Fw: Roger le Poitevin

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Leo van de Pas

Fw: Roger le Poitevin

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 15 des 2005 05:15:16

The discussion is now on another deadend. Version C of Roger's charter for St Mary's Lancaster cannot be a "genuine" confirmation. Kathleen Thompson gave reasons for placing this document between 1130 and 1150. Whenever it was concocted, Roger the Poitevin was not available to subscribe charters in England after 1102. He was in exile at Charroux in La Marche from then until he died, as Orderic tells us.

It is stretching credulity to imagine that he might have made a quick and clandestine trip over to Lancaster in order to subscribe a confirmation of gifts from 1094. This would have been a waste of his efforts anyway since he had been dispossessed in Lancashire since 1102. It might have been useful to the monks there in a dispute afterwards that he had originally made the donations in 1094, but not that he personally confirmed this at some time after being exiled later.

The point that was misrepresented in Version C is that "Count Roger of Poitou", under this false title. had subscribed the document in 1094, whereas it contains other people's gifts that were evidently not made by that time. Confirmations were dated when they were transacted, and often did not even mention the date of the original much less giving this alone. A "genuine" confirmation decades after the fact would not represent itself as taking place at the time of the original business.

Roger was probably still alive towards the end of 1123, when the names of deceased members of his family were inscribed on a mortuary roll that circulated from April 1123 to the summer of 1124. After this omission there is no trace of him in France, and certainly none in England.

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: Fw: Roger le Poitevin

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 15 des 2005 06:37:02

Dear Leo
Thanks for the precis - I was beginning to lose track of all the threads.
Merilyn

-------Original Message-------

From: Leo van de Pas
Date: 12/15/05 13:45:56
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Fw: Roger le Poitevin

The discussion is now on another deadend. Version C of Roger's charter for
St Mary's Lancaster cannot be a "genuine" confirmation. Kathleen Thompson
gave reasons for placing this document between 1130 and 1150. Whenever it
was concocted, Roger the Poitevin was not available to subscribe charters in
England after 1102. He was in exile at Charroux in La Marche from then until
he died, as Orderic tells us.

It is stretching credulity to imagine that he might have made a quick and
clandestine trip over to Lancaster in order to subscribe a confirmation of
gifts from 1094. This would have been a waste of his efforts anyway since he
had been dispossessed in Lancashire since 1102. It might have been useful to
the monks there in a dispute afterwards that he had originally made the
donations in 1094, but not that he personally confirmed this at some time
after being exiled later.

The point that was misrepresented in Version C is that "Count Roger of
Poitou", under this false title. had subscribed the document in 1094,
whereas it contains other people's gifts that were evidently not made by
that time. Confirmations were dated when they were transacted, and often did
not even mention the date of the original much less giving this alone. A
genuine" confirmation decades after the fact would not represent itself as
taking place at the time of the original business.

Roger was probably still alive towards the end of 1123, when the names of
deceased members of his family were inscribed on a mortuary roll that
circulated from April 1123 to the summer of 1124. After this omission there
is no trace of him in France, and certainly none in England.

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Fw: Roger le Poitevin

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 15 des 2005 08:32:47

Leo van de Pas wrote:

The point that was misrepresented in Version C is that "Count Roger of Poitou", under this false title. had subscribed the document in 1094,


This may be misunderstood so let me clarify. The original called him
Roger "comes cognomen Pictaviensis" - Count Roger, called 'the
Poitevin'. Version C calls him Roger "comes Pictaviensis". While this
was translated as Count of Poitou in a later royal confirmation, and
likewise by Round, but it could also (and I think should) be translated
as Count Roger 'the Poitevin'. In other words, it is not false title,
but faulty translation of version C that is the problem (with regard to
the title).

taf

butlergrt

Re: Fw: Roger le Poitevin;maybe not

Legg inn av butlergrt » 15 des 2005 14:13:20

Good Morning Leo,
Just because somebody writes something do not think that is the end of it,
I will have to find my sources again as I usually don't give them a 2nd
thought as I had presumed most people know the things already that I am
just learning but while he was in exile as you say, quite true, he was to
have returned to England in 1109 and remained there the rest of his life
and died c. 1144.
The source was the British History archives I believe, but will have to
loook it up. I believe there are primary sources that go with it.
Emmett

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