Russian wife of Earl Rognvald of Orkney?

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Kenny

Russian wife of Earl Rognvald of Orkney?

Legg inn av Kenny » 01 des 2005 18:48:17

Does anyone have any information on who was the first wife of Earl
Rognvald (died about 1046) of Orkney? Several sources name Arlogia of
Russia, daughter of Vladimir of Russia (not Vladimir I of Kiev, who
lived 958 to 1015). Does anyone know who this is? I believe Arlogia is
a form of either Olga or the feminine version of Olaf. These sources
give the De Brus line as descending through her; others mention
Felicity of Normandy.

Kenny

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Russian wife of Earl Rognvald of Orkney?

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 02 des 2005 09:44:30

Kenny wrote:
Does anyone have any information on who was the first wife of Earl
Rognvald (died about 1046) of Orkney?

First wife? There is no legitimate information on _any_ wife.


Several sources name Arlogia of
Russia, daughter of Vladimir of Russia (not Vladimir I of Kiev, who
lived 958 to 1015). Does anyone know who this is?

She is invented.

I believe Arlogia is
a form of either Olga or the feminine version of Olaf. These sources
give the De Brus line as descending through her; others mention
Felicity of Normandy.


Ah - that is part of the problem. The descents of the Bruce/de Brus
family from Rognevald are pure fabrication, based on nothing more than a
gross similarity between Brusisson ("son of Brusi") and de Brus (derived
from "of Brix"). "Felicity of Normandy" us likewise concocted, to
explain how a Orkney Jarl came to have a Norman son. It looks like a
Russian non-wife has in turn supplanted the Norman one, so as to give
the faux-descendants a more elaborate maternal pedigree.


As far as I am aware, details of Rognevald are known only from sagas
written a good while (150 years) after his death. These provide an
account of his wonderings, his political alliances and the eventually
fatal struggles with his uncle, but mention nothing of wives or
children. Importantly, he died about 1045, and had he left a son, that
son would have had a strong claim to a portion of the Orkneys (1/3,
perhaps even 2/3) when Thorfinn died, leaving sons who were not yet
adult, and certainly not able to resist a counter claim. Further, the
King of Norway was the feudal lord of the Orkneys. Magnus had supported
both Rognevald's father Brusi and Rognevald himself against Thorfinn,
while Rognevald had saved the life of Harald Hardrada - such a debt
would certainly have been honored by that king. Hence any sons of
Rognevald would have been at the Norwegian court and of special interest
to the king, not living in obscurity in Normandy.

taf

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Russian wife of Earl Rognvald of Orkney?

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 02 des 2005 09:53:07

Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
Kenny wrote:

Does anyone have any information on who was the first wife of Earl
Rognvald (died about 1046) of Orkney? Several sources name Arlogia of
Russia, daughter of Vladimir of Russia (not Vladimir I of Kiev, who
lived 958 to 1015). Does anyone know who this is?

She is invented.

I should add that Vladimir I of Kiev _is_ the intended father -
Rognevald spent his time in Russia at Jaroslav's court, and the forger
has married him to Jaroslav's sister, Jaroslav being son of Vladimir
(the author of this fiction has learned a lesson from _Braveheart_ - why
let improbable or even impossible chronology stand in the way of the
story you want to tell).

taf

Gjest

Re: Russian wife of Earl Rognvald of Orkney?

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 des 2005 01:10:08

CP II; p. 474 gives him a dau. Ingigerd who m. Erik Slagbrellir. So
maybe there is a source other than the sagas?

Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
Kenny wrote:

Does anyone have any information on who was the first wife of Earl
Rognvald (died about 1046) of Orkney? Several sources name Arlogia of
Russia, daughter of Vladimir of Russia (not Vladimir I of Kiev, who
lived 958 to 1015). Does anyone know who this is?

She is invented.

I should add that Vladimir I of Kiev _is_ the intended father -
Rognevald spent his time in Russia at Jaroslav's court, and the forger
has married him to Jaroslav's sister, Jaroslav being son of Vladimir
(the author of this fiction has learned a lesson from _Braveheart_ - why
let improbable or even impossible chronology stand in the way of the
story you want to tell).

taf

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Russian wife of Earl Rognvald of Orkney?

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 05 des 2005 01:26:38

flcurry@mindspring.com wrote:
CP II; p. 474 gives him a dau. Ingigerd who m. Erik Slagbrellir. So
maybe there is a source other than the sagas?

What does CP cite for this?

taf

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Russian wife of Earl Rognvald of Orkney?

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 05 des 2005 01:52:56

flcurry@mindspring.com wrote:
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:

Kenny wrote:


Does anyone have any information on who was the first wife of Earl
Rognvald (died about 1046) of Orkney? Several sources name Arlogia of
Russia, daughter of Vladimir of Russia (not Vladimir I of Kiev, who
lived 958 to 1015). Does anyone know who this is?

She is invented.

I should add that Vladimir I of Kiev _is_ the intended father -
Rognevald spent his time in Russia at Jaroslav's court, and the forger
has married him to Jaroslav's sister, Jaroslav being son of Vladimir
(the author of this fiction has learned a lesson from _Braveheart_ - why
let improbable or even impossible chronology stand in the way of the
story you want to tell).

CP II; p. 474 gives him a dau. Ingigerd who m. Erik Slagbrellir. So
maybe there is a source other than the sagas?


As I brouse Google for this, it appears that the father-in-law of Eric
Slagbrellir is a different, later Rognvald, specifically Kali Kolsson
(given the name Rognvald by the King of Norway upon his being given the
Orkneys). He d. 1158, while the one we have been talking about,
Rognvald Brusisson, died a century earlier.

taf

Kenny

Re: Russian wife of Earl Rognvald of Orkney?

Legg inn av Kenny » 05 des 2005 16:40:03

I too have found no CONCRETE evidence of any wife. What interests me is
the fact that he was at the court of Jaroslav around the same time as
the two sons of Edmund Ironside. It is widely believed that Edmund the
Exile married one of Jaroslav's daughters, Agatha - there is no
concrete proof, though the arguments are more for than against, in my
opinion. Jaroslav married his three eldest daughters to the kings of
Norway, France and Hungary, around this time. I am interested in what
our Rognvald got up to during his Kievan sojourn. Did he marry?
Jaroslav is said to have FIVE daughters, can't remember what happened
to the other one.

Gjest

Re: Russian wife of Earl Rognvald of Orkney?

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 des 2005 17:27:02

In a message dated 12/5/2005 7:54:06 AM Pacific Standard Time,
macinnes@mail.ru writes:

It is widely believed that Edmund the
Exile married one of Jaroslav's daughters, Agatha - there is no
concrete proof, though the arguments are more for than against, in my
opinion.


Maybe you could share some of that argument here?

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