Breaute and Geneville ancestry: King Stephen of England

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Gjest

Breaute and Geneville ancestry: King Stephen of England

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 des 2005 05:11:01

Wednesday, 15 December, 2005



Dear Jean, Roger, Gordon,et al.,

Recent threads on SGM have included discussion of the ancestry
of Herve IV (or I) of Leon, primarily having to do with a descent
to the Breaute family. From what I had read, the ancestry traced
stopped a generation or two from a rather interesting connection
given in the Gesta Stephani, and reflected (in part) on
Genealogics.

The author of the Gesta Stephani recounts in part the siege of
Devizes, and that at in 1140 the command of the castle was given


‘ to Hervey the Breton, a man of distinction and soldierly
qualities and the king's son-in-law ' [ " Herueo Britoni,
uiro illustri et militari et genero regis " ] ‘ [1]


This identification is evidently followed in CP XII/2 under
Wiltshire, as Herve de Leon was created Earl of Wiltshire ca. 1140
by King Stephen.

Some time ago, Olivier Cocheril had indicated that Maud de
Porhoet, the wife of Geoffrey de Fougeres (d. 1212; see pedigree
below, Generation 1.1.1.1) was a daughter of Eudo II de Porhoet by
his 2nd wife, a daughter of Herve II de Leon. The one dispute I
noted was whether Maud was the daughter of Eudo II, or of his son
Eudo III: most importantly, if this descent is correct and the
daughter of King Stephen was the mother of Eudo II de Porhoet’s
wife, there is rather interesting additional ancestry for both the
Breaute descendants, and for a myriad of others via Joan de
Geneville, wife of the infamous Roger de Mortimer (executed 1330)
as given below.

If you should have additional documentation re: this descent,
or further comment/criticism of the pedigree given below, that
would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,


John *




NOTES

[1] K. R. Potter, ed., Gesta Stephani (Oxford: The Clarendon
Press, 1976), 53 [p. 109].



Descent from King Stephen ‘I’ of England


1 Stephen of Blois
----------------------------------------
Death: 25 Oct 1154[1]
Occ: King of England 1135-1154
Father: Stephen-Henry of Blois (1047-1102)
Mother: Adela of Normandy (~1062-1137)

3rd son
Count of Boulogne de jure uxoris, 1125

made King of England 1135 (opposed by Matilda, her husband
Geoffrey of Anjou, and young Henry of Anjou)
agreed to succession by Henry (II) of Anjou by Treaty of
Winchester, 1153

Spouse: NN [not married; possibly named Dameta]

Children: NN

Other Spouses Matilda of Boulogne


1.1 NN 'filia Stephani'
----------------------------------------

evidently illegitimate daughter

re: her husband:

vicomte de Leon
created Earl of Wiltshire by King Stephen, ca. 1140

he married a daughter (evidently illegitimate) of King Stephen:
' Hervey the Breton, a man of distinction and soldierly qualities
and the king's son-in-law ' [ " Herueo Britoni, uiro illustri et
militari et genero regis " ] [ Gesta Stephani 53 (p. 109)[2]]

correction (concerning parentage of their granddaughter Maud de
Porhoet) provided by O. Cocheril[3]

cf. Gesta Stephani 53 (p. 109), 57 (p. 117)[2]

Spouse: Herve II, vicomte de Leon[3]
Father: Guiomar III, vicomte de Leon
Marr: ca 1139

Children: NN


1.1.1 NN de Leon
----------------------------------------

2nd wife
identification as mother of Eudo III provided in correction by
O. Cocheril[3]

Spouse: Eudo of Porhoet
Death: ca 1185[4],[3]
Father: Geoffrey of Porhoet (-1141)
Mother: Hawise of Brittany

Children: Eudo III (-1234)
Maud


1.1.1.1 Maud de Porhoet[5]
----------------------------------------

a daughter of Eudo III of Porhoet according to M. Talbot[3]

based on chronology of the family, placed here as more likely a
daughter of Eudo II

Spouse: Geoffrey de Fougeres
Death: 15 Dec 1212[5]
Father: Guillaume de Fougeres, seigneur de Fougeres (-1187)
Mother: Agatha de Hummet

Children: Raoul III (-1256)


1.1.1.1.1 Raoul III de Fougeres
----------------------------------------
Death: 24 Feb 1256[6],[5]
Burial: Savigny abbey[6]
Occ: seigneur de Fougeres

lord of Fougeres (Brittany)[7]

called Raoul II (cf. ES I, Band III Tafel 816[6])

cf. ES I, Band III Tafel 719[6]

Spouse: Isabel de Craon[5]
Birth: aft 1223[6]
Death: aft 15 Jan 1275[6]
Father: Amaury de Craon, sieur de Craon (-1226)
Mother: Jeanne des Roches (-<1241)
Marr: Feb 1234[6]

Children: Jeanne (->1273)


1.1.1.1.1.1 Jeanne de Fougeres[5]
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1273[6]

heiress of Fougeres[7]

cf. ES I, Band III Tafel 816[6]

Spouse: Hugh XII de Lusignan, comte de La Marche et Angoulême
Death: aft 25 Aug 1270[6],[8]
Father: Hugh XI 'le Brun' de Lusignan (1221-1250)
Mother: Yolande de Dreux (1218-1272)
Marr: 29 Jan 1253[6],[5]

Children: Yolande (1257-1314)
Hugh XIII (1259-1303), comte de La Marche et Angoulême
Jeanne (~1262-~1323)
Marie (1269-1312)
Isabelle (1269-1303)
Guy (1270-<1308)


1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Jeanne de Lusignan[5]
----------------------------------------
Birth: abt 1262[6]
Death: abt 14 Sep 1323[7]

' Jeanne de la Marche, Dame de Couhe et de Peyrat ' (cf. ES I,
Band III Tafel 816[6])

had dower in Ludlow, co. Salop. including the market and fair:
'1292, mercatum, held by Johanna, late the wife of Peter de
Genevill, Theobald de Verdun and Johanne, Beatrice and Matilda,
daughters and heiresses of Peter de Genevill (QW, p. 678).'

'Johanna, late the wife of Peter de Genevill held part of the manor
from Godfrey de Genevill and his wife Matilda with Theobald de
Verdun, of the inheritance of Johanne, Beatrice and Matilda,
daughters and heiresses of Peter de Genevill. Johanne, Beatrice
and Matilda were under age.'[9]

Summoned for military service in her husbands stead, against the
King of France, by writ directed 'Johanna que fuit uxor Petri
de Geynvill', 24 May 1297.[7]

coheiress of her brother Guiard, Count of La Marche:
in satisfaction of her claim, received the reversion to her and
her heirs of the castles and chatellenies of Couhe in Poitou and
Peyrat in Limousin, by charter dated 22 Feb 1309/10 from the
King of France; then also the like reversion of the towns of
St-Hilaire and Pontarion, Aug 1310[7]

Spouse: Piers de Geneville, Lord of Trim [Ireland]
Birth: abt 1258
Death: bef 8 Jun 1292, d.v.p.[5],[7]
Father: Geoffrey de Geneville (~1226-1314)
Mother: Maud de Lacy (-1304)
Marr: bef 11 Oct 1283[10]

Children: Joan (1285-1356)
Beatrice (<1287->1291)
Maud (<1291->1291)


1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Joan de Geneville
----------------------------------------
Birth: 2 Feb 1285[10],[7]
Death: 19 Oct 1356[7]

'Johanne', recorded as beneficiary of a fair and market at
Ludlow, 1292, as one of the 'daughters and heiresses of Peter
de Genevill'[9]

heiress of grandparents Geoffrey de Geneville and Maud de Lacy
Received title to his lands in Ireland through licence granted
for this gift, 24 Dec 1307[7]

had charter together with husband Roger de Mortimer for a fair
at Ludlow, dated 25 Nov 1328[9]

re: her husband Roger de Mortimer

of Wigmore, co. Hereford
Baron of Wigmore
tenant in chief in Thornton and Melbourne,
Harthill wapentake (East Riding), co. Yorks. [VCH III: 183[11]]

supporter of Thomas, Earl of Lancaster against King Edward II;
captured following the battle of Boroughbridge, 22 March 1321/2
and the return of the Despensers to power; sentenced to death
together with uncle Roger de Mortimer, then commuted to life
imprisonment 22 July 1322.

Escaped from the Tower 1 August 1324 and fled via Dover to France[12]

established liaison with Queen Isabella (of England) in France;
invaded England at Orwell (Suffolk) with small force from Hainaut
24 Sept 1326
defeated and executed the Despensers; deposed Edward II at
Kenilworth, January 1326/7[13]

created Earl of March Oct 1328[7]
lover of Isabella (Queen of Edward II), and conspirator in his
deposition, 1327[14].
Executed at Tyburn after palace revolution of 1330 by Edward III.[7]

His honours were forfeit by his attainder[7]

Spouse: Sir Roger de Mortimer, Earl of March
Birth: 25 Apr 1287[15]
Death: 29 Nov 1330, Tyburn (executed)[14]
Father: Sir Edmund de Mortimer (<1252-1304)
Mother: Margaret de Fiennes (1268-1333)
Marr: bef 6 Oct 1306[7]

Children: Sir Edmund (~1306-1331), Lord Mortimer
Margaret (>1307-1337)
Joan
Sir Geoffrey
Sir Roger
Katherine (-1369)
Maud
Agnes
John
Blanche
Beatrice


1. Paul Theroff, "The House of Champagne-Blois," Paul Theroff's
Dynastic Genealogy Files,
http://worldroots.com/brigitte/pther_e.html
originally found at: worldroots.clicktron.com/brigitte/theroff/.
2. K. R. Potter, ed., "Gesta Stephani," Oxford: The Clarendon
Press, 1976.
3. Mike Talbot, "Lusignan and Fougeres," Feb 10, 1999,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, additional information and
correction from Olivier Cocheril.
4. W. L. Warren, "Henry II," University of California Press,
1973, [English Monarchs Series].
5. Frederick L. Weis (add/corr, Walter L Sheppard Jr.),
"Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists," Baltimore:
Genealogical Pub. Co.
6. Detlev Schewennicke, "Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln
zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge,"
[ " European Family Trees: Family Trees for the History of
European States, New Series " ], Marburg, Germany: Verlag
von J. A. Stargardt, 1978-1995 [3rd series], First series by
Wilhelm Karl, Prinz zu Isenburg, continued second series by
Frank, Baron Freytag von Loringhoven.
7. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 - [microprint,
1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England Scotland
Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
8. Todd A. Farmerie, "De Lusignan/d'Eu," 14 June 1996,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, additional comments and input
from W. A. Reitwiesner (13 June) and Jim Stevens (2 Nov).
9. "Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs to 1516,"
http://www.histparl.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/
10. "Ancestors of Edmund de Mortimer," David Utzinger
UTZ@aol.com, 4 August 2000.
11. K. J. Allison, ed., "A History of the County of York, East
Riding," Oxford: published for the Institute of Historical
Research, Oxford Univ. Press, 1969, Vol. III.
12. Chris Phillips, "Re: Burial Place of Roger de Mortimer
(d. 1330)," September 15, 2002, paper copy: library of John P.
Ravilious, cites CP vol. VIII pp. 436-7; also Cal. Patent
Rolls, 1321-4.
13. Jonathan Sumption, "The Hundred Years War," Philadelphia:
University of Pennsylvania Press, 1999 (first US pub. in 1991;
in Britain, 1990), Vol. I: Trial by Battle.
14. David Williamson, "Brewer's British Royalty,"
Cassell/Wellington House, 1996.
15. Douglas Richardson, "Mortimer account," November 19, 2002,
paper copy: library of John Ravilious, cites sources for
history of Mortimer family, including Wigmore chronicle
(in Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum).


* John P. Ravilious

Gjest

Re: Breaute and Geneville ancestry: King Stephen of England

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 des 2005 05:19:00

Thank you for pointing out the interesting possibility that Herve III,
vicomte and comte de Leon (+ 1169) was married to a natural daughter of
Stephan of Blois, king of England.

I must say I have seen Herve III also married to a daughter of comte d
Aumale, another member of the house of Blois conspicuously named also
Stephan, as in recent article by Patrice Birker in French periodical
Heraldique et Genealogie (98.I.178/179)

Further more, I remember reading that Herve III assumed the style of
comte de Leon (the first of his lineage to do so) because of a comital
honour he held in England. I suppose it would identify with the earldom
of Wiltshire.

Is that connection documented enough ? What do you think ?

Jean Bunot

John P. Ravilious

Re: Breaute and Geneville ancestry: King Stephen of England

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 16 des 2005 21:27:47

2nd attempt at posting [original post Googled/gobbled previously]
_____________________________________________

Dear Jean,

I am unaware of any documentation as to the alleged marriage of
Herve (III) de Leon and a daughter of Stephen, count of Aumale. The
chronology would certainly permit it (Stephen's son William of Aumale
was evidently born 'before 1110' and his daughters - 3 or 4 of them -
likely born say 1105-1115). I see one website shows that Herve's son
Guiomar was born of a daughter (allegedly Adelisa) of Stephen of
Aumale; likewise, it assigns a daughter Sibyl/Sibylla to Stephen of
Blois, and as a 2nd wife of Herve III: she is shown as the mother of
Eudo III of Porhoet, and the ancestress of the Fougeres and Geneville
descendants as given in my pedigree yesterday.

Herve's involvement with Stephen, elevation to the Earldom of
Wiltshire, and marriage to Stephen's (illegitimate) daughter all seem
documented and accepted - see also Vivien Brown's edition of Eye Priory
Cartulary and Charters I:26 (in addition to the Gesta Stephani, she
also cites William of Malmesbury's Historia Novella, 31).

~ Obviously, whether the Aumale or Blois wife, there is a descent
here from Robert 'the Devil', Duke of Normandy and father of William
the Conqueror (and from 'le Conquerant' if the Blois wife).

Beyond this, I think the lineage could stand further
documentation. If someone has access to KSB K-R's Domesday
Descendants, a listing there for Adelisa d'Aumale or another daughter
of Stephen of Aumale may reveal what has been found as to her alleged
marital/maternal career.

Leo, I see on Genealogics that the daughter of Stephen of Blois
is given as the ancestress of the subsequent vicomtes de Leon - might I
ask which of the source/sources listed provided this detail?

Cheers,

John



magnusrufus@yahoo.com wrote:
Thank you for pointing out the interesting possibility that Herve III,
vicomte and comte de Leon (+ 1169) was married to a natural daughter of
Stephan of Blois, king of England.

I must say I have seen Herve III also married to a daughter of comte d
Aumale, another member of the house of Blois conspicuously named also
Stephan, as in recent article by Patrice Birker in French periodical
Heraldique et Genealogie (98.I.178/179)

Further more, I remember reading that Herve III assumed the style of
comte de Leon (the first of his lineage to do so) because of a comital
honour he held in England. I suppose it would identify with the earldom
of Wiltshire.

Is that connection documented enough ? What do you think ?

Jean Bunot

Gjest

Re: Breaute and Geneville ancestry: King Stephen of England

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 des 2005 22:00:02

If I may, here below is a more reliable descent from the house of
Normandie for the Leon lineage :

Henri I Beauclerc, king of England and duc de Normandie (1068-1135)

Mathilde, batarde d Angleterre et de Normandie
m. Conon III le Gros, duc de Bretagne (+ 1118)

Berthe, duchesse de Bretagne (+ 1158/64)
m. 1137 Alain II de Bretagne-Penthievre, dit le Noir, comte de
Guincamp, earl of Richmond (+ 1146)

Constance de Bretagne, dame de Mur et de Corlay
m. 1160. Alain III, vicomte de Rohan, seigneur de Guemene (+ 1195)

Marguerite de Rohan
m. 1180, Herve I, vicomte de Leon (+ 1208), head of the vicomtes de
Leon, later seigneurs de Noyon, Chateauneuf et Hacqueville

With my compliments,

Jean Bunot

Roger LeBlanc

Re: Breaute and Geneville ancestry: King Stephen of England

Legg inn av Roger LeBlanc » 17 des 2005 05:13:01

Just a quick note to say thanks John for posting this line. I will need
some time to look it over but am glad to see the interest and new
possibilities to explore.

Roger LeBlanc

Roger LeBlanc

Re: Breaute and Geneville ancestry: King Stephen of England

Legg inn av Roger LeBlanc » 18 des 2005 23:47:02

A couple of quick questions. Is the line from Henri I to Constance
solid? (i.e. the connection of Berthe to the parents shown)

magnusrufus@yahoo.com wrote:

If I may, here below is a more reliable descent from the house of
Normandie for the Leon lineage :

Henri I Beauclerc, king of England and duc de Normandie (1068-1135)

Mathilde, batarde d Angleterre et de Normandie
m. Conon III le Gros, duc de Bretagne (+ 1118)

Berthe, duchesse de Bretagne (+ 1158/64)
m. 1137 Alain II de Bretagne-Penthievre, dit le Noir, comte de
Guincamp, earl of Richmond (+ 1146)

Constance de Bretagne, dame de Mur et de Corlay
m. 1160. Alain III, vicomte de Rohan, seigneur de Guemene (+ 1195)

message snipped

And for Constance wasn't this a second marriage?


Thanks for any assistance.
Roger LeBlanc

John P. Ravilious

Re: Breaute and Geneville ancestry: King Stephen of England

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 19 des 2005 01:02:22

Dear Roger,

The descent down to (and including) Bertha, as daughter of Conan
III and Maud (or Matilda) is solid. This is given in Complete Peerage
(CP X:788 according to my notes), and also W. L. Warren's classic work
on Henry II of England.

Constance is new to me; perhaps Jean or another of the list has
solid documentation for that generation......?

Cheers,

John




Roger LeBlanc wrote:
A couple of quick questions. Is the line from Henri I to Constance
solid? (i.e. the connection of Berthe to the parents shown)

magnusrufus@yahoo.com wrote:

If I may, here below is a more reliable descent from the house of
Normandie for the Leon lineage :

Henri I Beauclerc, king of England and duc de Normandie (1068-1135)

Mathilde, batarde d Angleterre et de Normandie
m. Conon III le Gros, duc de Bretagne (+ 1118)

Berthe, duchesse de Bretagne (+ 1158/64)
m. 1137 Alain II de Bretagne-Penthievre, dit le Noir, comte de
Guincamp, earl of Richmond (+ 1146)

Constance de Bretagne, dame de Mur et de Corlay
m. 1160. Alain III, vicomte de Rohan, seigneur de Guemene (+ 1195)

message snipped

And for Constance wasn't this a second marriage?

Thanks for any assistance.
Roger LeBlanc

Gjest

Re: Breaute and Geneville ancestry: King Stephen of England

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 des 2005 09:04:48

Thank you for your question.

The marriage of Constance de Bretagne to Alain III de Bretagne is quite
classic material. I think every secundary sources will mention it with
details from ES to Pere Anselme (in both Bretagne et Rohan chapters).

The lady is fairly well known because she was intended to marry a king
of Scotland (a marriage which never took place) and later
unsuccessfully flattered herself to become the wife of recently
separated king Louis VII. After all those royal prospects, she ended up
marrying a mere vicomte de Rohan, still the first baron in Bretagne
after the ducal house.

For the primary sources :

Constance as a bretonne princesse in specifically named with her
husband vicomte Alain III de Rohan on June 24 1184 when they cofounded
the cistercian abbey of Bon-Repos/Bonrepos near Saint-Gelven in the
bishopric of Quimper (Bretagne). They eventually both were layed to
rest in the cript of the abbey as were most of his successors, later
vicomtes de Rohan.

Somehow the english family connections of Constance appear to have been
instrumental in the founding of the abbey. Further more, she granted
and donated to the abbey the full possession of the church of Foleborn
(sic) in the bishopric of Ely which came to her through her english
royal ancestors. If my memory in not failling me as it often does, I
believe she is precisely described as kindred to Henry II of England in
charters pertaining to Bon-Repos.

On the grounds of onomastics, we find Constance de Leon, wife of Payen
de Malestroit, d/o vicomte Herve I de Leon and Marguerite de Rohan,
evidently named after her grand-mother Constance de Bretagne,
vicomtesse de Rohan.

See for details Dom Lobineau, Histoire de Bretagne and the Patrick
Birker article.

With my compliments

Jean Bunot

Gjest

Re: Breaute and Geneville ancestry: King Stephen of England

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 des 2005 09:09:30

Sorry I meant "the marriage of Constance de Bretagne to Alain III de
ROHAN". Please correct. Jean Bunot

Roger LeBlanc

Constance de Bretagne (was Re: Breaute and Geneville ancestr

Legg inn av Roger LeBlanc » 19 des 2005 19:22:02

Thanks to John and Jean for the replies. I should have done more
checking before posting to the list but the information is appreciated.

The information about Constance is especially interesting. The Roglo
database, -not the most reliable place to start, I know, shows her as
Constance 'de Penthièvre' daughter of Alain le Noir/Berthe de
Cornouaille, duchesse de Bretagne, and shows a first marriage with
Guillaume/William Plantagenet, who dies in 1164. Is this the same
Constance? If so then it must place her marriage to Alain III de Rohan
after his death. This has significance for the year of birth for her
daughter Marguerite who is the wife of Hervé I de Léon, and in turn on a
number of other questions.

It is probably wise to get a reply to this question of the
Constance/Plantagenet marriage before going further. Regardless, can we
date the marriage of Constance/Alain?

Roger LeBlanc

Gjest

Re: Constance de Bretagne (was Re: Breaute and Geneville anc

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 des 2005 19:51:34

Dear Roger. The Constance you are thinking of is her niece, the
reigning duchesse Constance I (1161-1201), d/o duc Conon IV le Petit
and Marguerite of Scotland, successively married to (1) 1181, Geoffroy
Plantagenêt (+ 1186); (2) 1188, Ranulph de Blundeville, earl of Chester
(div.); ( 3) 1199, Guy de Thouars (+ 1213). Her daughter by third
union, Alix de Thouars, brought Bretagne by marriage in the house of
Dreux.

Jean Bunot

Gjest

Re: Constance de Bretagne (was Re: Breaute and Geneville anc

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 des 2005 20:08:54

We do not have the exact date of marriage of Constance and Alain de
Rohan. But the marriage logically occured after the separation of Louis
VII and Alienor d Aquitaine in 1152, since the princesse then
unsuccessefully offered herself to king Louis VII to become his queen.
It is only after that episode that she married vicomte Alain III de
Rohan. So you can date the wedding somewhere after 1152. She was
married as the sister of Conon IV rather then the daughter of duchesse
Berthe. So we can also imply that the marriage happened after 1156 when
Conon became duc. And if we consider those dates in relation with the
known family history of the contemporary Rohan, I dare say about 1160
or a bit earlier. Jean Bunot

Roger LeBlanc

Re: Constance de Bretagne

Legg inn av Roger LeBlanc » 19 des 2005 21:00:02

I had in mind a large portion of the de Leon lineage with these
questions. The problem goes back to how many successive Herve there were
between the one who married Marguerite de Rohan and the husband of
Mahaut de Poissy. This was addressed by you last December, Jean, when
you posted "Ancestry of Herve IV (V) de Leon" showing the traditional
and revised lines. I replied at the time that the chronology was a
little tight with the revised version, which it is more so with a
birthdate of 1165 or later for Marguerite de Rohan. If her birth is
pushed back to 1160 or earlier that helps, though I am not sure
convincingly so.
I have seen Patrice Birker's article giving the revised line, though it
seems lost to me at the moment.

I note also that in the ahnentafel you posted in September for Guy
LeBouteiller you show the traditional line, omitting the generation
Herve/Jeanne de Rohan, which is the point at which my ahnentafel
diverged significantly from yours. Have you learned anything more about
this Jeanne and her place in the de Leon family (if she belongs at all)?

Roger LeBlanc

magnusrufus@yahoo.com wrote:

We do not have the exact date of marriage of Constance and Alain de
Rohan. But the marriage logically occured after the separation of Louis
VII and Alienor d Aquitaine in 1152, since the princesse then
unsuccessefully offered herself to king Louis VII to become his queen.
It is only after that episode that she married vicomte Alain III de
Rohan. So you can date the wedding somewhere after 1152. She was
married as the sister of Conon IV rather then the daughter of duchesse
Berthe. So we can also imply that the marriage happened after 1156 when
Conon became duc. And if we consider those dates in relation with the
known family history of the contemporary Rohan, I dare say about 1160
or a bit earlier. Jean Bunot



Gjest

Re: Constance de Bretagne

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 des 2005 00:09:52

Jeanne de Rohan and Marguerite de Rohan, that is 2 different questions.

I have indeed accepted the traditional pedigree of the vicomtes de Leon
versus the new one, because it seems to be more widely accepted in
specialized litterature and by serious genealogical compilators. I
think it is more sound chronologically and historically. And I actually
believe Jeanne de Rohan, if anybody can proove he existence within the
houses of Rohan or Leon which I cannot, to rather be one of the wives
of Herve V (VI) (+ 1337) otherwise married with posterity, in 1307, to
Jeanne de Montmorency-Conflans, dame de Fremerville.

Gjest

Re: Constance de Bretagne

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 des 2005 00:24:06

I really fail to see the chronological problem you seem to anticipate
in the Leon lineage. Would you help me to understand your chronological
concerns. In the mean time, please consider the following line :

Berthe, duchesse de Bretagne (+ 1158/64)
m. 1137 Alain II de Bretagne-Penthievre, dit le Noir, comte de
Guincamp, earl of Richmond (+ 1146)

Constance de Bretagne, dame de Mur et de Corlay
m. about 1160. Alain III, vicomte de Rohan, seigneur de Guemene (+
1195)

Marguerite de Rohan
m. about 1180, Herve I, vicomte de Leon (+ 1208)

Herve II de Leon (+ young crusade 1218)
m. about 1210/15 Anne de Hennebon, dame de Guemene

Herve III de Leon
m. about 1250/60, Marguerite de Chateauneuf

Herve IV de Leon (+ 1304)
m. 1280, Mahaut de Poissy

Jean Bunot

Roger LeBlanc

Re: Constance de Bretagne

Legg inn av Roger LeBlanc » 20 des 2005 01:24:01

The line as you show it below does not present a problem. The problem
arises when the extra generation is inserted (as Birker suggests)
consisting of an additional Herve who marries Jeanne de Rohan between
Herve III and Herve IV. If it is possible, then it is with very little
"wiggle room".
Following your earlier posting, I agree that this extra generation is
unlikely, and Jeanne may have been an additional wife to either Herve
III or IV.

Roger LeBlanc

magnusrufus@yahoo.com wrote:

I really fail to see the chronological problem you seem to anticipate
in the Leon lineage. Would you help me to understand your chronological
concerns. In the mean time, please consider the following line :

Berthe, duchesse de Bretagne (+ 1158/64)
m. 1137 Alain II de Bretagne-Penthievre, dit le Noir, comte de
Guincamp, earl of Richmond (+ 1146)

Constance de Bretagne, dame de Mur et de Corlay
m. about 1160. Alain III, vicomte de Rohan, seigneur de Guemene (+
1195)

Marguerite de Rohan
m. about 1180, Herve I, vicomte de Leon (+ 1208)

Herve II de Leon (+ young crusade 1218)
m. about 1210/15 Anne de Hennebon, dame de Guemene

Herve III de Leon
m. about 1250/60, Marguerite de Chateauneuf

Herve IV de Leon (+ 1304)
m. 1280, Mahaut de Poissy

Jean Bunot



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