Philippa Harcourt, wife of John Delves

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Kelsey Williams

Philippa Harcourt, wife of John Delves

Legg inn av Kelsey Williams » 10 des 2005 17:33:05

Hello,

In Wedgwood's _History of Parliament, 1439-1509_ (1:267), Sir John
Delves of Doddington, Cheshire (1418-1471) is stated to be the son of
John Delves of Doddington (d. 1429), by his wife Philippa Harcourt. Is
anyone aware of Philippa's parentage (I don't have access to Ormerod &
so don't know whether his Delves pedigree would shed any light on
this)? It would seem quite possible to me that she might be a daughter
of Sir Thomas Harcourt of Stanton Harcourt but the pedigree of that
family in _Plantagenet Ancestry_ (376-377) provides no indication of
any use of the name Philippa.

Cheers,
Kelsey

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Philippa Harcourt, wife of John Delves

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 10 des 2005 21:20:54

In message of 10 Dec, "Kelsey Williams" <zetetes_sofias@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hello,

In Wedgwood's _History of Parliament, 1439-1509_ (1:267), Sir John
Delves of Doddington, Cheshire (1418-1471) is stated to be the son of
John Delves of Doddington (d. 1429), by his wife Philippa Harcourt. Is
anyone aware of Philippa's parentage (I don't have access to Ormerod &
so don't know whether his Delves pedigree would shed any light on
this)? It would seem quite possible to me that she might be a daughter
of Sir Thomas Harcourt of Stanton Harcourt but the pedigree of that
family in _Plantagenet Ancestry_ (376-377) provides no indication of
any use of the name Philippa.

According to the pedigree on p. 522 of Vol 3 of Ormerod, the Sir John
Delves who d, 7 Hen 6 (1429) m.

"Philippa, daughter of ...... Mainwaring, of Norwood, 20 Ric 2, buried
at Wilmabury, 1420 (daughter of ... Harcourt of Ellenhall and mother of
Thos., Margery, Eliz., Margaret and Joan Collins [I didn't know she was
that old!].)"

His second son, another Sir John Delves m.

"Elen, daughter to Ralph Eggerton of Wrinehill (married by
dispensation, [3d of May] 1429) [Lich. D. Reg.]"

The text on p, 520 covers these generations but does not add anything
to the above, nor does it make it any clearer.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Kelsey Williams

Re: Philippa Harcourt, wife of John Delves

Legg inn av Kelsey Williams » 11 des 2005 16:50:43

Hello,

Thanks very much for the quotation, confusing though it is. I suppose
Ormerod must have been in doubt as to Philippa's parentage. I think
the "Mainwaring of Norwood" option probably derives from the 1580
Visitation of Cheshire which states (p. 77) that John Delves married "
.. . . . d. to . . . . Manwaring [sic] of Norwood." The pedigree it
gives doesn't inspire much confidence, though, as it marries Sir John
(1418-1471) to " . . . . . d. of . . . . . Creston of Bradley in Com.
Darbyshire" rather than to his known wife, Ellen Egerton.

If Ormerod is correct in assigning the children listed in the quote to
Philippa, then it would seem that on onomastic evidence the Harcourt
connection is slightly stronger:

John -- named for his father
Thomas -- named for his possible maternal grandfather, Sir Thomas
Harcourt
Margery -- ? (the name of Randle Mainwaring of Over Peover's wife)
Elizabeth -- ? (the name of Randle's mother)
Margaret -- named for her paternal grandmother, Margaret (Calveley)
Delves
Joan -- named perhaps for her possible great-grandmother, Joan (de
Grey) Harcourt, or her possible aunt, Jane (Fraunceys) Harcourt

The argument is weak, but given that only two sons were born to this
family it would make sense that their names should come from the
father's & the mother's parents, respectively. If Philippa were a
Mainwaring one would expect a characteristic Mainwaring name like
Randle, William, Hugh or Roger, rather than Thomas.

Does Ormerod cite his sources for any of this information?

Cheers,
Kelsey

Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
In message of 10 Dec, "Kelsey Williams" <zetetes_sofias@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hello,

In Wedgwood's _History of Parliament, 1439-1509_ (1:267), Sir John
Delves of Doddington, Cheshire (1418-1471) is stated to be the son of
John Delves of Doddington (d. 1429), by his wife Philippa Harcourt. Is
anyone aware of Philippa's parentage (I don't have access to Ormerod &
so don't know whether his Delves pedigree would shed any light on
this)? It would seem quite possible to me that she might be a daughter
of Sir Thomas Harcourt of Stanton Harcourt but the pedigree of that
family in _Plantagenet Ancestry_ (376-377) provides no indication of
any use of the name Philippa.

According to the pedigree on p. 522 of Vol 3 of Ormerod, the Sir John
Delves who d, 7 Hen 6 (1429) m.

"Philippa, daughter of ...... Mainwaring, of Norwood, 20 Ric 2, buried
at Wilmabury, 1420 (daughter of ... Harcourt of Ellenhall and mother of
Thos., Margery, Eliz., Margaret and Joan Collins [I didn't know she was
that old!].)"

His second son, another Sir John Delves m.

"Elen, daughter to Ralph Eggerton of Wrinehill (married by
dispensation, [3d of May] 1429) [Lich. D. Reg.]"

The text on p, 520 covers these generations but does not add anything
to the above, nor does it make it any clearer.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Philippa Harcourt, wife of John Delves

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 11 des 2005 17:17:47

In message of 11 Dec, "Kelsey Williams" <zetetes_sofias@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hello,

Thanks very much for the quotation, confusing though it is. I suppose
Ormerod must have been in doubt as to Philippa's parentage. I think
the "Mainwaring of Norwood" option probably derives from the 1580
Visitation of Cheshire which states (p. 77) that John Delves married "
. . . . d. to . . . . Manwaring [sic] of Norwood." The pedigree it
gives doesn't inspire much confidence, though, as it marries Sir John
(1418-1471) to " . . . . . d. of . . . . . Creston of Bradley in Com.
Darbyshire" rather than to his known wife, Ellen Egerton.

If Ormerod is correct in assigning the children listed in the quote to
Philippa, then it would seem that on onomastic evidence the Harcourt
connection is slightly stronger:

John -- named for his father
Thomas -- named for his possible maternal grandfather, Sir Thomas
Harcourt
Margery -- ? (the name of Randle Mainwaring of Over Peover's wife)
Elizabeth -- ? (the name of Randle's mother)
Margaret -- named for her paternal grandmother, Margaret (Calveley)
Delves
Joan -- named perhaps for her possible great-grandmother, Joan (de
Grey) Harcourt, or her possible aunt, Jane (Fraunceys) Harcourt

The argument is weak, but given that only two sons were born to this
family it would make sense that their names should come from the
father's & the mother's parents, respectively. If Philippa were a
Mainwaring one would expect a characteristic Mainwaring name like
Randle, William, Hugh or Roger, rather than Thomas.

Does Ormerod cite his sources for any of this information?


Scan sent off list.


--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

John Higgins

Re: Philippa Harcourt, wife of John Delves

Legg inn av John Higgins » 11 des 2005 21:09:02

Ormerod appears to cite "Collins" as the source for his identification of
Philippa as a Harcourt of Ellenhall. Presumably this is Collins' Peerage
(rather than THE Joan Collins, since there's a period betwen Joan and
Collins in Ormerod!!). And he also cites Collins a number of times for
other elements of the Delves pedigree.

The sketchy information I've seen on the family of Harcourt of Ellenhall
does not include any reference to this Philippa, however.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kelsey Williams" <zetetes_sofias@yahoo.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2005 7:50 AM
Subject: Re: Philippa Harcourt, wife of John Delves


Hello,

Thanks very much for the quotation, confusing though it is. I suppose
Ormerod must have been in doubt as to Philippa's parentage. I think
the "Mainwaring of Norwood" option probably derives from the 1580
Visitation of Cheshire which states (p. 77) that John Delves married "
. . . . d. to . . . . Manwaring [sic] of Norwood." The pedigree it
gives doesn't inspire much confidence, though, as it marries Sir John
(1418-1471) to " . . . . . d. of . . . . . Creston of Bradley in Com.
Darbyshire" rather than to his known wife, Ellen Egerton.

If Ormerod is correct in assigning the children listed in the quote to
Philippa, then it would seem that on onomastic evidence the Harcourt
connection is slightly stronger:

John -- named for his father
Thomas -- named for his possible maternal grandfather, Sir Thomas
Harcourt
Margery -- ? (the name of Randle Mainwaring of Over Peover's wife)
Elizabeth -- ? (the name of Randle's mother)
Margaret -- named for her paternal grandmother, Margaret (Calveley)
Delves
Joan -- named perhaps for her possible great-grandmother, Joan (de
Grey) Harcourt, or her possible aunt, Jane (Fraunceys) Harcourt

The argument is weak, but given that only two sons were born to this
family it would make sense that their names should come from the
father's & the mother's parents, respectively. If Philippa were a
Mainwaring one would expect a characteristic Mainwaring name like
Randle, William, Hugh or Roger, rather than Thomas.

Does Ormerod cite his sources for any of this information?

Cheers,
Kelsey

Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
In message of 10 Dec, "Kelsey Williams" <zetetes_sofias@yahoo.com
wrote:

Hello,

In Wedgwood's _History of Parliament, 1439-1509_ (1:267), Sir John
Delves of Doddington, Cheshire (1418-1471) is stated to be the son of
John Delves of Doddington (d. 1429), by his wife Philippa Harcourt.
Is
anyone aware of Philippa's parentage (I don't have access to Ormerod &
so don't know whether his Delves pedigree would shed any light on
this)? It would seem quite possible to me that she might be a
daughter
of Sir Thomas Harcourt of Stanton Harcourt but the pedigree of that
family in _Plantagenet Ancestry_ (376-377) provides no indication of
any use of the name Philippa.

According to the pedigree on p. 522 of Vol 3 of Ormerod, the Sir John
Delves who d, 7 Hen 6 (1429) m.

"Philippa, daughter of ...... Mainwaring, of Norwood, 20 Ric 2, buried
at Wilmabury, 1420 (daughter of ... Harcourt of Ellenhall and mother
of
Thos., Margery, Eliz., Margaret and Joan Collins [I didn't know she
was
that old!].)"

His second son, another Sir John Delves m.

"Elen, daughter to Ralph Eggerton of Wrinehill (married by
dispensation, [3d of May] 1429) [Lich. D. Reg.]"

The text on p, 520 covers these generations but does not add anything
to the above, nor does it make it any clearer.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Kelsey Williams

Re: Philippa Harcourt, wife of John Delves

Legg inn av Kelsey Williams » 12 des 2005 01:06:53

Hello,

Many thanks! If she is a Mainwaring, she can't possibly be the
daughter of Randle Mainwaring of Over Peover, as stated on various
unsourced webpages, as that would mean that Margaret Delves, her
daughter, married her own uncle (i.e., Sir John Mainwaring of Over
Peover, Randle's son). On the other hand, Ormerod does say "Mainwaring
of Norwood" rather "Mainwaring of Over Peover" so she could be from
another branch of the family. The fact that her son, Sir John,
required a dispensation to marry Ellen Egerton may be important as
Ellen's mother was a daughter of Randle Mainwaring. I'll try to track
down the dispensation in the Lichfield Diocesan Registry.

Cheers,
Kelsey

Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
In message of 11 Dec, "Kelsey Williams" <zetetes_sofias@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hello,

Thanks very much for the quotation, confusing though it is. I suppose
Ormerod must have been in doubt as to Philippa's parentage. I think
the "Mainwaring of Norwood" option probably derives from the 1580
Visitation of Cheshire which states (p. 77) that John Delves married "
. . . . d. to . . . . Manwaring [sic] of Norwood." The pedigree it
gives doesn't inspire much confidence, though, as it marries Sir John
(1418-1471) to " . . . . . d. of . . . . . Creston of Bradley in Com.
Darbyshire" rather than to his known wife, Ellen Egerton.

If Ormerod is correct in assigning the children listed in the quote to
Philippa, then it would seem that on onomastic evidence the Harcourt
connection is slightly stronger:

John -- named for his father
Thomas -- named for his possible maternal grandfather, Sir Thomas
Harcourt
Margery -- ? (the name of Randle Mainwaring of Over Peover's wife)
Elizabeth -- ? (the name of Randle's mother)
Margaret -- named for her paternal grandmother, Margaret (Calveley)
Delves
Joan -- named perhaps for her possible great-grandmother, Joan (de
Grey) Harcourt, or her possible aunt, Jane (Fraunceys) Harcourt

The argument is weak, but given that only two sons were born to this
family it would make sense that their names should come from the
father's & the mother's parents, respectively. If Philippa were a
Mainwaring one would expect a characteristic Mainwaring name like
Randle, William, Hugh or Roger, rather than Thomas.

Does Ormerod cite his sources for any of this information?


Scan sent off list.


--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

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