Parentage of Beatrice, wife of Ribald of Brittany
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Douglas Richardson
Parentage of Beatrice, wife of Ribald of Brittany
Dear Newsgroup ~
Below please find Mr. Clay's comments regarding the parentage of
Beatrice Taillebois, wife of Ribald (died before 1130), brother of Alan
I, Count of Brittany, which comments appeared in his book, Early
Yorkshire Charters:
"Ribald's wife Beatrice, who presumably died ante 1112, was a daughter
of Ives Taillebois, sheriff of Lincolnshire in or before 1086, but not
by his wife the countess Lucy, whose first husband he was. The
evidence for this is a charter issued by Ives to St. Mary's, York, in
the time of abbot Stephen, giving half his lordship of Kirkby Stephen
[Westmorland] and half the church, and other lands and churches in
Westmorland, and the church of Clapham [Yorkshire], which was witnessed
by Lucy his wife, Ribald his son-in-law, Ralph Taillebois and others.
Ribald's eldest son is sometimes called Ralph Taillebois [using his
mother's name]. As Farrer points out, it is somewhat curious that no
part of the land in Westmorland and Yorkshire which Ives held in his
own right, and not in right of his wife Lucy, descended to the sons of
Ribald; from which circumstance it might be supposed that Ribald had no
issue by Beatrice, were it not for the fact that his son is styled
Ralph Taillebois. A possible explanation is that Beatrice was
illegitimate." [Reference: Charles T. Clay, Early Yorkshire Charters,
5 (1936): 299].
Dr. Keats-Rohan's position is that Beatrice Taillebois, wife of Ribald
of Brittany, was a legitimate daughter of Ives Taillebois. She states
Beatrice was married previously to a certain Eldred, by which marriage
she had a son and heir, Ketel Fitz Eldred, and a daughter, Godith
(mother of William de Lancaster I). We know that Ketel Fitz Eldred was
certainly kin of some nature to Ives Taillebois, as he confirmed the
original grant of Ives Taillebois to St. Mary's, York which is
mentioned above [Reference: William Farrer, Records relating to the
Barony of Kendale, 1 (1924): 142]. Ketel Fitz Eldred's own grants to
religious houses were confirmed by his nephew and heir, William de
Lancaster I (also known as William Taillebois). William de Lancaster
I's granddaughter and heiress, Hawise de Lancaster, in turn also
confirmed the original grant of Ives Taillebois to St. Mary's, York
mentioned above [Reference: William Farrer, Records relating to the
Barony of Kendale, 1 (1924): 143].
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Below please find Mr. Clay's comments regarding the parentage of
Beatrice Taillebois, wife of Ribald (died before 1130), brother of Alan
I, Count of Brittany, which comments appeared in his book, Early
Yorkshire Charters:
"Ribald's wife Beatrice, who presumably died ante 1112, was a daughter
of Ives Taillebois, sheriff of Lincolnshire in or before 1086, but not
by his wife the countess Lucy, whose first husband he was. The
evidence for this is a charter issued by Ives to St. Mary's, York, in
the time of abbot Stephen, giving half his lordship of Kirkby Stephen
[Westmorland] and half the church, and other lands and churches in
Westmorland, and the church of Clapham [Yorkshire], which was witnessed
by Lucy his wife, Ribald his son-in-law, Ralph Taillebois and others.
Ribald's eldest son is sometimes called Ralph Taillebois [using his
mother's name]. As Farrer points out, it is somewhat curious that no
part of the land in Westmorland and Yorkshire which Ives held in his
own right, and not in right of his wife Lucy, descended to the sons of
Ribald; from which circumstance it might be supposed that Ribald had no
issue by Beatrice, were it not for the fact that his son is styled
Ralph Taillebois. A possible explanation is that Beatrice was
illegitimate." [Reference: Charles T. Clay, Early Yorkshire Charters,
5 (1936): 299].
Dr. Keats-Rohan's position is that Beatrice Taillebois, wife of Ribald
of Brittany, was a legitimate daughter of Ives Taillebois. She states
Beatrice was married previously to a certain Eldred, by which marriage
she had a son and heir, Ketel Fitz Eldred, and a daughter, Godith
(mother of William de Lancaster I). We know that Ketel Fitz Eldred was
certainly kin of some nature to Ives Taillebois, as he confirmed the
original grant of Ives Taillebois to St. Mary's, York which is
mentioned above [Reference: William Farrer, Records relating to the
Barony of Kendale, 1 (1924): 142]. Ketel Fitz Eldred's own grants to
religious houses were confirmed by his nephew and heir, William de
Lancaster I (also known as William Taillebois). William de Lancaster
I's granddaughter and heiress, Hawise de Lancaster, in turn also
confirmed the original grant of Ives Taillebois to St. Mary's, York
mentioned above [Reference: William Farrer, Records relating to the
Barony of Kendale, 1 (1924): 143].
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
-
Gjest
Re: Parentage of Beatrice, wife of Ribald of Brittany
In a message dated 12/5/2005 2:39:03 AM Eastern Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
"Ribald's wife Beatrice, who presumably died ante 1112, was a daughter
of Ives Taillebois, sheriff of Lincolnshire in or before 1086, but not
by his wife the countess Lucy, whose first husband he was. The
evidence for this is a charter issued by Ives to St. Mary's, York, in
the time of abbot Stephen, giving half his lordship of Kirkby Stephen
[Westmorland] and half the church, and other lands and churches in
Westmorland, and the church of Clapham [Yorkshire], which was witnessed
by Lucy his wife, Ribald his son-in-law, Ralph Taillebois and others.
Ribald's eldest son is sometimes called Ralph Taillebois [using his
mother's name]. As Farrer points out, it is somewhat curious that no
part of the land in Westmorland and Yorkshire which Ives held in his
own right, and not in right of his wife Lucy, descended to the sons of
Ribald; from which circumstance it might be supposed that Ribald had no
issue by Beatrice, were it not for the fact that his son is styled
Ralph Taillebois. A possible explanation is that Beatrice was
illegitimate." [Reference: Charles T. Clay, Early Yorkshire Charters,
5 (1936): 299].
Dr. Keats-Rohan's position is that Beatrice Taillebois, wife of Ribald
of Brittany, was a legitimate daughter of Ives Taillebois. She states
Beatrice was married previously to a certain Eldred, by which marriage
she had a son and heir, Ketel Fitz Eldred, and a daughter, Godith
(mother of William de Lancaster I). We know that Ketel Fitz Eldred was
certainly kin of some nature to Ives Taillebois, as he confirmed the
original grant of Ives Taillebois to St. Mary's, York which is
mentioned above [Reference: William Farrer, Records relating to the
Barony of Kendale, 1 (1924): 142]. Ketel Fitz Eldred's own grants to
religious houses were confirmed by his nephew and heir, William de
Lancaster I (also known as William Taillebois). William de Lancaster
I's granddaughter and heiress, Hawise de Lancaster, in turn also
confirmed the original grant of Ives Taillebois to St. Mary's, York
mentioned above [Reference: William Farrer, Records relating to the
Barony of Kendale, 1 (1924): 143].
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Dear Doug,
Beatrix had to be illegitimate as the lands of Ivo Taillebois reverted to the
crown upon his death. There is no other answer. The fact that Chetell
confirmed a charter that Ivo Taillebois had granted to an abbey is because he was
the next holder of the lands. There is no relationship in that charter stated
between Chetell and Ivo Taillebois.
MichaelAnne
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
"Ribald's wife Beatrice, who presumably died ante 1112, was a daughter
of Ives Taillebois, sheriff of Lincolnshire in or before 1086, but not
by his wife the countess Lucy, whose first husband he was. The
evidence for this is a charter issued by Ives to St. Mary's, York, in
the time of abbot Stephen, giving half his lordship of Kirkby Stephen
[Westmorland] and half the church, and other lands and churches in
Westmorland, and the church of Clapham [Yorkshire], which was witnessed
by Lucy his wife, Ribald his son-in-law, Ralph Taillebois and others.
Ribald's eldest son is sometimes called Ralph Taillebois [using his
mother's name]. As Farrer points out, it is somewhat curious that no
part of the land in Westmorland and Yorkshire which Ives held in his
own right, and not in right of his wife Lucy, descended to the sons of
Ribald; from which circumstance it might be supposed that Ribald had no
issue by Beatrice, were it not for the fact that his son is styled
Ralph Taillebois. A possible explanation is that Beatrice was
illegitimate." [Reference: Charles T. Clay, Early Yorkshire Charters,
5 (1936): 299].
Dr. Keats-Rohan's position is that Beatrice Taillebois, wife of Ribald
of Brittany, was a legitimate daughter of Ives Taillebois. She states
Beatrice was married previously to a certain Eldred, by which marriage
she had a son and heir, Ketel Fitz Eldred, and a daughter, Godith
(mother of William de Lancaster I). We know that Ketel Fitz Eldred was
certainly kin of some nature to Ives Taillebois, as he confirmed the
original grant of Ives Taillebois to St. Mary's, York which is
mentioned above [Reference: William Farrer, Records relating to the
Barony of Kendale, 1 (1924): 142]. Ketel Fitz Eldred's own grants to
religious houses were confirmed by his nephew and heir, William de
Lancaster I (also known as William Taillebois). William de Lancaster
I's granddaughter and heiress, Hawise de Lancaster, in turn also
confirmed the original grant of Ives Taillebois to St. Mary's, York
mentioned above [Reference: William Farrer, Records relating to the
Barony of Kendale, 1 (1924): 143].
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Dear Doug,
Beatrix had to be illegitimate as the lands of Ivo Taillebois reverted to the
crown upon his death. There is no other answer. The fact that Chetell
confirmed a charter that Ivo Taillebois had granted to an abbey is because he was
the next holder of the lands. There is no relationship in that charter stated
between Chetell and Ivo Taillebois.
MichaelAnne
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Parentage of Beatrice, wife of Ribald of Brittany
Dear MichaelAnne ~
No, Ives Taillebois' daughter Beatrice doesn't have to be illegitimate.
According to Peter of Blois (which source I haven't seen), Ives
Taillebois had one legitimate daughter who was "nobly espoused." I
presume Peter of Blois was referring to Beatrice and her 2nd husband,
Ribald of Brittany (brother of Alan I, Count of Brittany).
Having said that, the monks of St. Mary, York would not have bothered
to obtain a confirmation of Ives Taillebois' gifts to them from Ketel
Fitz Eldred, unless Ketel Fitz Eldred or his wife, Christian, had some
right to Ives Taillebois' lands by lawful descent or outright grant.
Yes, you are correct that Ketel Fitz Eldred did not mention Ives
Taillebois in his confirmation charter. However, I've seen other
confirmation charters in this time period in which the original grantor
is not named.
One such confirmation charter which fails to mention Ives Taillebois'
original grant, or, for that matter, Ketel Fitz Eldred's confirmation,
is the charter dated c. 1210-1215 of Ketel Fitz Eldred's great grand
niece, Hawise (or Helewise) de Lancaster, who with her husband, Gilbert
Fitz Renfrey, "confirmed to the monks of St. Mary, inter alia, the
churches of Eversheim [Haversham], Biethum [Bethum], and Kirkeby in
Kendale with their chapels" [Reference: William Farrer, Records
relating to the Barony of Kendale, 1 (1924): 143].
I might add that If Ketel Fitz Eldred or his great grand niece, Hawise
(or Helewise) de Lancaster, had descended from an illegitimate child of
Ives Taillebois, the monks would not have needed to obtain a
confirmation charter from them.
Lastly, we can be sure it was Ketel Fitz Eldred (and not his wife) who
had the tie to Ives Taillebois because Ketel's nephew, William de
Lancaster I, used the surname Taillebois early in his life.
Given the above facts, we are left with only two viable solutions:
(1) Ketel Fitz Eldred was the legitimate son of Beatrice Taillebois, by
a marriage prior to her known marriage to Ribald.
(2) Ketel Fitz Eldred was the legitimate son of another daughter of
Ives Taillebois, about whom we have no information.
Dr. Keats-Rohan opted for the first solution, as it best harmonizes all
of the things we know about this family.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
ClaudiusI0@aol.com wrote:
No, Ives Taillebois' daughter Beatrice doesn't have to be illegitimate.
According to Peter of Blois (which source I haven't seen), Ives
Taillebois had one legitimate daughter who was "nobly espoused." I
presume Peter of Blois was referring to Beatrice and her 2nd husband,
Ribald of Brittany (brother of Alan I, Count of Brittany).
Having said that, the monks of St. Mary, York would not have bothered
to obtain a confirmation of Ives Taillebois' gifts to them from Ketel
Fitz Eldred, unless Ketel Fitz Eldred or his wife, Christian, had some
right to Ives Taillebois' lands by lawful descent or outright grant.
Yes, you are correct that Ketel Fitz Eldred did not mention Ives
Taillebois in his confirmation charter. However, I've seen other
confirmation charters in this time period in which the original grantor
is not named.
One such confirmation charter which fails to mention Ives Taillebois'
original grant, or, for that matter, Ketel Fitz Eldred's confirmation,
is the charter dated c. 1210-1215 of Ketel Fitz Eldred's great grand
niece, Hawise (or Helewise) de Lancaster, who with her husband, Gilbert
Fitz Renfrey, "confirmed to the monks of St. Mary, inter alia, the
churches of Eversheim [Haversham], Biethum [Bethum], and Kirkeby in
Kendale with their chapels" [Reference: William Farrer, Records
relating to the Barony of Kendale, 1 (1924): 143].
I might add that If Ketel Fitz Eldred or his great grand niece, Hawise
(or Helewise) de Lancaster, had descended from an illegitimate child of
Ives Taillebois, the monks would not have needed to obtain a
confirmation charter from them.
Lastly, we can be sure it was Ketel Fitz Eldred (and not his wife) who
had the tie to Ives Taillebois because Ketel's nephew, William de
Lancaster I, used the surname Taillebois early in his life.
Given the above facts, we are left with only two viable solutions:
(1) Ketel Fitz Eldred was the legitimate son of Beatrice Taillebois, by
a marriage prior to her known marriage to Ribald.
(2) Ketel Fitz Eldred was the legitimate son of another daughter of
Ives Taillebois, about whom we have no information.
Dr. Keats-Rohan opted for the first solution, as it best harmonizes all
of the things we know about this family.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
ClaudiusI0@aol.com wrote:
Dear Doug,
Beatrix had to be illegitimate as the lands of Ivo Taillebois reverted to the
crown upon his death. There is no other answer. The fact that Chetell
confirmed a charter that Ivo Taillebois had granted to an abbey is because he was
the next holder of the lands. There is no relationship in that charter stated
between Chetell and Ivo Taillebois.
MichaelAnne
-
Gjest
Re: Parentage of Beatrice, wife of Ribald of Brittany
In a message dated 12/4/05 11:39:03 PM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<< "Ribald's wife Beatrice, who presumably died ante 1112, was a daughter of
Ives Taillebois, sheriff of Lincolnshire in or before 1086, but not by his
wife the countess Lucy, whose first husband he was. The evidence for this is a
charter issued by Ives to St. Mary's, York, in the time of abbot Stephen,
giving half his lordship of Kirkby Stephen [Westmorland] and half the church, and
other lands and churches in Westmorland, and the church of Clapham [Yorkshire],
which was witnessed by Lucy his wife, Ribald his son-in-law, Ralph Taillebois
and others. Ribald's eldest son is sometimes called Ralph Taillebois [using
his mother's name]. As Farrer points out, it is somewhat curious that no part
of the land in Westmorland and Yorkshire which Ives held in his
own right, and not in right of his wife Lucy, descended to the sons of Ribald;
from which circumstance it might be supposed that Ribald had no issue by
Beatrice, were it not for the fact that his son is styled Ralph Taillebois. A
possible explanation is that Beatrice was illegitimate." [Reference: Charles T.
Clay, Early Yorkshire Charters, 5 (1936): 299]. >>
Or another one is that Ralph Taillebois was not the son of Beatrix (Dau of
Ivo) but rather of some previous wife of Ralph's.
Will Johnson
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<< "Ribald's wife Beatrice, who presumably died ante 1112, was a daughter of
Ives Taillebois, sheriff of Lincolnshire in or before 1086, but not by his
wife the countess Lucy, whose first husband he was. The evidence for this is a
charter issued by Ives to St. Mary's, York, in the time of abbot Stephen,
giving half his lordship of Kirkby Stephen [Westmorland] and half the church, and
other lands and churches in Westmorland, and the church of Clapham [Yorkshire],
which was witnessed by Lucy his wife, Ribald his son-in-law, Ralph Taillebois
and others. Ribald's eldest son is sometimes called Ralph Taillebois [using
his mother's name]. As Farrer points out, it is somewhat curious that no part
of the land in Westmorland and Yorkshire which Ives held in his
own right, and not in right of his wife Lucy, descended to the sons of Ribald;
from which circumstance it might be supposed that Ribald had no issue by
Beatrice, were it not for the fact that his son is styled Ralph Taillebois. A
possible explanation is that Beatrice was illegitimate." [Reference: Charles T.
Clay, Early Yorkshire Charters, 5 (1936): 299]. >>
Or another one is that Ralph Taillebois was not the son of Beatrix (Dau of
Ivo) but rather of some previous wife of Ralph's.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Parentage of Beatrice, wife of Ribald of Brittany
In a message dated 12/5/05 7:32:16 AM Pacific Standard Time,
ClaudiusI0@aol.com writes:
<< Beatrix had to be illegitimate as the lands of Ivo Taillebois reverted to
the
crown upon his death. There is no other answer. The fact that Chetell
confirmed a charter that Ivo Taillebois had granted to an abbey is because
he was
the next holder of the lands. There is no relationship in that charter
stated
between Chetell and Ivo Taillebois. >>
Yes there is. Beatrix died without issue. That *is* another possible answer.
Will Johnson
ClaudiusI0@aol.com writes:
<< Beatrix had to be illegitimate as the lands of Ivo Taillebois reverted to
the
crown upon his death. There is no other answer. The fact that Chetell
confirmed a charter that Ivo Taillebois had granted to an abbey is because
he was
the next holder of the lands. There is no relationship in that charter
stated
between Chetell and Ivo Taillebois. >>
Yes there is. Beatrix died without issue. That *is* another possible answer.
Will Johnson
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Parentage of Beatrice, wife of Ribald of Brittany
Claudiu...@aol.com wrote:
< I wish I could be more certain of the dates involved here.
<
< MichaelAnne
I'm not sure this helps, MichaelAnne, but Clay says that Ralph son of
Ribald "witnessed, with several other officials (or their sons) of
count Stephen, the charter of Osbern de Arches to St. Mary's, York,
1100-c. 1116." [Reference: Clay, Early Yorkshire Charters, 5 (1936):
300]. In a footnote, he says the date is possibly earlier than 1100.
This basically tells is that Ralph son of Ribald was an adult before c.
1116. He next appears as witness of his father's notification on
behalf of St. Mary's, York, c. 1121-c. 1130 [Reference: Clay, Early
Yorkshire Charters, 5 (1936): 299].
DR
< I wish I could be more certain of the dates involved here.
<
< MichaelAnne
I'm not sure this helps, MichaelAnne, but Clay says that Ralph son of
Ribald "witnessed, with several other officials (or their sons) of
count Stephen, the charter of Osbern de Arches to St. Mary's, York,
1100-c. 1116." [Reference: Clay, Early Yorkshire Charters, 5 (1936):
300]. In a footnote, he says the date is possibly earlier than 1100.
This basically tells is that Ralph son of Ribald was an adult before c.
1116. He next appears as witness of his father's notification on
behalf of St. Mary's, York, c. 1121-c. 1130 [Reference: Clay, Early
Yorkshire Charters, 5 (1936): 299].
DR
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Parentage of Beatrice, wife of Ribald of Brittany
Claudiu...@aol.com wrote:
< I wish I could be more certain of the dates involved here.
<
< MichaelAnne
I'm not sure this helps, MichaelAnne, but Clay says that Ralph son of
Ribald "witnessed, with several other officials (or their sons) of
count Stephen, the charter of Osbern de Arches to St. Mary's, York,
1100-c. 1116." [Reference: Clay, Early Yorkshire Charters, 5 (1936):
300]. In a footnote, he says the date of the charter is possibly
earlier than 1100. This basically tells us that Ralph son of Ribald
was an adult before c. 1116.
Ralph next appears as a witness of his father's notification on behalf
of St. Mary's, York, c. 1121-c. 1130 [Reference: Clay, Early Yorkshire
Charters, 5 (1936): 299].
DR
< I wish I could be more certain of the dates involved here.
<
< MichaelAnne
I'm not sure this helps, MichaelAnne, but Clay says that Ralph son of
Ribald "witnessed, with several other officials (or their sons) of
count Stephen, the charter of Osbern de Arches to St. Mary's, York,
1100-c. 1116." [Reference: Clay, Early Yorkshire Charters, 5 (1936):
300]. In a footnote, he says the date of the charter is possibly
earlier than 1100. This basically tells us that Ralph son of Ribald
was an adult before c. 1116.
Ralph next appears as a witness of his father's notification on behalf
of St. Mary's, York, c. 1121-c. 1130 [Reference: Clay, Early Yorkshire
Charters, 5 (1936): 299].
DR
-
Gjest
Re: Parentage of Beatrice, wife of Ribald of Brittany
In a message dated 12/5/2005 7:39:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
I'm not sure this helps, MichaelAnne, but Clay says that Ralph son of
Ribald "witnessed, with several other officials (or their sons) of
count Stephen, the charter of Osbern de Arches to St. Mary's, York,
1100-c. 1116." [Reference: Clay, Early Yorkshire Charters, 5 (1936):
300]. In a footnote, he says the date of the charter is possibly
earlier than 1100. This basically tells us that Ralph son of Ribald
was an adult before c. 1116.
Ralph next appears as a witness of his father's notification on behalf
of St. Mary's, York, c. 1121-c. 1130 [Reference: Clay, Early Yorkshire
Charters, 5 (1936): 299].
Dear Doug,
Thank you for the information. This does help.
MichaelAnne
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
I'm not sure this helps, MichaelAnne, but Clay says that Ralph son of
Ribald "witnessed, with several other officials (or their sons) of
count Stephen, the charter of Osbern de Arches to St. Mary's, York,
1100-c. 1116." [Reference: Clay, Early Yorkshire Charters, 5 (1936):
300]. In a footnote, he says the date of the charter is possibly
earlier than 1100. This basically tells us that Ralph son of Ribald
was an adult before c. 1116.
Ralph next appears as a witness of his father's notification on behalf
of St. Mary's, York, c. 1121-c. 1130 [Reference: Clay, Early Yorkshire
Charters, 5 (1936): 299].
Dear Doug,
Thank you for the information. This does help.
MichaelAnne
-
Gjest
Re: Parentage of Beatrice, wife of Ribald of Brittany
Dear Will,
I don't think it could be possible from a chronological standpoint that the
children of Ribald were from another mother other than Beatrix. Ribald was
married to Beatrix before 1093. Ralph the eldest son of Ribald succeed his
father by 1130 [Pipe Roll 31 Henry I] and was still alive in 1167/8. His son
Robert did not succeed him in the barony of Middleham until 1177. Robert was an
adult before 1183 when he built Beauchief Abbey. In 1190 Robert built the
castle of Middleham. Robert's eldest son Ralph was a minor at his fathers death
ca. 1192. If Ralph son of Ribald was born before 1093 he would have been
extremely old [which is possible] when Robert was born. It makes more sense
that Ralph son of Ribald was born ca. 1100-1110 and if that is the case Beatrix
was probably young when she married Ribald of Middleham. I wish I could be
more certain of the dates involved here.
MichaelAnne
I don't think it could be possible from a chronological standpoint that the
children of Ribald were from another mother other than Beatrix. Ribald was
married to Beatrix before 1093. Ralph the eldest son of Ribald succeed his
father by 1130 [Pipe Roll 31 Henry I] and was still alive in 1167/8. His son
Robert did not succeed him in the barony of Middleham until 1177. Robert was an
adult before 1183 when he built Beauchief Abbey. In 1190 Robert built the
castle of Middleham. Robert's eldest son Ralph was a minor at his fathers death
ca. 1192. If Ralph son of Ribald was born before 1093 he would have been
extremely old [which is possible] when Robert was born. It makes more sense
that Ralph son of Ribald was born ca. 1100-1110 and if that is the case Beatrix
was probably young when she married Ribald of Middleham. I wish I could be
more certain of the dates involved here.
MichaelAnne
-
Gjest
Re: Parentage of Beatrice, wife of Ribald of Brittany
In a message dated 12/5/05 4:13:25 PM Pacific Standard Time, ClaudiusI0
writes:
<< I don't think it could be possible from a chronological standpoint that
the children of Ribald were from another mother other than Beatrix. Ribald was
married to Beatrix before 1093. Ralph the eldest son of Ribald succeed his
father by 1130 [Pipe Roll 31 Henry I] and was still alive in 1167/8. His son
Robert did not succeed him in the barony of Middleham until 1177. Robert was
an adult before 1183 when he built Beauchief Abbey. In 1190 Robert built the
castle of Middleham. Robert's eldest son Ralph was a minor at his fathers
death ca. 1192. If Ralph son of Ribald was born before 1093 he would have been
extremely old [which is possible] when Robert was born. It makes more sense
that Ralph son of Ribald was born ca. 1100-1110 and if that is the case
Beatrix was probably young when she married Ribald of Middleham. I wish I could
be more certain of the dates involved here. >>
What I'm looking at is that Beatrix and Ribald where married between 1086 and
1093. Eldred was living in 1086 and in 1093 Ribald is described as the
son-in-law of Ivo.
A more limiiting factor on the ages of Ralph's children is his wife Agatha de
Brus who d 1142.
Playing with the dates we can let
Ralph be 40 when he succeeded his father thus b 1090
Having his son Robert when Ralph is 40 also allows Robert to be born 1130
certainly not to old to build a castle in 1190 and yet have a son Ranulph, a
minor abt 1192 but of full age in 1209, thus born maybe 1172/91
I don't see a chronologic problem with Ribald having an earlier wife and it
would explain why nothing came down to Ralph, from Ivo's estate.
Will Johnson
writes:
<< I don't think it could be possible from a chronological standpoint that
the children of Ribald were from another mother other than Beatrix. Ribald was
married to Beatrix before 1093. Ralph the eldest son of Ribald succeed his
father by 1130 [Pipe Roll 31 Henry I] and was still alive in 1167/8. His son
Robert did not succeed him in the barony of Middleham until 1177. Robert was
an adult before 1183 when he built Beauchief Abbey. In 1190 Robert built the
castle of Middleham. Robert's eldest son Ralph was a minor at his fathers
death ca. 1192. If Ralph son of Ribald was born before 1093 he would have been
extremely old [which is possible] when Robert was born. It makes more sense
that Ralph son of Ribald was born ca. 1100-1110 and if that is the case
Beatrix was probably young when she married Ribald of Middleham. I wish I could
be more certain of the dates involved here. >>
What I'm looking at is that Beatrix and Ribald where married between 1086 and
1093. Eldred was living in 1086 and in 1093 Ribald is described as the
son-in-law of Ivo.
A more limiiting factor on the ages of Ralph's children is his wife Agatha de
Brus who d 1142.
Playing with the dates we can let
Ralph be 40 when he succeeded his father thus b 1090
Having his son Robert when Ralph is 40 also allows Robert to be born 1130
certainly not to old to build a castle in 1190 and yet have a son Ranulph, a
minor abt 1192 but of full age in 1209, thus born maybe 1172/91
I don't see a chronologic problem with Ribald having an earlier wife and it
would explain why nothing came down to Ralph, from Ivo's estate.
Will Johnson
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Parentage of Beatrice, wife of Ribald of Brittany
ClaudiusI0@aol.com wrote:
Is this a hard date for when he succeeded, or simply the first
indication that he is acting as baron? Likewise is he acting as an
adult? (What I am getting at is, can we use this to fix a precise
birthdate - 1156, or is it just a datapoint indicating that he was born
sometime prior to 1156?)
taf
Dear Will,
I don't think it could be possible from a chronological standpoint that the
children of Ribald were from another mother other than Beatrix. Ribald was
married to Beatrix before 1093. Ralph the eldest son of Ribald succeed his
father by 1130 [Pipe Roll 31 Henry I] and was still alive in 1167/8. His son
Robert did not succeed him in the barony of Middleham until 1177.
Is this a hard date for when he succeeded, or simply the first
indication that he is acting as baron? Likewise is he acting as an
adult? (What I am getting at is, can we use this to fix a precise
birthdate - 1156, or is it just a datapoint indicating that he was born
sometime prior to 1156?)
taf
-
Gjest
Re: Parentage of Beatrice, wife of Ribald of Brittany
In a message dated 12/5/2005 7:24:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
WJhonson@aol.com writes:
What I'm looking at is that Beatrix and Ribald where married between 1086
and
1093. Eldred was living in 1086 and in 1093 Ribald is described as the
son-in-law of Ivo.
A more limiting factor on the ages of Ralph's children is his wife Agatha de
Brus who d 1142.
Playing with the dates we can let
Ralph be 40 when he succeeded his father thus b 1090
Having his son Robert when Ralph is 40 also allows Robert to be born 1130
certainly not to old to build a castle in 1190 and yet have a son Ranulph, a
minor abt 1192 but of full age in 1209, thus born maybe 1172/91
I don't see a chronologic problem with Ribald having an earlier wife and it
would explain why nothing came down to Ralph, from Ivo's estate.
Dear Will,
I don't believe Beatrix was married to Eldred. I think this is something
again invented by earlier researchers to explain what they saw as a descent of
land that had formerly belonged to Ivo Taillebois whose lands actually
reverted to the crown.
I think more documentation is needed before we can proceed further with any
real analysis of this question. With the documentation we possess either
answer [illegitimacy or former wife] seems probable.
MichaelAnne
WJhonson@aol.com writes:
What I'm looking at is that Beatrix and Ribald where married between 1086
and
1093. Eldred was living in 1086 and in 1093 Ribald is described as the
son-in-law of Ivo.
A more limiting factor on the ages of Ralph's children is his wife Agatha de
Brus who d 1142.
Playing with the dates we can let
Ralph be 40 when he succeeded his father thus b 1090
Having his son Robert when Ralph is 40 also allows Robert to be born 1130
certainly not to old to build a castle in 1190 and yet have a son Ranulph, a
minor abt 1192 but of full age in 1209, thus born maybe 1172/91
I don't see a chronologic problem with Ribald having an earlier wife and it
would explain why nothing came down to Ralph, from Ivo's estate.
Dear Will,
I don't believe Beatrix was married to Eldred. I think this is something
again invented by earlier researchers to explain what they saw as a descent of
land that had formerly belonged to Ivo Taillebois whose lands actually
reverted to the crown.
I think more documentation is needed before we can proceed further with any
real analysis of this question. With the documentation we possess either
answer [illegitimacy or former wife] seems probable.
MichaelAnne
-
Gjest
Re: Parentage of Beatrice, wife of Ribald of Brittany
In a message dated 12/5/2005 8:39:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
farmerie@interfold.com writes:
Is this a hard date for when he succeeded, or simply the first
indication that he is acting as baron? Likewise is he acting as an
adult? (What I am getting at is, can we use this to fix a precise
birth date - 1156, or is it just a datapoint indicating that he was born
sometime prior to 1156?)
taf
Dear Todd,
Robert fitz Ralph was an adult by 1177 and this is simply the first
occurrence of him that is documented that he was in possession of the barony of
Middleham.
MichaelAnne
farmerie@interfold.com writes:
Is this a hard date for when he succeeded, or simply the first
indication that he is acting as baron? Likewise is he acting as an
adult? (What I am getting at is, can we use this to fix a precise
birth date - 1156, or is it just a datapoint indicating that he was born
sometime prior to 1156?)
taf
Dear Todd,
Robert fitz Ralph was an adult by 1177 and this is simply the first
occurrence of him that is documented that he was in possession of the barony of
Middleham.
MichaelAnne
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Parentage of Beatrice, wife of Ribald of Brittany
In message of 6 Dec, ClaudiusI0@aol.com wrote:
This part of EYC is Clay's summary of his interpretation of the charters
rather than the charters themselves. The precise text is:
"Possibly, as a boy, he was the Ralph Taillebois who witnessed the
charter of Ives Taillebois to St Mary's York, c. 1091-94 (see above).
He was more often known as Ralph son of Ribald. So described he
witnessed, with several officials and tenants (or their sons) of count
Stephen, the charter of Osbern de Arches to St Mary's York,
1100-c.1116 [1]"
Then there is a paragraph listing some details of Ralph's life and is
followed by:
"At first sight it seems doubtful whether all these references relate
to the same man. But the cumulative evidence does not support any
alternative suggestion [8]."
The footnote [1] merely says "E.Y.C. no 527. The date is possibly
earlier that 1100 (see p. 1n above)". Unfortunately charter no 527 is
not in this volume, nor can I work out which volume it might be in.
Possibly it is in Farrer's initial three volumes but those are like gold
dust and I've yet even to see sight of these on the second hand market.
The footnote [8] says "The first three generations - Ribald, Ralph,
Robert - are given in a MS pedigree, with annotation, of the lords of
Middleham dating from the time of Henry VI. ..." Note that this is
some three centuries after the time referred to, though Clay reports
that Farrer noted that the MS appeared to be based on the evidence of
records seen by the compiler.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
In a message dated 12/5/2005 7:39:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
I'm not sure this helps, MichaelAnne, but Clay says that Ralph son
of Ribald "witnessed, with several other officials (or their sons)
of count Stephen, the charter of Osbern de Arches to St. Mary's,
York, 1100-c. 1116." [Reference: Clay, Early Yorkshire Charters,
5 (1936): 300]. In a footnote, he says the date of the charter is
possibly earlier than 1100. This basically tells us that Ralph
son of Ribald was an adult before c. 1116.
Ralph next appears as a witness of his father's notification on
behalf of St. Mary's, York, c. 1121-c. 1130 [Reference: Clay,
Early Yorkshire Charters, 5 (1936): 299].
Dear Doug,
Thank you for the information. This does help.
MichaelAnne
This part of EYC is Clay's summary of his interpretation of the charters
rather than the charters themselves. The precise text is:
"Possibly, as a boy, he was the Ralph Taillebois who witnessed the
charter of Ives Taillebois to St Mary's York, c. 1091-94 (see above).
He was more often known as Ralph son of Ribald. So described he
witnessed, with several officials and tenants (or their sons) of count
Stephen, the charter of Osbern de Arches to St Mary's York,
1100-c.1116 [1]"
Then there is a paragraph listing some details of Ralph's life and is
followed by:
"At first sight it seems doubtful whether all these references relate
to the same man. But the cumulative evidence does not support any
alternative suggestion [8]."
The footnote [1] merely says "E.Y.C. no 527. The date is possibly
earlier that 1100 (see p. 1n above)". Unfortunately charter no 527 is
not in this volume, nor can I work out which volume it might be in.
Possibly it is in Farrer's initial three volumes but those are like gold
dust and I've yet even to see sight of these on the second hand market.
The footnote [8] says "The first three generations - Ribald, Ralph,
Robert - are given in a MS pedigree, with annotation, of the lords of
Middleham dating from the time of Henry VI. ..." Note that this is
some three centuries after the time referred to, though Clay reports
that Farrer noted that the MS appeared to be based on the evidence of
records seen by the compiler.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
-
J.C.B.Sharp
Re: Parentage of Beatrice, wife of Ribald of Brittany
In article <ab87f2d44d.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk>, tim@powys.org (Tim
Powys-Lybbe) wrote:
It is in volume I p 408-9. Dated by Farrer 1100-c.1116, a note states that
it is before the Lindsey Survey, but does not explain the earlier date. I
guess that comes from the fact that the first witness is Robert de Brus.
J.C.B.Sharp
London
Powys-Lybbe) wrote:
In message of 6 Dec, ClaudiusI0@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 12/5/2005 7:39:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
I'm not sure this helps, MichaelAnne, but Clay says that Ralph son
of Ribald "witnessed, with several other officials (or their sons)
of count Stephen, the charter of Osbern de Arches to St. Mary's,
York, 1100-c. 1116." [Reference: Clay, Early Yorkshire Charters,
5 (1936): 300]. In a footnote, he says the date of the charter is
possibly earlier than 1100. This basically tells us that Ralph
son of Ribald was an adult before c. 1116.
Ralph next appears as a witness of his father's notification on
behalf of St. Mary's, York, c. 1121-c. 1130 [Reference: Clay,
Early Yorkshire Charters, 5 (1936): 299].
Dear Doug,
Thank you for the information. This does help.
MichaelAnne
This part of EYC is Clay's summary of his interpretation of the charters
rather than the charters themselves. The precise text is:
"Possibly, as a boy, he was the Ralph Taillebois who witnessed the
charter of Ives Taillebois to St Mary's York, c. 1091-94 (see above).
He was more often known as Ralph son of Ribald. So described he
witnessed, with several officials and tenants (or their sons) of count
Stephen, the charter of Osbern de Arches to St Mary's York,
1100-c.1116 [1]"
Then there is a paragraph listing some details of Ralph's life and is
followed by:
"At first sight it seems doubtful whether all these references relate
to the same man. But the cumulative evidence does not support any
alternative suggestion [8]."
The footnote [1] merely says "E.Y.C. no 527. The date is possibly
earlier that 1100 (see p. 1n above)". Unfortunately charter no 527 is
not in this volume, nor can I work out which volume it might be in.
Possibly it is in Farrer's initial three volumes but those are like gold
dust and I've yet even to see sight of these on the second hand market.
The footnote [8] says "The first three generations - Ribald, Ralph,
Robert - are given in a MS pedigree, with annotation, of the lords of
Middleham dating from the time of Henry VI. ..." Note that this is
some three centuries after the time referred to, though Clay reports
that Farrer noted that the MS appeared to be based on the evidence of
records seen by the compiler.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
It is in volume I p 408-9. Dated by Farrer 1100-c.1116, a note states that
it is before the Lindsey Survey, but does not explain the earlier date. I
guess that comes from the fact that the first witness is Robert de Brus.
J.C.B.Sharp
London