Douglas Richardson please read

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Douglas Richardson please read

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 des 2005 14:08:38

Dear Douglas;

I hate to change the subject, but the discussion on Eldred seems to
have followed the following passage.

The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on; nor all your Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.
-- The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam

You may have missed my post FDP...@aol.com Dec 4, 1:38 pm which I
reproduce below.

I am very interested in your opinion on this matter because I believe
it offers a reason for modifying your thoughts on Ketel FitzEldred and
my suggested half sister Goditha. I realize the documentation deficit
and have shown in my posts [ FDP...@aol.com
Nov 26, 4:50 pm and FDP...@aol.com Nov 26, 7:47 pm ] only *secondary
sources* for a first wife of Eldred.

Using your *rule of thumb* of 85 years for three generations, and your
prior suggestion of Gospatric FitzOrm born say 1105 gives us the
following.

Gospatric FitzOrm b. say 1105
Orm FitzKetel b. by extrapolation say 1077
Ketel FitzEldred by extrapolation say 1049
Eldred b. say 1020

This in my mind permits, without documentation, my suggestion that
Ketel and Goditha born of different mothers a generation apart.

Thanking you in advance.

Respectfully,

Dix Preston

In a message Douglas Richardson Dec 3, 8:04 pm Douglas wrote:

<<1. Eldred, born say 1060, died before 1093, married (as her 1st
husband) Beatrice Taillebois, daughter and heiress of Ives Taillebois
(died c. 1093), by an unknown 1st wife.>>

Dear Douglas:

I have collected some *evidence* that suggests Eldred was much before
the 1060 date you suggest. While I realize these are secondary, they
are all that I have gathered.

(1) *According to The Complete Peerage, the Tailboys/Talboys line
descends from Ivo Taillebois through his daughter Beatrice, who married
firstly Eldred, and secondly, Ribald. From the former union sprang the
line of William of Lancaster, and from the latter union came Ralph
Taillebois (son of Ribald and Beatrice) who married Agnes de Brus,
progenitor of the Tailboys/Talboys line. This author [unidentified at
the site] has yet to uncover the intervening generations between this
Ralph and William, shown above. Sources: CP: [Complete peerage] Vol
VII[358]; AR: [Ancestral Roots by Weis] Line 74A[35], Line 224[33-34],
Line 224A[34-37]; SGM [message archives]: Rosie Bevan.* Source: author
unidentified at site: http://www.geneajourney.com/talboys.html .

(2) *While William waited at Barking, other English lords in addition
to those who had already acknowledged him came in and made submission.
The Norman authorities say that the earls Edwin and Morcar were the
chief of these, and if not earlier, they must have submitted then. Two
men, SIWARD AND ELDRED [emphasis added], are said to have been
relatives of the last Saxon king, but in what way we do not know.*

*Copsi, who had ruled Northumberland for a time under Tostig, the
brother of Harold, impressed the Norman writers with his importance,
and a Thurkill is also mentioned by name, while "many other nobles" are
classed together without special mention. Another great name which
should probably be added to this list is that of Waltheof, Earl of
Northampton and Huntingdon [FDP Note: son of Siward], of distinguished
descent and destined later to an unhappy fate. All of these the king
received most kindly. He accepted their oaths, restored to them all
their possessions, and held them in great honour.* Source:
http://www.knowledgerush.com/pg/etext05/7heng10.txt; The Project
Gutenberg EBook of "The History of England From the Norman Conquest
to the Death of John (1066-1216)," by George Burton Adams, Part 1.

(3) We know the Eldred above is not *Eldred of Northumbria, Death: ca
1038, murdered by Carl Thurbrandsson; Earl of Northumbria 1019-1038.
Source: Siward 'the Dane' of Northumbria; Death: 1055; Marr: ca 1041
G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 - The Complete Peerage of
England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.*

(4) We know Siward who apparently submitted with Eldred was active in:
*A.D. 1054....This year went Earl Siward with a large army against
Scotland, consisting both of marines and land forces; and engaging with
the Scots, he put to flight the King Macbeth; slew all the best in the
land; and led thence much spoil, such as no man before obtained. Many
fell also on his side, both Danish and English; even his own son,
Osborn, and his sister's son, Sihward: and many of his house-carls, and
also of the king's, were there slain that day, which was that of the
Seven Sleepers.' Source: [ASC 139] "The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle,"
translated by The Rev. James Ingram, London: J. M. Dent & Sons Ltd.,
1934 (reprint of first edition, 1912), Everyman's Library, No. 624.*

(5) Siward is further dated * Siward Digera [*the Strong*] [= Old
Danish Sigwarth], earl of Deira and Northumbria [earl of Deira 1032 x
1033-1042, earl of Northumbria 1042-1055; d. 1055] Sources: [PASE,
cites The Dictionary of National Biography, 59:265-7 [ 20:722-4 ]; The
Blackwell Encyclopedia of Anglo-Saxon England. Ed. Michael Lapidge,
John Blair, Simon Keynes and Donald Scragg (Oxford: Blackwell
Publishers, 1999), p. 466. "Prosopography of Anglo-Saxon England,"
University of Cambridge, Department of Anglo-Saxon, Norse, and Celtic,*
http://www.asnc.cam.ac.uk/pase/Level1/L ... el3/E.html courtesy
University of Cambridge PASE project, http://www.asnc.cam.ac.uk/

If this Eldred with Siward is the one we are pursuing, the following
source introduces a possible attachment to Eldred/Aldred/Ealdred
[Eldred of Northumbria, Death: ca 1038] son of Uchtred. His children
are identified in most literature, but excludes an Eldred. Eldred,
possible illegitimate son, half brother to Siward's wife daughter of
Eldred/Aldred/Ealdred which may be why they appeared together
submitting to William I.

(6) *Eldred' s Shropshire Land Holdings in Domesday 1086: Ealdred or
Eldred, a Saxon thane, and under-tenant of Earl Roger in Shropshire. He
was probably descended from the Ealdred of Bamborough, Saxon high
reeve, who governed between the Tyne and Forth, pre Conquest.* From:
Shropshire and the Domesday Book
:http://www.infokey.com/Domesday/Shropshire.htm

<<On the issue of the birth date of William de Lancaster I, I see that
Keats-Rohan states that he first occurs in the records c. 1120. Can
anyone supply the documentation for that date?>>

In my original message FDP...@aol.com Nov 26, 4:50 pm I used a Ref 8
which is all I have which I got from the archives.

<<Ref 8: *If the confirmation mentioned below occurred in about 1120/30
then William (I) [(4) 1] was born well before 1115. He would have been
old enough to have had a son who could witness his confirmation and
himself to have been of age. This would push back William (I)'s birth
to about 1090. Both William (I) and William (II) would have been quite
old when they died...I don't think William (II) [(5) 1] was the son of
Gundreda de Warren. Her first husband died 1153 [CP XII/2:362]. William
evidently witnessed his father's confirmation (about 1120/30) to the
Hospital of St Peter, York {Moriarty in Washington's paper (already
cited) and he refers to the printing of the charters to St Peter's in F
W Ragg "Charters of St Peter's Hospital, York" in CW2 ix 237-239. I
take it this refers to "Transactions of the Cumberland and Westmorland
Antiquarian & Archaeological Society" (? second series) vol. IX].*
Source: Richard Borthwick; Subject: Re: Ivo and Lucy Talybois;
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval; Date: 1998/10/02

WJhon...@aol.com Nov 26, 6:34 pm writes:

<< 3. William I de Lancaster approx b. 1105, but probable b. bef 1100
[ref 8] d. 1170 [Farrer, Records of Kendale, vol I p.xii] [ref 8]
[Keats-Rohan, p. 539] m. unknown
4. William II de Lancaster b. bef 1120 d. 1184 [Farrer, Records of
Kendale, vol I p.xiii] [ref 8] m. Hawise de Stuteville [Keats-Rohan, p.
539] >>

<<*This* is quite radical and requires intense scrutiny. It would
throw quite a bit into confusion if this were true. Can you post the
complete quotation with underlying sources. Your ref merely *alludes*
to the text without quoting it. Thanks Will Johnson>>

WJhon...@aol.com Nov 28, 6:36 pm

<< ?William (II) [de Lancaster] witnessed his father's 1120/30
confirmation of Chetell's gifts to St Peter's Hospital, York >>

<<I question this identification. Although there is a person named
WILLIAM IN THIS CONFIRMATION [emphasis added], there is not indication,
to my mind, that this person was William of Lancaster, Lord of Kendall
who d 1170. Thanks Will Johnson>>

I have repeatedly asked Will to post this record, but since he hasn't
to date I assume he doesn't have it.

<<If Ketel Fitz Eldred was born say 1085, he obviously would not be the
father of Orm Fitz Ketel, whose only known wife, Gravelda, was born in
or before 1075.>>

I can only suggest that my scenario has Ketel FitzEldred say 1045-1050.
If true then your conclusion here, may need revision and I note you
previously said <<tentative dates on the family of Eldred based on
Keats-Rohan's arrangement of this family:>>

Some internet material is worthless and some good, particularly from
this Newsgroup. I have already explained I don't read Latin, I am
remote from any good library, and am confined to this magic little box.
Therefore, by posting that material I have amassed during my Preston
research I am looking to those with superior knowledge and intellect
for true answers. This Newsgroup is providing that scholarship I lack,
but the participants never seems to arrive at final conclusions after
much discussion. These threads have helped me considerably and I hope
the elusive Eldred will materialize in the records found in this
Newsgroup.

Respectfully,

Dix Preston

Douglas Richardson

Re: Douglas Richardson please read

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 10 des 2005 21:50:29

Dear Dix ~

Regarding the pedigree you have set forth for Gospatric Fitz Orm, we
are certain only that his father was named Orm Fitz Ketel and that his
grandfather was named Ketel.

Orm Fitz Ketel's wife, Gravelda of Dunbar, was born in or before 1075 -
a birthdate of 1070 would certainly be reasonable for her. If so, we
would expect that Orm was born in or before 1070. I might point out
that Orm's approximate birthdate would almost certainly fall in the
late 1060's or c. 1070, as the chronology of his descendants matches
those of his Dunbar inlaws who were born in that time period. The
suggestions we have seen here on this newsgroup that Orm Fitz Ketel was
born as late as 1080 is just plain wrong.

We know very little about Orm Fitz Ketel's actual life. He appears as
a witness to a charter dated sometime after 1094, but before 1102. He
was probably a tenant under Count Roger of Poitou, in Lancashire.
I'll have more to say about this charter in a later post.

If so, then I think it would be likely that his father is the Ketel who
owned several manors in 1066 in Lancashire and Yorkshire. This Ketel's
lands were in the hands of other parties in later generations, which
suggests to me that either he or his likely son, Orm, were dispossed of
these lands either by forfeiture or rebellion. It is possible that Orm
Fitz Ketel lost his father's lands and was banished in 1102, along with
his overlord, Count Roger of Poitou.

A good deal of the above is conjecture, as the records before 1150 are
not very good. However, to prove the connection between Orm Fitz
Ketel, living 1094/1102, and the Ketel living in 1066, I think we have
only to prove that the overlordship of Ketel's lands in 1066 was held
in the 1080's-1102 by Count Roger of Poitou. Then we should know if
the conjecture holds any weight. I suspect this can be established.
We know the approximate area over which Count Roger was overlord. We
need only to show that Ketel's lands in 1066 fall within that area.

I find no evidence to suggest that Orm Fitz Ketel, born say 1070, was
the son of Ketel Fitz Eldred, who occurs in Cumberland in the 1120's.
As best I can determine, Ketel Fitz Eldred was slightly younger than
Orm Fitz Ketel. This would have to be true, by the way, if Ketel Fitz
Eldred was the grandson of Ives Taillebois, as stated in Keats-Rohan's
Domesday Descendants. I believe that Ives Taillebois was born say
1040. If so, then the earliest his grandson, Ketel Fitz Eldred, could
be born would be 1075.

I think the evidence is iffy that Gospatric Fitz Orm was closely
related to Ketel Fitz Eldred. Following Ketel Fitz Eldred's death, his
nephew and heir, William de Lancaster I, exchanged two manors for
another one held by Gospatric Fitz Orm, son of Orm Fitz Ketel. One of
the properties exchanged by William de Lancaster I appears to have been
held earlier by Ketel Fitz Eldred. My good friend and colleague,
Andrew MacEwen, of Maine is of the opinion that this charter was a
simple exchange, and does not represent a settlement of inheritance.
Andrew is probably correct. He's had considerable experience with
charters in this time period.

The short end of it: More research needs to be done before anything
really concrete can be said about the pedigrees prior to Orm Fitz Ketel
or to Ketel Fitz Eldred. What can be said at present is that almost
everything in print about these people contains major statements of
error and pays little or no attention to the actual chronology. I find
Wilson's comments in Register of St. Bees are especially untrustworthy.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

- Hide quoted text -

FDP527@aol.com wrote:
Dear Douglas;

I hate to change the subject, but the discussion on Eldred seems to
have followed the following passage.

The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on; nor all your Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.
-- The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam

You may have missed my post FDP...@aol.com Dec 4, 1:38 pm which I
reproduce below.

I am very interested in your opinion on this matter because I believe
it offers a reason for modifying your thoughts on Ketel FitzEldred and
my suggested half sister Goditha. I realize the documentation deficit
and have shown in my posts [ FDP...@aol.com
Nov 26, 4:50 pm and FDP...@aol.com Nov 26, 7:47 pm ] only *secondary
sources* for a first wife of Eldred.

Using your *rule of thumb* of 85 years for three generations, and your
prior suggestion of Gospatric FitzOrm born say 1105 gives us the
following.

Gospatric FitzOrm b. say 1105
Orm FitzKetel b. by extrapolation say 1077
Ketel FitzEldred by extrapolation say 1049
Eldred b. say 1020

This in my mind permits, without documentation, my suggestion that
Ketel and Goditha born of different mothers a generation apart.

Thanking you in advance.

Respectfully,

Dix Preston

In a message Douglas Richardson Dec 3, 8:04 pm Douglas wrote:

1. Eldred, born say 1060, died before 1093, married (as her 1st
husband) Beatrice Taillebois, daughter and heiress of Ives Taillebois
(died c. 1093), by an unknown 1st wife.

Dear Douglas:

I have collected some *evidence* that suggests Eldred was much before
the 1060 date you suggest. While I realize these are secondary, they
are all that I have gathered.

(1) *According to The Complete Peerage, the Tailboys/Talboys line
descends from Ivo Taillebois through his daughter Beatrice, who married
firstly Eldred, and secondly, Ribald. From the former union sprang the
line of William of Lancaster, and from the latter union came Ralph
Taillebois (son of Ribald and Beatrice) who married Agnes de Brus,
progenitor of the Tailboys/Talboys line. This author [unidentified at
the site] has yet to uncover the intervening generations between this
Ralph and William, shown above. Sources: CP: [Complete peerage] Vol
VII[358]; AR: [Ancestral Roots by Weis] Line 74A[35], Line 224[33-34],
Line 224A[34-37]; SGM [message archives]: Rosie Bevan.* Source: author
unidentified at site: http://www.geneajourney.com/talboys.html .

(2) *While William waited at Barking, other English lords in addition
to those who had already acknowledged him came in and made submission.
The Norman authorities say that the earls Edwin and Morcar were the
chief of these, and if not earlier, they must have submitted then. Two
men, SIWARD AND ELDRED [emphasis added], are said to have been
relatives of the last Saxon king, but in what way we do not know.*

*Copsi, who had ruled Northumberland for a time under Tostig, the
brother of Harold, impressed the Norman writers with his importance,
and a Thurkill is also mentioned by name, while "many other nobles" are
classed together without special mention. Another great name which
should probably be added to this list is that of Waltheof, Earl of
Northampton and Huntingdon [FDP Note: son of Siward], of distinguished
descent and destined later to an unhappy fate. All of these the king
received most kindly. He accepted their oaths, restored to them all
their possessions, and held them in great honour.* Source:
http://www.knowledgerush.com/pg/etext05/7heng10.txt; The Project
Gutenberg EBook of "The History of England From the Norman Conquest
to the Death of John (1066-1216)," by George Burton Adams, Part 1.

(3) We know the Eldred above is not *Eldred of Northumbria, Death: ca
1038, murdered by Carl Thurbrandsson; Earl of Northumbria 1019-1038.
Source: Siward 'the Dane' of Northumbria; Death: 1055; Marr: ca 1041
G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 - The Complete Peerage of
England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.*

(4) We know Siward who apparently submitted with Eldred was active in:
*A.D. 1054....This year went Earl Siward with a large army against
Scotland, consisting both of marines and land forces; and engaging with
the Scots, he put to flight the King Macbeth; slew all the best in the
land; and led thence much spoil, such as no man before obtained. Many
fell also on his side, both Danish and English; even his own son,
Osborn, and his sister's son, Sihward: and many of his house-carls, and
also of the king's, were there slain that day, which was that of the
Seven Sleepers.' Source: [ASC 139] "The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle,"
translated by The Rev. James Ingram, London: J. M. Dent & Sons Ltd.,
1934 (reprint of first edition, 1912), Everyman's Library, No. 624.*

(5) Siward is further dated * Siward Digera [*the Strong*] [= Old
Danish Sigwarth], earl of Deira and Northumbria [earl of Deira 1032 x
1033-1042, earl of Northumbria 1042-1055; d. 1055] Sources: [PASE,
cites The Dictionary of National Biography, 59:265-7 [ 20:722-4 ]; The
Blackwell Encyclopedia of Anglo-Saxon England. Ed. Michael Lapidge,
John Blair, Simon Keynes and Donald Scragg (Oxford: Blackwell
Publishers, 1999), p. 466. "Prosopography of Anglo-Saxon England,"
University of Cambridge, Department of Anglo-Saxon, Norse, and Celtic,*
http://www.asnc.cam.ac.uk/pase/Level1/L ... el3/E.html courtesy
University of Cambridge PASE project, http://www.asnc.cam.ac.uk/

If this Eldred with Siward is the one we are pursuing, the following
source introduces a possible attachment to Eldred/Aldred/Ealdred
[Eldred of Northumbria, Death: ca 1038] son of Uchtred. His children
are identified in most literature, but excludes an Eldred. Eldred,
possible illegitimate son, half brother to Siward's wife daughter of
Eldred/Aldred/Ealdred which may be why they appeared together
submitting to William I.

(6) *Eldred' s Shropshire Land Holdings in Domesday 1086: Ealdred or
Eldred, a Saxon thane, and under-tenant of Earl Roger in Shropshire. He
was probably descended from the Ealdred of Bamborough, Saxon high
reeve, who governed between the Tyne and Forth, pre Conquest.* From:
Shropshire and the Domesday Book
:http://www.infokey.com/Domesday/Shropshire.htm

On the issue of the birth date of William de Lancaster I, I see that
Keats-Rohan states that he first occurs in the records c. 1120. Can
anyone supply the documentation for that date?

In my original message FDP...@aol.com Nov 26, 4:50 pm I used a Ref 8
which is all I have which I got from the archives.

Ref 8: *If the confirmation mentioned below occurred in about 1120/30
then William (I) [(4) 1] was born well before 1115. He would have been
old enough to have had a son who could witness his confirmation and
himself to have been of age. This would push back William (I)'s birth
to about 1090. Both William (I) and William (II) would have been quite
old when they died...I don't think William (II) [(5) 1] was the son of
Gundreda de Warren. Her first husband died 1153 [CP XII/2:362]. William
evidently witnessed his father's confirmation (about 1120/30) to the
Hospital of St Peter, York {Moriarty in Washington's paper (already
cited) and he refers to the printing of the charters to St Peter's in F
W Ragg "Charters of St Peter's Hospital, York" in CW2 ix 237-239. I
take it this refers to "Transactions of the Cumberland and Westmorland
Antiquarian & Archaeological Society" (? second series) vol. IX].*
Source: Richard Borthwick; Subject: Re: Ivo and Lucy Talybois;
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval; Date: 1998/10/02

WJhon...@aol.com Nov 26, 6:34 pm writes:

3. William I de Lancaster approx b. 1105, but probable b. bef 1100
[ref 8] d. 1170 [Farrer, Records of Kendale, vol I p.xii] [ref 8]
[Keats-Rohan, p. 539] m. unknown
4. William II de Lancaster b. bef 1120 d. 1184 [Farrer, Records of
Kendale, vol I p.xiii] [ref 8] m. Hawise de Stuteville [Keats-Rohan, p.
539]

*This* is quite radical and requires intense scrutiny. It would
throw quite a bit into confusion if this were true. Can you post the
complete quotation with underlying sources. Your ref merely *alludes*
to the text without quoting it. Thanks Will Johnson

WJhon...@aol.com Nov 28, 6:36 pm

?William (II) [de Lancaster] witnessed his father's 1120/30
confirmation of Chetell's gifts to St Peter's Hospital, York

I question this identification. Although there is a person named
WILLIAM IN THIS CONFIRMATION [emphasis added], there is not indication,
to my mind, that this person was William of Lancaster, Lord of Kendall
who d 1170. Thanks Will Johnson

I have repeatedly asked Will to post this record, but since he hasn't
to date I assume he doesn't have it.

If Ketel Fitz Eldred was born say 1085, he obviously would not be the
father of Orm Fitz Ketel, whose only known wife, Gravelda, was born in
or before 1075.

I can only suggest that my scenario has Ketel FitzEldred say 1045-1050.
If true then your conclusion here, may need revision and I note you
previously said <<tentative dates on the family of Eldred based on
Keats-Rohan's arrangement of this family:

Some internet material is worthless and some good, particularly from
this Newsgroup. I have already explained I don't read Latin, I am
remote from any good library, and am confined to this magic little box.
Therefore, by posting that material I have amassed during my Preston
research I am looking to those with superior knowledge and intellect
for true answers. This Newsgroup is providing that scholarship I lack,
but the participants never seems to arrive at final conclusions after
much discussion. These threads have helped me considerably and I hope
the elusive Eldred will materialize in the records found in this
Newsgroup.

Respectfully,

Dix Preston

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