Fwd: The parentage of Orm Fitz Ketel (living 1094)

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Fwd: The parentage of Orm Fitz Ketel (living 1094)

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 des 2005 04:10:02

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Douglas asked what Kathleen's evidence was, so I'm forwarding the original
message sent by J.C.B.Sharp
London. Douglas must have not read this one.

In a message dated 12/2/05 12:07:53 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jcbs@obtfc.win-uk.net writes:

<< In a very significant article Kathleen Thompson has collated all of the
extant versions of the charter dated by Farrer to 1094 (Monasteries and
Settlement in Norman Lancashire: unpublished charters of Roger the
Poitevin, Transactions of the Record Society of Lancashire & Cheshire,
CXL, 201-225). She concludes that what Orm witnessed was most likely a
confirmation and that the date was closer to 1130. >>

So we see the evidence is "ALLof the extant versions of the charter dated by
Farrer...." [empasis added]
Pretty compelling and convincing. Whereas Farrer cited one copy.

Will Johnson


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From: jcbs@obtfc.win-uk.net (J.C.B.Sharp)
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Subject: Re: The parentage of Orm Fitz Ketel (living 1094)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 21:18 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
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In a very significant article Kathleen Thompson has collated all of the
extant versions of the charter dated by Farrer to 1094 (Monasteries and
Settlement in Norman Lancashire: unpublished charters of Roger the
Poitevin, Transactions of the Record Society of Lancashire & Cheshire,
CXL, 201-225). She concludes that what Orm witnessed was most likely a
confirmation and that the date was closer to 1130.

It is important to understand that the barony of Kendal did not exist
before the time of King Richard I, and that there is no evidence that the
Lancaster family were tenants in chief before that time.

Ivo Taillebois clearly held directly from the king. He was given a large
fee and a careful analysis shows that most fell eventually to the crown.
So he had no heir, although this does not rule out the possibility that he
married off a daughter or two. In particular he held the important castle
of Appleby which was included in the share of his widow Lucy but came to
the crown on her death. The same thing happened to his property in
Normandy at Cristot which was given to Saint-Etienne Caen (Haskins, Norman
Institutions, 9).

The fact that Ketel's charter giving the same churches to St Mary York as
Ivo had given is worded as a grant rather than a confirmation is not
conclusive. At this date it could have been either.

J.C.B.Sharp
London


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Douglas Richardson

Re: Fwd: The parentage of Orm Fitz Ketel (living 1094)

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 03 des 2005 10:49:22

J.C.B. Sharp kindly provided a synopsis of Ms. Thompson's argument. We
want to see the evidence now.

DR

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
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Douglas asked what Kathleen's evidence was, so I'm forwarding the original
message sent by J.C.B.Sharp
London. Douglas must have not read this one.

In a message dated 12/2/05 12:07:53 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jcbs@obtfc.win-uk.net writes:

In a very significant article Kathleen Thompson has collated all of the
extant versions of the charter dated by Farrer to 1094 (Monasteries and
Settlement in Norman Lancashire: unpublished charters of Roger the
Poitevin, Transactions of the Record Society of Lancashire & Cheshire,
CXL, 201-225). She concludes that what Orm witnessed was most likely a
confirmation and that the date was closer to 1130.

So we see the evidence is "ALLof the extant versions of the charter dated by
Farrer...." [empasis added]
Pretty compelling and convincing. Whereas Farrer cited one copy.

Will Johnson


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From: jcbs@obtfc.win-uk.net (J.C.B.Sharp)
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Subject: Re: The parentage of Orm Fitz Ketel (living 1094)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 21:18 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
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In a very significant article Kathleen Thompson has collated all of the
extant versions of the charter dated by Farrer to 1094 (Monasteries and
Settlement in Norman Lancashire: unpublished charters of Roger the
Poitevin, Transactions of the Record Society of Lancashire & Cheshire,
CXL, 201-225). She concludes that what Orm witnessed was most likely a
confirmation and that the date was closer to 1130.

It is important to understand that the barony of Kendal did not exist
before the time of King Richard I, and that there is no evidence that the
Lancaster family were tenants in chief before that time.

Ivo Taillebois clearly held directly from the king. He was given a large
fee and a careful analysis shows that most fell eventually to the crown.
So he had no heir, although this does not rule out the possibility that he
married off a daughter or two. In particular he held the important castle
of Appleby which was included in the share of his widow Lucy but came to
the crown on her death. The same thing happened to his property in
Normandy at Cristot which was given to Saint-Etienne Caen (Haskins, Norman
Institutions, 9).

The fact that Ketel's charter giving the same churches to St Mary York as
Ivo had given is worded as a grant rather than a confirmation is not
conclusive. At this date it could have been either.

J.C.B.Sharp
London


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