Ferariis, knights, John Dabernoun, Thomas de Crauwelthorne,
John
Fraunceys, Matthew Beaumond, William Holebern. " - A2A, Cornwall
Record
Office: Arundell of Lanherne and Trerice [AR/1/528 - AR/1/1121],
AR/1/890[3]
cf. CP IV:374[9]
6 John de Montagu.
died bef 5 Mar 1389.[9],[7]
Buried in Salisbury cathedral.[9]
Occupation: Lord Montagu.
knt., of Wark upon Tweed, Northumberland
younger son
fought at Crecy (26 Aug 1346) and the siege of Calais, 1347
fought at Poitiers, 19 Sept 1356[1] [probably in the right wing, under
command of his brother the Earl of Salisbury; Sumption, p. 235[28]]
summoned to Parliament from 15 Dec 1357 to 6 Dec 1389 by writs directed
'Johanni de Monte Acuto', whereby held to have become Lord Montagu
[CP IX:87[9]]
grant from John de Grandisson to his nephew to Sir John de Montagu,
dated 1365/6:
E 329/207
John de Grandissono, Bishop of Exeter, brother and heir of Peter de
Gradissono (sic) to John de Monte Acuto his nephew: Grant of land in
Ewyas Harold, Monnington, Stradel, Folesyate, Upton Skydemor, Norton,
Fyfield (Fifhide), Teffont (Teffonte Ewias), Rockley, Poyntington, and
Eschelleworth: Heref. 40 Edw.III [27]
will dated 20 March 1388/9 [17]
cf. CP IX:86-88[9]
bef 31 Dec 1343 John married Margaret de Monthermer.[29]
7 Margaret de Monthermer.
Born on 14 Oct 1329 in Stokenham, Devon.[1],[7]
died on 24 Mar 1394, she was 64.[9],[7]
Buried in Warblington, co. Hants. (later reinterred at Selwood
priory, aft 15 Feb 1403/4).[30]
Occupation: Baroness Monthermer.
heiress of her father[29]
her marriage and custody of her lands were granted to William
de Montagu, Earl of Salisbury, 2 July 1340 (he married her
to his younger son John de Montagu - CP IX:144[9])
she inherited the manor of Warblington, co. Hants. (dower of her
mother)
grant by ' Margaret Mountagu, lady of Stokeynhame, widow' dated at
Warblington, 3 April, 13 Richard II (1390) [27]
cf. VCH (Hampshire) III:134-136[31]
' Margaret de Monte Acuto, lady of Stokenham, now deceased ', granted a
messuage and two ferlings of land in Colrigge, part of Stokenham, to
John Irlond and his wife Margery - Pardon re: entry without licence
upon
same to Margery, late wife of John Irlond, dated at Westminster, 26
Sept 1396 [CPR Ric II VI:34[10]]
cf. CP IX:86-88 (sub Montagu)[9]
[ to be continued - see Part I -B ]
Sunday, 18 December, 2005
Hello All,
This is the detailed AT for Muriel Dinham, promised in my last
post in this thread. I hope this is found to be useful.
Cheers,
John
___________________________________
Muriel (Dinham) Hastings: Ahnentafel (part I - A of IV)
1 Muriel Dinham.[1],[2]
died bef 1 Jul 1427.[3]
'Meryell doughter to John Denham'[HSP 16:154-156, Vis. of Yorkshire:
pedigree of Hastynges[2]]
' Muriel Dinham ', wife of Sir Edward Hastings [Genealogics I00135233
[4]]
identification as daughter of John, Lord Dinham and his first wife
Ellen
by John Ravilious ('Re: Dinham/Courtenay Correction', Society of
Medieval
Genealogy, http://www.rootsweb.com, 1 June 2001][5]
definitive proof of her parentage is given in the pre-nuptial
settlement, dated 20 Feb 1405-06:
" Pre-nuptial settlement dated 7 Hen IV [20 Feb 1405/06] at
'Notewill', Devon, between
Edward Lord of Hastyngges (1) and
John de Dynham, knight (2):
" Agreement between (1) and (2), that (1) shall marry Muriel (2)'s
daughter, and shall enfeoff certain persons at their choice (a lour
dieux ellection) with certain lands and tenements, to the value of
100 marks yearly, in 'which Muriel shall be jointured (iungne)
during her life, and that she shall be dowered in lands and
tenements to the yearly value of 300 marks along with that
jointure. For the marriage and jointure, (2) shall pay to (1) 400
marks (100 marks on the day of the marriage, 100 marks the
following Michaelmas, and 100 marks yearly at Michaelmas
until fully paid), provided that she is so jointured; if not, the
payments shall not be made.
Seal [fine; of (1) presumably]. [18th century?] "This
indenture is in French and contains articles of mariage
between Sr Edward Hastings and the Lady Muriell daughter
to Sr Johne Dynham."
- A2A, Cornwall Record Office: Arundell of Lanherne
and Trerice, AR/37/24 dated 20 Feb 1406[3],[6],[7]
previous publications indicated in error that she was daughter of John,
Lord Dinham (d. 1382) and his wife Muriel de Courtenay [see Faris, p.
130][8]
Correctly reported in Douglas Richardson, "Plantagenet Ancestry"[7]
aft 20 Feb 1405 Muriel married Sir Edward Hastings.[3],[6],[7],[9]
2 John Dinham.[2]
Born aft 3 Jul 1359 in Devon.[10],[11],[9]
died on 25 Dec 1428, he was 69.[9]
Buried in Kingskerswell church, Devon.[12]
knight, of Hartland, Devon, Buckland Denham, Somerset and Cardinham,
Cornwall
5th Lord Dinham
held heir to uncle Hugh Courtenay, per Inq.p.m., 12 Aug 1369[9]
a minor on 3 July 1380:
' Presentation of Thomas de Eyton, parson of the church of Great
Shelford, in the diocese of Ely, to the church of Southpole, in
the diocese of Exeter, in the king's gift by reason of the
minority of John de Dynham, son and heir of Muriel, daughter
and one of the heirs of Thomas de Courteneye, tenant in chief,
on an exchange of benefices with William de Donnebrugge. '
[Calendar of Patent Rolls, Richard II, Vol. 1 (1377-81), p.
524.[11],[10]]
' Dominum Johannem Dynham, juniorem, Militem, et Elenam ejus uxorem ',
named in a mandate of Bishop Thomas Brantyngham of Exeter dated Feb
1379/80 [Brantyngham I:418[14]]
licence dated 14 July 1382 for his wife, Lady Eleanor to celebrate the
divine
service in a chapel or oratory at Kitton [Brantyngham I:472, dated
1382[14]]
'Dominus Johannes de Dynham, Miles, et Elianora uxor sua ', had
licence
from Bishop Brantyngham to celebrate divine services in a chapel in
their
manor of Kingskerswell [ 'infra Manerium suum de Carswelle Regis '],
dated
3 Jan 1383/4 [Brantyngham I:504[14]]
entered into agreement with Edward Hastings for marriage to
his daughter Muriel Dinham: Pre-nuptial settlement dated 7 Hen IV
[20 Feb 1405/06; A2A, Cornwall Record Office: Arundell of Lanherne
and Trerice, AR/37/24 dated 20 Feb 1406[3],
buried Kingskerswell, Devon (together with his first and second
wives)[12]
he m. 1stly Eleanor (or Elena[9] ) de Montagu[16],[4]
2nd Maud Mautravers[9],
3rdly Philippa Lovel[9]
cf. CP IV:374-7[9]
Richardson pp. 274-5[7]
bef 3 Feb 1379 when John was 19, he married Eleanor de Montagu[9].[9]
3 Eleanor de Montagu.[9]
died ca 1394.[12],[17],[16]
Buried in Kingskerswell church, Devon.[12]
1st wife[9]
' my daughter Alianore ', will of her father Sir John de Montagu, dated
20 March, 1388 [Testa. Vetusta, p. 124[17]]
'Eleanor ', daughter of John de Montagu [CP IX:88, note (f)[9]]
' Ellen|Alianore de Montagu ', wife of Sir John de
Dinham [Genealogics # I00387511[4]]
CP IV:375-6 (and notes (g) on p. 375, (a) on p. 376), re: her husband
John :
" He m., 1stly, before 3 Feb. 1379/80 [g], Ellen. She was
living 22 Sep. 1387 [a].
"(g) "Johannes Dynham junior miles et Elena uxor ejus" occur
on and between these dates. (Exeter Reg., Brantyngham,
pp. 418, 472, 481, 623, 646).
"(a) See note "g" on preceding page. "[9]
cf. Brantyngham I:418, dated Feb 1379/80[14]]
Brantyngham I:481, dated 1382[14]]
she evidently delivered a child in 1391/2:
the Account Roll of John Whitebal , beadle of Hartland, Devon dated
13-14 Ric II includes expenses for 'a horse for an 'obstetrix' for
the
lady' [A2A, Cornwall Record Office: Arundell of Lanherne and Trerice
[AR/2/1 - AR/2/731], AR/2/539/4[3] ]
she d. 1393/4 as noted by Dr. Hannes Kleineke[12]:
the Account Roll of Richard Sampson, beadle of Hartland, Devon dated
17-18 Ric II includes expenses for ' purchase of victuals for the
lady's burial ', and ' costs of various transports for the lady's
burial ' [A2A, Cornwall Record Office: Arundell of Lanherne and
Trerice
[AR/2/1 - AR/2/731], AR/2/539/5[3] ]
____________________________________
the parentage of Ellen/Elena, wife of John de Dinham, was identified by
John P. Ravilious [18]
Additional evidence of her parentage was noted on the tomb of Lady
Eleanor
Dinham in Kingskerswell, Devon [J. Ravilious, The Lady and The Crown,
3 Sept 2005[19]]
cf. CP IV:375-6, sub Dinham[9]
CP IX:88, note (f), sub Montagu[9]
4 John de Dinham.
died in murdered (robbery) on 7 Jan 1382, he was 62.[20],[9]
Born on 3 May 1319.[9],[3]
knight, of Hartland, Devon, Buckland Denham, Somerset and Cardinham,
Cornwall
4th Lord Dinham
born 3 May 1319; had recognition of his right to seisin by his mother
when
of age, 3 May 1340 [ A2A, Cornwall Record Office: Arundell of Lanherne
and
Trerice [AR/17 - AR/50] , AR/37/11[3] ]
had livery of his father's lands followng the King taking his homage,
12 May 1340
he was possibly knighted at that time, but definitely before 29 March
1343.
He had livery of the manor of Bodardel, Cornwall under Agreement for
adjustment of dower with his mother Lady Margaret, 29 Mar 1343
[Saturday
after Annunciation, 23 Edw III ] - A2A, Cornwall Record
Office: Arundell of Lanherne and Trerice [AR/1/1 - AR/1/527] ,
AR/1/397[3]
' Sir John de Dynham ', witness to quitclaim of his cousin Oliver de
Dynham
of lands of Whyteleigh in Hartland manor, 7 Feb. 1346 [ A2A, Cornwall
Record Office: Arundell of Lanherne and Trerice [AR/1/528 -
AR/1/1121],
AR/1/604[3]]
record of a petition by his mother to the Pope, Jul 1346:
' Margaret, late the wife of John de Dynham, knight. For plenary
remission at the hour of death to herself and her legitimate sons,
John de Dynham, knight, and Oliver de Dynham. Granted.
[ Avignon, Kal. Aug. ] ' [Papal Petition I:114[21], cites f. 117]
' John Dy[n]ham ', witness to grant by his (future) father-in-law '
Thomas
de Cortenay the Elder, knight ' to Roger Torel, dated Carswill Regis
[Kingskerswell], 7 June 1355 [ Harvard English Deeds Coll. , Deed
174 - HOLLIS number: - AOA6353[23] ]
had livery of the manors of Buckland Denham and Harpford which his
mother
had held in dower, 22 Apr 1362[9]
he m. Muriel de Courtenay
cf. CP IV:373-4[9]
_______________________________
previously believed to have married 2ndly Alice[24], but this is
evidently in error.
bef 27 Mar 1357 when John was 37, he married Muriel de
Courtenay.[3],[25]
5 Muriel de Courtenay.
died bef 12 Aug 1369, she was 26.[20]
Born bef 27 Mar 1343.[4]
Buried in Hartland Abbey, Devon.[9],[26]
coheiress (in her issue) of her brother Hugh de Courtenay[9]
' The date of the marriage of Sir John de Dinham (d. 7 Jan 1382/83)
and
Muriel de Courtenay is unknown, and was previously defined only by the
approximation of the birth of their son John, evidently born before 12
August 1359 as he was 'aged 10 and more' at the time of the IPM of his
uncle Hugh de Courtenay (12 Aug 1369) [1 - citation from CP provided
by
Chris Phillips].
' The record of a gift of certain manors in Devon and Cornwall has
been
found on the PRO site, which evidences that John de Dinham and Muriel
de
Courtenay were married no later than 27 March 1357.'[25]
Gift, dated Monday after Annunciation, 31 Edw III (27 March 1357),
at Ilstyngton; by
" William de Wynkaulton, chaplain, Nicholas de la Pomeray, and
Thomas de Stafforde = (1)-(3) [to]
Sir John de Dyneham, knight, and Muriel his wife = (4)-(5)
(1)-(3) to (4)-(5), their manors of Ilstyngton, Matforde, Southdon,
Bodardel and Gorlyn, with all appurtenances; for (4)-(5) and the heirs
and assigns of (4) to hold of the chief lords of the fee, by services
due.
Warranty.
[Witnesses:] Richard de Merton, Theobald de Greyneuile, Thomas de
Raleghe,
John de Ferariis, knights, John Dabernoun, Thomas de Crauwelthorne,
John
Fraunceys, Matthew Beaumond, William Holebern. " - A2A, Cornwall
Record
Office: Arundell of Lanherne and Trerice [AR/1/528 - AR/1/1121],
AR/1/890[3]
cf. CP IV:374[9]
6 John de Montagu.
died bef 5 Mar 1389.[9],[7]
Buried in Salisbury cathedral.[9]
Occupation: Lord Montagu.
knt., of Wark upon Tweed, Northumberland
younger son
fought at Crecy (26 Aug 1346) and the siege of Calais, 1347
fought at Poitiers, 19 Sept 1356[1] [probably in the right wing, under
command of his brother the Earl of Salisbury; Sumption, p. 235[28]]
summoned to Parliament from 15 Dec 1357 to 6 Dec 1389 by writs directed
'Johanni de Monte Acuto', whereby held to have become Lord Montagu
[CP IX:87[9]]
grant from John de Grandisson to his nephew to Sir John de Montagu,
dated 1365/6:
E 329/207
John de Grandissono, Bishop of Exeter, brother and heir of Peter de
Gradissono (sic) to John de Monte Acuto his nephew: Grant of land in
Ewyas Harold, Monnington, Stradel, Folesyate, Upton Skydemor, Norton,
Fyfield (Fifhide), Teffont (Teffonte Ewias), Rockley, Poyntington, and
Eschelleworth: Heref. 40 Edw.III [27]
will dated 20 March 1388/9 [17]
cf. CP IX:86-88[9]
bef 31 Dec 1343 John married Margaret de Monthermer.[29]
7 Margaret de Monthermer.
Born on 14 Oct 1329 in Stokenham, Devon.[1],[7]
died on 24 Mar 1394, she was 64.[9],[7]
Buried in Warblington, co. Hants. (later reinterred at Selwood
priory, aft 15 Feb 1403/4).[30]
Occupation: Baroness Monthermer.
heiress of her father[29]
her marriage and custody of her lands were granted to William
de Montagu, Earl of Salisbury, 2 July 1340 (he married her
to his younger son John de Montagu - CP IX:144[9])
she inherited the manor of Warblington, co. Hants. (dower of her
mother)
grant by ' Margaret Mountagu, lady of Stokeynhame, widow' dated at
Warblington, 3 April, 13 Richard II (1390) [27]
cf. VCH (Hampshire) III:134-136[31]
' Margaret de Monte Acuto, lady of Stokenham, now deceased ', granted a
messuage and two ferlings of land in Colrigge, part of Stokenham, to
John Irlond and his wife Margery - Pardon re: entry without licence
upon
same to Margery, late wife of John Irlond, dated at Westminster, 26
Sept 1396 [CPR Ric II VI:34[10]]
cf. CP IX:86-88 (sub Montagu)[9]
[ to be continued - see Part I -B ]
-
John P. Ravilious
Re: CP Addition: Eleanor de Montagu, wife of Sir John de Din
Monday, 19 December, 2005
Hello All,
This is Part I -B of the detailed AT for Muriel Dinham (the
original ' Part I ' was too large, changing Google to Gaggle....).
Cheers,
John
___________________________________
Muriel (Dinham) Hastings: Ahnentafel (part I - B of IV)
8 Sir John de Dinham.
Born on 14 Sep 1295.[9]
died bef 15 Apr 1332, he was 36.[9]
knt., of Hartland, Devon, Buckland Denham, Somerset and Cardinham,
Cornwall[9]
3rd Lord Dinham
succeeded his father as a minor, and ward of the King:
Assignment [ " to Thomas, bishop of Exeter, Hugh, abbot of Hayles,
William
de Bereford and Walter de Aylesbury, executors of the will of Edmund,
earl
of Cornwall, the king's kinsman, in part payment of the king's
indebtedness
to the earl of 9,480 1/2 marks 10 1/4d.," ] of custody of his lands
during
the minority of his heir, made at Peebles [Scot.] 2 Aug. 1301:
' from 8 September next, and during the minority of the heirs, of two
parts
of the lands late of Joyce de Dynham, tenant in chief, together with
the
marriage of the heirs, worth 2,000 marks; saving to the king knights'
fees,
&c., as above.
By K[ing]., on the information of W., bishop of Coventry and
Lichfield.
Mandate in pursuance to Walter de Gloucestre, escheator beyond Trent.
Mandate to Margery, late the wife of the said Joyce, to deliver the
body
of the heir of the said Joyce, which is said to be in her custody, to
the
said executors to be married. ' [CPR 1292-1301, p. 603[32]]
assessment of a feudal aid, for his manor of Buckland Denham in the
hundred
of Kynemerdeston, Somerset in 1303:
' Johannes de Denham, heres Jocelini de Denham, tenet terciam partem
un. f.
in Boclaund et est in custodia domini regis ' [Feudal Aids IV:310[22]]
came of age, September 1316:
'A few years after the death of Sir Oliver de Dynham, his son, Josce's
son and heir, John de Dynham, came of age. This took place in 1316.
Shortly before John obtained livery of his father's lands, Hugh de
Courtenay (grandson of Isabel de Vere) wrote a letter to William de
Airmyn dated c. September 1316, in which he requested assistance for
his kinsman, John de Dynham, now of age, in obtaining seisin of his
lands [Reference: List of Ancient Correspondence, Lists and Indexes,
No. XV, reprinted 1968, pg. 552; cf. Index to Ancient Correspondence
of the Chancery and the Exchequer, 1 (Lists and Indexes, Supplementary
Series, No. XV) (reprinted 1969), pp. 308, 351]. The King
subsequently took John de Dynham's homage, and he had livery of his
father's lands, 18 October 1316.'[33]
~ NOTE: this evidence supports his relationship to the Courtenay family
as
shown (based on common descent from his paternal grandmother, Isabel
de Vere)
' Jn. de Dynham ' , entered into agreement with Sir Otto de Bodrugan as
to the advowson of the church of La Roche, recognized as below to John
de Dinham:
Agreement dated at Lostwythiel, 6 November 1318 :
1. Jn. de Dynham
2. Sir Otto de Bodrugan, Kt.
(Rec. on recent vacancy of church of La Roche in diocese of Exeter by
death
of Clement de la roche there was a controversy on the right of
patronage
between him and Sir Otto de Bodrugan, Knight. Latter brought writ of
quare
impedit against him in the King's court)
(2) recognised (1)'s right to advowson in court.
(1) had to pay costs awarded.
Alternate sealing clause. ' - A2A, Cornwall Record Office: Edgcumbe
of
Cotehele and Mount Edgcumbe [ME/1540 - ME/3660], ME/2905[3]
' Johan de Dynham ', summoned for military service 20 February 1324/5 -
to
appear at Portsmouth 'mounted and armed' - in France, by letters under
privy seal of King Edward II [ Foedera, pp. 591-2[34]]
IPM of John de Dynham, held at Exeter, 20 June 1332[26]
cf. CP IV:372-3[9]
Chope pp. 432-3[26]
ca 1310 when Sir John was 14, he married Margaret de Botreaux.[9]
9 Margaret de Botreaux. Margaret died bef 16 Jan 1361.[9]
Genealogics #I00429089[4]
' Margaret Botreaux ' as identified by Dr. Hannes Kleineke.[35]
record of a petition to the Pope, Jul 1346:
' Margaret, late the wife of John de Dynham, knight. For plenary
remission at the hour of death to herself and her legitimate sons,
John de Dynham, knight, and Oliver de Dynham. Granted.
[ Avignon, Kal. Aug. ] ' [Papal Petitions I:114[21], cites f. 117]
assessment of a feudal aid, for his manor of Buckland Denham in the
hundred
of Kynemersdon, Somerset in 1346 (which she held in dower):
' De Margareta, que fuit uxor Johannis de Denham, pro iij. parte un. f.
in
Bouclond quam Johannes de Denham et heres Johanne de Denham quondam
tenuerunt ibidem.......xiij. s. iiij. d. ' [Feudal Aids IV:355[22]]
cf. CP IV:373-4[9]
J. P. Ravilious '[36]
H. Kleineke [35],[37]
10 Sir Thomas de Courtenay.
died in 1356.
knight, of Woodhuish and Dunterton, Devon and Wootton Courtenay and
Cricket Malherbe, Somerset[38]
younger son, Thomas was named as heir to brother Robert in provisions
for remainder in Woodhuish and other lands [ his father Hugh,
deforciant
in a fine of 8 Edw II [Trinity term, 1315 ]:
" with remainder, after their deaths, to Robert son of (3)
and his heirs of body; in default of such heirs, remainder to
Thomas, Robert's brother, and his heirs."
- A2A, Cornwall Record Office: Arundell of Lanherne and Trerice
[AR/1/528 - AR/1/1121], AR/1/643[3]
record of a petition to the Pope, Jul 1346:
' Thomas de Courtenay, knight, legitimate brother of the earl of
Devon. For plenary remission at the hour of death to himself and
Muriel his wife. Granted. Avignon, Kal. Aug. ' [Papal
Petitions
I:114[21], cites f. 117]
Grant dated 7 June 1355:29 Edward III :
' Grant by Thomas de Cortenay the Elder, knight, to Roger Torel of all
his
messuages, etc., which he had in Offewill and Everforde in the hundred
of
Colyton (Devon), with the advowson of Offewill and of all his
messuages,
etc., which he had in West Raddon and Allirford in the hundred of
Lyfton
(Devon). Done at Carswill Regis on the Sunday before St. Barbabas, 29
Edward III.
WITNESSES: John Dy[n]ham, William Auarle, William Dounfravyle, John de
Kelly, Robert de Courtenay, Robert Morgan, Richard Newy, John Kelly of
Southwyck, and others. With 1 seal (2.4 cm) of red wax (damaged);
bearing
an armorial sheild and the legend: SI ... HOME DE COURT ... ' [
Harvard
English Deeds Coll. , Deed 174 - 29 Edward III. 1 item : paper ; 9 x
26 cm. HOLLIS number: - AOA6353[23] ]
bef 27 Aug 1337 Sir Thomas married Muriel de Moels.[29]
11 Muriel de Moels. Born ca 1322.[9]
eldest daughter and coheiress;
received her purparty of her father's lands (including Kingskerswell,
Devon) following Thomas de Courtenay having done fealty, 6 Oct 1337[9]
she was living in 1346 [record of a petition by her husband to the
Pope,
granted 1 Aug 1346 - Papal Petitions I:114 [21], cites f. 117]
12 William de Montagu.
Born in 1301 in Salisbury.[39]
died on 30 Jan 1343, he was 42.[9]
Occupation: Earl of Salisbury.
of Shipton Montague, Somerset
3rd Lord Montagu
adherent of young Edward III in palace revolution of 1330
summoned to Parliament from 18 Feb 1330/31.[9]
created Earl of Salisbury 16 March 1336/7
Marshal of England[40]
cf. CP IX:82-3, note (f)[9]
abt 1327 when William was 26, he married Katherine de Grandison.[39]
13 Katherine de Grandison.
Born abt 1304.[39]
died on 23 Apr 1349, she was 45.[9]
youngest daughter (CP:XI:387[9]]
14 Thomas de Monthermer.
Born on 4 Oct 1301.[9],[8]
died in k. at Battle of Sluys on 24 Jun 1340, he was 38.[9],[1]
Occupation: Lord Monthermer.
2nd Lord Monthermer (not summ. to Parliament)[9]
' On 4 July 1325 he and his brother Edward made an
agreement as to certain manors in which both had an
interest; Thomas was to have Stokenham and Edward
Warblington, &c., and on 11 July Thomas granted
Edward a rent of £ 20 from Stokenham. ' [CP IX:143,
and note (c), citing Cal. Close Rolls, 1323-27, p. 492[9] ]
heir of his brother Edward
cf. CP IX:143[9],
VCH (Hampshire) III:134-136[31]
aft Mar 1322 when Thomas was 20, he married Margaret de Braose.
15 Margaret de Braose.
died bef 27 May 1349.[9]
' Margaret widow of Thomas Monthermer held Warblington in dower till
her
death in May, 1349, when it was inherited by her daughter
Margaret wife of Sir John Montagu, kt.,..'[VCH (Hampshire)
III:134-136[31]]
her identification as Margaret, daughter of Piers de Braose by Douglas
Richardson:
' A while back, I discussed evidence regarding the possible identity of
Margaret, wife successively of Henry le Tyeys, Knt. (died 1322), 2nd
Lord Tyeys, and Thomas de Monthermer, Knt. (died 1340), 2nd Lord
Monthermer. Margaret's identity is of special interest to medieval
historians and genealogists, as her 2nd husband, Sir Thomas de
Monthermer, was a grandson of King Edward I of England. By Margaret
and Thomas' daughter, Margaret de Monthermer, wife of John Montagu,
Knt., the Monthermer family is ancestral to many living descendants
today.
In my earlier post (see copy below), I noted that both Margaret and
her
first husband, Sir Henry le Tyeys, had various associations with the
family of Sir Peter de Brewes (died 1312), of Tetbury, Gloucestershire,
and his wife, Agnes de Clifford. Briefly, I found that sometime prior
to 1322, Henry le Tyeys conveyed a messuage to Peter de Brewes' widow,
Agnes de Clifford. Also, I found Henry le Tyeys' widow, Margaret,
associated with Agnes (de Clifford) de Brewes in a record shortly
before Margaret's marriage to Thomas de Monthermer. I queried if
Margaret le Tyeys might not have been a daughter of Peter de Brewes and
his wife, Agnes de Clifford. Such an arrangement is certainly possible
chronologically, as Peter de Brewes and his wife, Agnes, are known to
have married in 1300. Henry and Margaret le Tyeys were evidently
married in or about 1316, at which date, Margaret's age still required
that she needed a guardian. This implies Margaret was born in or after
1300. Also, it is known that Henry le Tyeys had the wardship and
marriage of Peter de Brewes' heirs, and thus he would have been in a
position to easily have married Peter de Brewes' daughter, if one was
available.
In the intervening time since my original post, I've determined
that
the personal seal of Margaret le Tyeys has survived, it being attached
to a document dated 1323 during the period of her first widowhood. The
seal is described in detail by Roger Ellis in his interesting book,
Catalogue of Personal Seals in the Public Record Office, vol. 2 (1981),
pg. 108:
"P2161 Margaret widow of Henry le Tyas (Tyays) 1323
In a cusped quatrefoil, hung from a triple bush, two shields of arms:
(L) a chevron [TYEYS], the field hatched, and (R) crusilly (?) a lion
rampant, queue fourchy.
SIGIL[LUM] MARGA/RET ... YAYS (Lom)
Round, c. 23, red, tongue. Good impression but edge much damaged.
E2113/25.
We see above that Margaret le Tyeys' arms on her personal seal are
crusilly a lion rampant, queue fourchy. These arms are, of course, the
well known arms of the baronial Brewes family. As such, it appears
that Margaret was a Brewes as suspected, and doubtless the daughter of
Sir Peter de Brewes.'[41]
she m. 1stly Henry le Teyes, Lord Teyes (ex. 1321) [1],
2ndly Thomas de Monthermer
cf. Richardson pp. 575-6, 814-5[42]
[ to be continued - see Part II ]
Hello All,
This is Part I -B of the detailed AT for Muriel Dinham (the
original ' Part I ' was too large, changing Google to Gaggle....).
Cheers,
John
___________________________________
Muriel (Dinham) Hastings: Ahnentafel (part I - B of IV)
8 Sir John de Dinham.
Born on 14 Sep 1295.[9]
died bef 15 Apr 1332, he was 36.[9]
knt., of Hartland, Devon, Buckland Denham, Somerset and Cardinham,
Cornwall[9]
3rd Lord Dinham
succeeded his father as a minor, and ward of the King:
Assignment [ " to Thomas, bishop of Exeter, Hugh, abbot of Hayles,
William
de Bereford and Walter de Aylesbury, executors of the will of Edmund,
earl
of Cornwall, the king's kinsman, in part payment of the king's
indebtedness
to the earl of 9,480 1/2 marks 10 1/4d.," ] of custody of his lands
during
the minority of his heir, made at Peebles [Scot.] 2 Aug. 1301:
' from 8 September next, and during the minority of the heirs, of two
parts
of the lands late of Joyce de Dynham, tenant in chief, together with
the
marriage of the heirs, worth 2,000 marks; saving to the king knights'
fees,
&c., as above.
By K[ing]., on the information of W., bishop of Coventry and
Lichfield.
Mandate in pursuance to Walter de Gloucestre, escheator beyond Trent.
Mandate to Margery, late the wife of the said Joyce, to deliver the
body
of the heir of the said Joyce, which is said to be in her custody, to
the
said executors to be married. ' [CPR 1292-1301, p. 603[32]]
assessment of a feudal aid, for his manor of Buckland Denham in the
hundred
of Kynemerdeston, Somerset in 1303:
' Johannes de Denham, heres Jocelini de Denham, tenet terciam partem
un. f.
in Boclaund et est in custodia domini regis ' [Feudal Aids IV:310[22]]
came of age, September 1316:
'A few years after the death of Sir Oliver de Dynham, his son, Josce's
son and heir, John de Dynham, came of age. This took place in 1316.
Shortly before John obtained livery of his father's lands, Hugh de
Courtenay (grandson of Isabel de Vere) wrote a letter to William de
Airmyn dated c. September 1316, in which he requested assistance for
his kinsman, John de Dynham, now of age, in obtaining seisin of his
lands [Reference: List of Ancient Correspondence, Lists and Indexes,
No. XV, reprinted 1968, pg. 552; cf. Index to Ancient Correspondence
of the Chancery and the Exchequer, 1 (Lists and Indexes, Supplementary
Series, No. XV) (reprinted 1969), pp. 308, 351]. The King
subsequently took John de Dynham's homage, and he had livery of his
father's lands, 18 October 1316.'[33]
~ NOTE: this evidence supports his relationship to the Courtenay family
as
shown (based on common descent from his paternal grandmother, Isabel
de Vere)
' Jn. de Dynham ' , entered into agreement with Sir Otto de Bodrugan as
to the advowson of the church of La Roche, recognized as below to John
de Dinham:
Agreement dated at Lostwythiel, 6 November 1318 :
1. Jn. de Dynham
2. Sir Otto de Bodrugan, Kt.
(Rec. on recent vacancy of church of La Roche in diocese of Exeter by
death
of Clement de la roche there was a controversy on the right of
patronage
between him and Sir Otto de Bodrugan, Knight. Latter brought writ of
quare
impedit against him in the King's court)
(2) recognised (1)'s right to advowson in court.
(1) had to pay costs awarded.
Alternate sealing clause. ' - A2A, Cornwall Record Office: Edgcumbe
of
Cotehele and Mount Edgcumbe [ME/1540 - ME/3660], ME/2905[3]
' Johan de Dynham ', summoned for military service 20 February 1324/5 -
to
appear at Portsmouth 'mounted and armed' - in France, by letters under
privy seal of King Edward II [ Foedera, pp. 591-2[34]]
IPM of John de Dynham, held at Exeter, 20 June 1332[26]
cf. CP IV:372-3[9]
Chope pp. 432-3[26]
ca 1310 when Sir John was 14, he married Margaret de Botreaux.[9]
9 Margaret de Botreaux. Margaret died bef 16 Jan 1361.[9]
Genealogics #I00429089[4]
' Margaret Botreaux ' as identified by Dr. Hannes Kleineke.[35]
record of a petition to the Pope, Jul 1346:
' Margaret, late the wife of John de Dynham, knight. For plenary
remission at the hour of death to herself and her legitimate sons,
John de Dynham, knight, and Oliver de Dynham. Granted.
[ Avignon, Kal. Aug. ] ' [Papal Petitions I:114[21], cites f. 117]
assessment of a feudal aid, for his manor of Buckland Denham in the
hundred
of Kynemersdon, Somerset in 1346 (which she held in dower):
' De Margareta, que fuit uxor Johannis de Denham, pro iij. parte un. f.
in
Bouclond quam Johannes de Denham et heres Johanne de Denham quondam
tenuerunt ibidem.......xiij. s. iiij. d. ' [Feudal Aids IV:355[22]]
cf. CP IV:373-4[9]
J. P. Ravilious '[36]
H. Kleineke [35],[37]
10 Sir Thomas de Courtenay.
died in 1356.
knight, of Woodhuish and Dunterton, Devon and Wootton Courtenay and
Cricket Malherbe, Somerset[38]
younger son, Thomas was named as heir to brother Robert in provisions
for remainder in Woodhuish and other lands [ his father Hugh,
deforciant
in a fine of 8 Edw II [Trinity term, 1315 ]:
" with remainder, after their deaths, to Robert son of (3)
and his heirs of body; in default of such heirs, remainder to
Thomas, Robert's brother, and his heirs."
- A2A, Cornwall Record Office: Arundell of Lanherne and Trerice
[AR/1/528 - AR/1/1121], AR/1/643[3]
record of a petition to the Pope, Jul 1346:
' Thomas de Courtenay, knight, legitimate brother of the earl of
Devon. For plenary remission at the hour of death to himself and
Muriel his wife. Granted. Avignon, Kal. Aug. ' [Papal
Petitions
I:114[21], cites f. 117]
Grant dated 7 June 1355:29 Edward III :
' Grant by Thomas de Cortenay the Elder, knight, to Roger Torel of all
his
messuages, etc., which he had in Offewill and Everforde in the hundred
of
Colyton (Devon), with the advowson of Offewill and of all his
messuages,
etc., which he had in West Raddon and Allirford in the hundred of
Lyfton
(Devon). Done at Carswill Regis on the Sunday before St. Barbabas, 29
Edward III.
WITNESSES: John Dy[n]ham, William Auarle, William Dounfravyle, John de
Kelly, Robert de Courtenay, Robert Morgan, Richard Newy, John Kelly of
Southwyck, and others. With 1 seal (2.4 cm) of red wax (damaged);
bearing
an armorial sheild and the legend: SI ... HOME DE COURT ... ' [
Harvard
English Deeds Coll. , Deed 174 - 29 Edward III. 1 item : paper ; 9 x
26 cm. HOLLIS number: - AOA6353[23] ]
bef 27 Aug 1337 Sir Thomas married Muriel de Moels.[29]
11 Muriel de Moels. Born ca 1322.[9]
eldest daughter and coheiress;
received her purparty of her father's lands (including Kingskerswell,
Devon) following Thomas de Courtenay having done fealty, 6 Oct 1337[9]
she was living in 1346 [record of a petition by her husband to the
Pope,
granted 1 Aug 1346 - Papal Petitions I:114 [21], cites f. 117]
12 William de Montagu.
Born in 1301 in Salisbury.[39]
died on 30 Jan 1343, he was 42.[9]
Occupation: Earl of Salisbury.
of Shipton Montague, Somerset
3rd Lord Montagu
adherent of young Edward III in palace revolution of 1330
summoned to Parliament from 18 Feb 1330/31.[9]
created Earl of Salisbury 16 March 1336/7
Marshal of England[40]
cf. CP IX:82-3, note (f)[9]
abt 1327 when William was 26, he married Katherine de Grandison.[39]
13 Katherine de Grandison.
Born abt 1304.[39]
died on 23 Apr 1349, she was 45.[9]
youngest daughter (CP:XI:387[9]]
14 Thomas de Monthermer.
Born on 4 Oct 1301.[9],[8]
died in k. at Battle of Sluys on 24 Jun 1340, he was 38.[9],[1]
Occupation: Lord Monthermer.
2nd Lord Monthermer (not summ. to Parliament)[9]
' On 4 July 1325 he and his brother Edward made an
agreement as to certain manors in which both had an
interest; Thomas was to have Stokenham and Edward
Warblington, &c., and on 11 July Thomas granted
Edward a rent of £ 20 from Stokenham. ' [CP IX:143,
and note (c), citing Cal. Close Rolls, 1323-27, p. 492[9] ]
heir of his brother Edward
cf. CP IX:143[9],
VCH (Hampshire) III:134-136[31]
aft Mar 1322 when Thomas was 20, he married Margaret de Braose.
15 Margaret de Braose.
died bef 27 May 1349.[9]
' Margaret widow of Thomas Monthermer held Warblington in dower till
her
death in May, 1349, when it was inherited by her daughter
Margaret wife of Sir John Montagu, kt.,..'[VCH (Hampshire)
III:134-136[31]]
her identification as Margaret, daughter of Piers de Braose by Douglas
Richardson:
' A while back, I discussed evidence regarding the possible identity of
Margaret, wife successively of Henry le Tyeys, Knt. (died 1322), 2nd
Lord Tyeys, and Thomas de Monthermer, Knt. (died 1340), 2nd Lord
Monthermer. Margaret's identity is of special interest to medieval
historians and genealogists, as her 2nd husband, Sir Thomas de
Monthermer, was a grandson of King Edward I of England. By Margaret
and Thomas' daughter, Margaret de Monthermer, wife of John Montagu,
Knt., the Monthermer family is ancestral to many living descendants
today.
In my earlier post (see copy below), I noted that both Margaret and
her
first husband, Sir Henry le Tyeys, had various associations with the
family of Sir Peter de Brewes (died 1312), of Tetbury, Gloucestershire,
and his wife, Agnes de Clifford. Briefly, I found that sometime prior
to 1322, Henry le Tyeys conveyed a messuage to Peter de Brewes' widow,
Agnes de Clifford. Also, I found Henry le Tyeys' widow, Margaret,
associated with Agnes (de Clifford) de Brewes in a record shortly
before Margaret's marriage to Thomas de Monthermer. I queried if
Margaret le Tyeys might not have been a daughter of Peter de Brewes and
his wife, Agnes de Clifford. Such an arrangement is certainly possible
chronologically, as Peter de Brewes and his wife, Agnes, are known to
have married in 1300. Henry and Margaret le Tyeys were evidently
married in or about 1316, at which date, Margaret's age still required
that she needed a guardian. This implies Margaret was born in or after
1300. Also, it is known that Henry le Tyeys had the wardship and
marriage of Peter de Brewes' heirs, and thus he would have been in a
position to easily have married Peter de Brewes' daughter, if one was
available.
In the intervening time since my original post, I've determined
that
the personal seal of Margaret le Tyeys has survived, it being attached
to a document dated 1323 during the period of her first widowhood. The
seal is described in detail by Roger Ellis in his interesting book,
Catalogue of Personal Seals in the Public Record Office, vol. 2 (1981),
pg. 108:
"P2161 Margaret widow of Henry le Tyas (Tyays) 1323
In a cusped quatrefoil, hung from a triple bush, two shields of arms:
(L) a chevron [TYEYS], the field hatched, and (R) crusilly (?) a lion
rampant, queue fourchy.
SIGIL[LUM] MARGA/RET ... YAYS (Lom)
Round, c. 23, red, tongue. Good impression but edge much damaged.
E2113/25.
We see above that Margaret le Tyeys' arms on her personal seal are
crusilly a lion rampant, queue fourchy. These arms are, of course, the
well known arms of the baronial Brewes family. As such, it appears
that Margaret was a Brewes as suspected, and doubtless the daughter of
Sir Peter de Brewes.'[41]
she m. 1stly Henry le Teyes, Lord Teyes (ex. 1321) [1],
2ndly Thomas de Monthermer
cf. Richardson pp. 575-6, 814-5[42]
[ to be continued - see Part II ]