Richardson who wrote 'As best I can tell from below, in Latin the title is "comes Pictavensis," in French it is "comes de Poitiers," and in English it is Count of Poitou' is misinformed.
The title "count of Poitou" occurs in various Latin forms, for instance "comes Pictavensis" (the most common), "comes Pictavensium", "comes Pictavorum", etc. "Count of (or "in") Poitiers" would be an alternative translation, especially for forms such as "comes Pictava civitate".
In French the title is "comte de Poitou". "Comes" is not a French word.
Bynames like "the Poitevin" were not uncommon. There was a Guy of Gizeux, contemporary with Roger of Montgomery, who was known as "Guy the Poitevin", usually in Latin "Wido Pictavensis". See the charters of Saint Aubin abbey in Anjou on pages 174-175 of the digitized collection http://chaucer.library.emory.edu/charte ... /index.htm
"Of Poitou" is a literal translation of "Pictavensis" but not the only possible way to render the meaning. "Poitevin" is better for Roger and Guy who were connected to the place but not "of" it in the sense of ruling lords.
Fw: Poitou cannot be the same as Poitiers
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
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Douglas Richardson
Re: Fw: Poitou cannot be the same as Poitiers
Dear Leo ~
Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.
I notice that the great website, "Titles of European Rulers"
(http://www.geocities.com/eurprin/poitou.html) indicates that the title
of Alphonse of France (died 1271) was "Comte de Poitiers et Toulouse,"
with the addition in one instance of "Marquis de Provence." The Latin
form of his Poitevin title was "comes Pictavensis."
The website cites the following sources, both of which I presume quote
original contemporary records:
Auguste Molinier. Correspondance Administrative d'Alphonse de Poitiers,
vol. 1, pg. 53; Doc.# 83.
Bibliothèque de l'École des Chartes, 1 (1839): 394.
I believe both of these sources are available on the gallica website.
If so, have you examined these sources? Do they refer to Alphonse as
"Comte de Poitiers," or as "Comte de Poitou" as you have him in your
records?
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.
I notice that the great website, "Titles of European Rulers"
(http://www.geocities.com/eurprin/poitou.html) indicates that the title
of Alphonse of France (died 1271) was "Comte de Poitiers et Toulouse,"
with the addition in one instance of "Marquis de Provence." The Latin
form of his Poitevin title was "comes Pictavensis."
The website cites the following sources, both of which I presume quote
original contemporary records:
Auguste Molinier. Correspondance Administrative d'Alphonse de Poitiers,
vol. 1, pg. 53; Doc.# 83.
Bibliothèque de l'École des Chartes, 1 (1839): 394.
I believe both of these sources are available on the gallica website.
If so, have you examined these sources? Do they refer to Alphonse as
"Comte de Poitiers," or as "Comte de Poitou" as you have him in your
records?
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: Fw: Poitou cannot be the same as Poitiers
I believe that often too many cooks spoil the broth. I prefer to stick to
some printed sources above websites that can change any day.
..
ES (Detlev Schwennicke) to which you have access Volume II Tafel 12 gives
Alphonse as Comte de Poitou et d'Auvergne, Comte de Toulouse. His wife being
'Erbtochter' of Toulouse.
ES (edited by Frank Freytag von Loringhoven) Volume II Tafel 15
Alfons, Graf von Poitou, Graf von Toulouse
Thierry Le Hete, in his ' La Dynastie Capetienne' sadly allows very little
space and calls him only Comte de Toulouse.
Do not send me to check what apparently you yourself can do.
The main thing you seem to overlook is that Poitou is a county and Poitiers
a city. Both deserve their individual identification and you cannot have one
in French and the other in English and pretend it is the same.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 2:14 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: Poitou cannot be the same as Poitiers
some printed sources above websites that can change any day.
..
ES (Detlev Schwennicke) to which you have access Volume II Tafel 12 gives
Alphonse as Comte de Poitou et d'Auvergne, Comte de Toulouse. His wife being
'Erbtochter' of Toulouse.
ES (edited by Frank Freytag von Loringhoven) Volume II Tafel 15
Alfons, Graf von Poitou, Graf von Toulouse
Thierry Le Hete, in his ' La Dynastie Capetienne' sadly allows very little
space and calls him only Comte de Toulouse.
Do not send me to check what apparently you yourself can do.
The main thing you seem to overlook is that Poitou is a county and Poitiers
a city. Both deserve their individual identification and you cannot have one
in French and the other in English and pretend it is the same.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 2:14 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: Poitou cannot be the same as Poitiers
Dear Leo ~
Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.
I notice that the great website, "Titles of European Rulers"
(http://www.geocities.com/eurprin/poitou.html) indicates that the title
of Alphonse of France (died 1271) was "Comte de Poitiers et Toulouse,"
with the addition in one instance of "Marquis de Provence." The Latin
form of his Poitevin title was "comes Pictavensis."
The website cites the following sources, both of which I presume quote
original contemporary records:
Auguste Molinier. Correspondance Administrative d'Alphonse de Poitiers,
vol. 1, pg. 53; Doc.# 83.
Bibliothèque de l'École des Chartes, 1 (1839): 394.
I believe both of these sources are available on the gallica website.
If so, have you examined these sources? Do they refer to Alphonse as
"Comte de Poitiers," or as "Comte de Poitou" as you have him in your
records?
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Fw: Poitou cannot be the same as Poitiers
Here you go, Leo.
Just click on the links.
http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/Visualiseur?D ... NUMM-29284
http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/Visualiseur?D ... NUMM-12374
His correct titles are Alphonse, Comte de Poitiers et Toulouse, Marquis
de Provence.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Just click on the links.
http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/Visualiseur?D ... NUMM-29284
http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/Visualiseur?D ... NUMM-12374
His correct titles are Alphonse, Comte de Poitiers et Toulouse, Marquis
de Provence.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Fw: Poitou cannot be the same as Poitiers
Here is another reference to Alphonse of France as "comte de Poitiers."
http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/CadresFenetre ... on&Y=Image
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Douglas Richardson wrote:
http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/CadresFenetre ... on&Y=Image
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Here you go, Leo.
Just click on the links.
http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/Visualiseur?D ... NUMM-29284
http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/Visualiseur?D ... NUMM-12374
His correct titles are Alphonse, Comte de Poitiers et Toulouse, Marquis
de Provence.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net