SP Correction: Marjory Comyn, wife (1st) of John de Keith

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SP Correction: Marjory Comyn, wife (1st) of John de Keith

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 des 2005 05:16:03

Sunday, 4 December, 2005



Hello All,

The account in Scots Peerage concerning the family of Keith says
of Sir John de Keith (d. ca. 1270) that he was said to have married
Margaret Comyn, who may have been a daughter of William Comyn, earl
of Buchan [1]. This identification, of the uncertain ("said to
have been") variety, can now be corrected based on the following
dispensation, dated at Fondi on 14 Jan 1378/9::


' Reg Aven 215, 50
To the bishop of Moray. Faculty to dispense Reginald Cheyn,
donzel, and Murielle, damselle, daughter of Sir William de Keth,
of Moray and Aberdeen dioceses, from the impediment to marriage
arising from the third and fourth degrees of consanguinity.
Fondi, 19 Kal. Feb., anno 1.
SRO Vat. Trans., iv, no. 46. ' [2]

Muriel Keith, the future 2nd wife of Robert Stewart, 1st Duke of
Albany (d. 1420), was contracted to marry Reginald le Cheyne, son of
Sir Reginald le Cheyne by his wife (as her first husband), Helen of
Strathearn. While there are notable gaps in the ancestry of Muriel
Keith, she and Reginald le Cheyne do share a descent from the
Comyns. However, this is too distant to require a dispensation if
Muriel was a great-great-great granddaughter of William Comyn, Earl
of Buchan (d. 1233), which would be the case if Margaret Comyn (her
ancestress) was Earl William’s daughter.

Interestingly, the chronology of the generations here, taken
together with the dispensation above, supplies a ready answer:

1. Sir John de Keith, husband of Margaret Comyn (alleged in the
SP Keith account), died ca. 1270.

2. Reginald le Cheyne was a great-grandson of Marjory Comyn,
daughter of Alexander Comyn, Earl of Buchan (d. 1290), son
of William Comyn mentioned above. Her son was Malise, Earl
of Strathearn from 1312 to his death in 1328 [3], and
grandfather of Reginald.

There is one discernable basis on which the relationship
between Reginald le Cheyne and Muriel Keith would have existed: if
Margaret Comyn, wife of Sir John de Keith (d. ca. 1270), was
identical to Marjory Comyn, and married 2ndly to Malise, Earl of
Strathearn (d. 1312). This would mean the parentage ‘said to have
been’ that of Margaret, wife of Sir John de Keith, was off one
generation: she would not have been the daughter of William Comyn,
Earl of Buchan, but rather of his son Alexander. There is no
evidence that Earl Malise and Marjory Comyn were married much
before 1275: as Lindsay wrote,

' The wife of this earl, about 1275, was named Marjory, as we
understand the attesting clause of No. cv., and is stated by
Wyntoun, Book VIII. chap. vi., to have been the second sister
of John Comyn, Earl of Buchan, who negotiated on behalf of
Earl Malise the marriage settlement above mentioned [dated at
London, April 26, 1293 for his daughter Matilda and Robert de
Tony, son of Ralph].' [4]


The relationship between Reginald le Cheyne and Muriel Keith
would then be shown as follows:

[NOTE: this chart is conjectural, but deemed probable.]


Alexander Comyn = Elizabeth de Quincy
E of Buchan I
__________________I________________
I III
1) Sir John = Marjory = 2) Malise <siblings>
de Keith I (als I E of Strathearn
d.ca. 1270 I Margaret) I d. 1312
_____________I__ ___I__________________________
I I I I I I
Sir William Bernard Malise Gilbert Robert Maud =
de Keith de Keith E of Robert
d. bef 1293 Strathearn; d. 1328 de Tony
I ______I_______________________
I I I I
Sir Edward Malise Mary Helen
= Isabella de E of Strathearn = 1) Sir Reginald
Synton d. ca. 1343 I le Cheyne
I I I = 2) Sir David
I V I I de Graham
Sir William de I I__________
Keith I I
= Margaret Fraser __________________I_______ V
__I_____________ I I I
III I I I I
<siblings> Muriel * Reginald Mary Mariota
Keith le Cheyne
= Robert
Stewart
Duke of Albany


Reginald le Cheyne likely never married Muriel Keith, and is
known to have died sine prole. Robert Stewart and Muriel Keith
had a dispensation to marry dated 4 May 1380, so Reginald likely
died some time before that date [5], probably before the planned
marriage occurred. The foregoing solution, in addition to
correcting the Keith-Comyn ancestry, will also enhance same with
descents from Roger de Quincy, Earl of Winchester and his wife
Elen/Helen of Galloway (including Magna Carta, Carolingian and
other interesting ancestry).

Hope this is of interest. Should anyone have further
documentation, comment, or criticism, that will be most welcome.

Cheers,

John *



NOTES

[1] SP VI:28-29


[2] Charles Burns, ed., Calendar of Papal Letters to Scotland of
Clement VII of Avignon (1378-1394), p. 21.


[3] SP VIII:247, sub _Ancient Earls of Strathearn_. See also
William Alexander Lindsay, K.C., Windsor Herald; John Dowden,
D.D., LL.D.; and John Maitland Thomson, LL.D., eds., Charters,
Bulls and Other Documents relating to the Abbey of Inchaffray
(Edinburgh: T. and A. Constable, 1908 - Scottish History
Society, 3rd Series, Vol. 56), pp. lxvii-lxix.


[4] Lindsay, ibid., p. lxvi.


[5] Burns, ibid., p. 44.


* John P. Ravilious

John P. Ravilious

Re: SP Correction: Marjory Comyn, wife (1st) of John de Keit

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 05 des 2005 12:31:29

Monday, 5 December, 2005


Hello All,

I was asked off-list to explain who or what "Wyntoun" was (a
reference to which was cited by Lindsay, re: which see below or the
original post).

This from the Encyclopedia Britannica, re: Andrew Wyntoun and his
"Original Chronicle":

Dear Doug,

Hope all is well out your way (we're expecting a bit of snow later
today, accent on >bit< ....)

The reference is to Andrew Wyntoun and his chronicle. A small
blurb from Encyclopedia Britannica:

" Andrew of Wyntoun (?1350-?1420), author of a long metrical history of
Scotland, called the Orygynale Cronykil of Scotland, was a canon
regular of St Andrews, and prior of St Serf's in Lochieven.

He wrote the Chronicle at the request of his patron, Sir John of
Wemyss, whose representative, Mr Erskine Wemyss of Wemyss Castle, Fife,
possesses the oldest extant manuscript of the work. The subject is the
history of Scotland from the mythical period (hence the epithet
"original") down to the accession of James I in 1406. The earlier books
are of no historical value, but the later have in all outstanding
matters stood the test of comparison with contemporary records. The
philological interest is great, for few works of this date, and no
other of like magnuitude, are extant in the vernacular. The Chronicle
is also noteworthy for containing one of our earliest mentions of Robin
Hood.

The text is preserved in eight manuscripts, of which three are in the
British Library, the Royal (17 D xx.), the Cottonian (Nero D. xi.) and
the Lansdowne (197); two in the Advocates' library, Edinburgh (1923 and
1924), one at Wemyss Castle (u.s.); one in the university library at St
Andrews, and one, formerly in the possession of the Boswells of
Auchinleck, later the property of Mr John Ferguson, Duns, Berwickshire.
The first edition of the Chronicle (based on the Royal manuscript) was
published by David Macpherson in 1795, the second by David Laing, in
the series of "Scottish Historians" (1872). Both are superseded by F.
J. Amours (ed.), The Original Chronicle of Andrew of Wyntoun: Printed
on Parallel Pages from the Cottonian and Wemyss MSS., with the Variants
of the Other Texts, The Scottish Text Society, 1st series, 50, 53-54,
56-57, 63, 6 vols (Edinburgh: Blackwood, 1903-14), which remains the
standard edition. "


Cheers,

John



Therav3@aol.com wrote:
Sunday, 4 December, 2005



Hello All,

The account in Scots Peerage concerning the family of Keith says
of Sir John de Keith (d. ca. 1270) that he was said to have married
Margaret Comyn, who may have been a daughter of William Comyn, earl
of Buchan [1]. This identification, of the uncertain ("said to
have been") variety, can now be corrected based on the following
dispensation, dated at Fondi on 14 Jan 1378/9::



<<<<<<<SNIP >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

There is one discernable basis on which the relationship
between Reginald le Cheyne and Muriel Keith would have existed: if
Margaret Comyn, wife of Sir John de Keith (d. ca. 1270), was
identical to Marjory Comyn, and married 2ndly to Malise, Earl of
Strathearn (d. 1312). This would mean the parentage 'said to have
been' that of Margaret, wife of Sir John de Keith, was off one
generation: she would not have been the daughter of William Comyn,
Earl of Buchan, but rather of his son Alexander. There is no
evidence that Earl Malise and Marjory Comyn were married much
before 1275: as Lindsay wrote,

' The wife of this earl, about 1275, was named Marjory, as we
understand the attesting clause of No. cv., and is stated by
Wyntoun, Book VIII. chap. vi., to have been the second sister
of John Comyn, Earl of Buchan, who negotiated on behalf of
Earl Malise the marriage settlement above mentioned [dated at
London, April 26, 1293 for his daughter Matilda and Robert de
Tony, son of Ralph].' [4]


The relationship between Reginald le Cheyne and Muriel Keith
would then be shown as follows:


<<<<<<<<<<<SNIP>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Gjest

Re: SP Correction: Marjory Comyn, wife (1st) of John de Keit

Legg inn av Gjest » 06 des 2005 01:58:01

)In a message dated 12/4/05 7:22:30 PM Pacific Standard Time, Therav3 writes:

<<
' The wife of this earl, about 1275, was named Marjory, as we
understand the attesting clause of No. cv., and is stated by
Wyntoun, Book VIII. chap. vi., to have been the second sister
of John Comyn, Earl of Buchan, >>

On the identify of the husband of Marjory Comyn here described
I want to add the possibility that she is affixed to the wrong Malise.

We had discussion in the past year about the various Malise, Earl of
Strathern persons, and in conjunction with that, I had placed this Marjory Comyn, (dau
of Alexander 2nd Earl Buchan,) as the wife to Malise the SIXTH Earl who d
1312/3 whereas you, John, are placing her as the wife to the Seventh Earl who d
1323/8

The chrnology appears to work either way to allow her to be wife to either
Malise in 1275

Will Johnson

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