The various John Savages of Clifton, Cheshire, & their wives

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The various John Savages of Clifton, Cheshire, & their wives

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 des 2005 06:21:01

I have been trying to consolidate a lot of stray notes I had made on the
Savage family and have been finding several inconsistencies that I want to bring
up in hopes that others might help me struggle through to a correct
understanding of them.

George Wrottesley in The Genealogist, new series, vol. 15 (1899), p. 210,
showed the pedigree of John Savage's wife Matilda Swynnerton taken from a
1408-09 Stafford Assize Roll (9 Hen. IV). On p. 213 from a De Banco Roll dated
Easter 10 Hen. IV (1410) Wrottesley in an abstract mentioned John Savage and
his wife Alianora as plaintiffs. From the Chester Record Office
(DCH/E/282,283, & 284) John Savage of Clifton was listed with his wife Matilda on 8 Jun.
1414 and 10 Fe. 1414/5.

Where does the wife Alianora come from? The son of John Savage and Matilda
Swynnerton is said to have been married to Eleanor Brereton, but 1410 is an
extremely early appearance for him in a record as a plaintiff. I know he was
of age by 1422 when Henry V granted to "John Sauage junior" and James Legh
the wardship of "John del Dounes" with John Savage, knt., as surety. This
younger Savage is usually stated to have died 29 Jun. 1463 aged 53 but an
inspeximus of his IPM made on 14 Feb. 1550/1 for his Cheshire holdings states it was
originally taken at Chester on 8 Aug. 1464 and that the decedent died on 29
Jun. 1464 with no age given. His age is also absent from the inspeximus of
his father's IPM made on the same date but originally made on 2 Sep. 1450 at
Chester [see Chester Record Office DCH/E/297]. But back to my question ~ who
is the Alianora, wife of John Savage, in 1410? A completely different John
Savage?

******************************************************************************
*****************************

How did the Shipbrook inheritance come to the Savage family of Clifton?
Through the alleged second marriage of John Savage (d. 1450) or the alleged
marriage of John Savage (d. 1492)? Ormerod in Vol. 3, p. 132 wrote:

"Two years after this, ao 5 Hen. VI. (as appears by a note appended by
sir Peter Leycester to his account of Clifton), John le Vernay and other
feoffees gave to sir John Savage and Ellen his wife, the manors of Picton and
Shi(p)brook, and the advowson of Davenham, held in dower by Margaret widow of
sir Ralph Vernon; remainder after the death of Margaret to sir John Savage and
Ellen, and the heirs of sir John Savage for ever.
Sir Peter Leycester observes on this, 'so that Ellen the daughter and
heir of sir Raufe Vernon seems to be the second wife of this sir John Savage.'
He does not give any authority for the fact of Ellen being daughter of sir
Ralph, but deduces the Savages from the first marriage of sir John with Maud
Swinnarton. The Savages nevertheless quartered the coat of Vernon.
The Cheshire pedigrees differ from sir Peter, and state that sir
Richard Vernon, on whose death James Vernon recovered the barony, had a younger
brother sir Ralph, whose son Ralph had a daughter and heir Dorothy, wife of sir
John Savage, slain at Boulogne, great grandson of sir John Savage
abovementioned. This is most probably a groundless assertion, as sir Peter Leycester,
who drew the Savage pedigree from original evidences, found no wife for this
sir John Savage, which could scarcely have been the case, if Shipbrook had
been brought into the family by his marriage."

Mr. Richardson in his tome Plantagenet Ancestry favored the pedigree as
presented in the 1580 Cheshire Visitation. Can anyone clarify for me why that
deduction was made, since the only support I have found for it is the
visitation?

Paul Mackenzie

Re: The various John Savages of Clifton, Cheshire, & their w

Legg inn av Paul Mackenzie » 01 des 2005 06:56:04

ToddWhitesides@aol.com wrote:
I have been trying to consolidate a lot of stray notes I had made on the
Savage family and have been finding several inconsistencies that I want to bring
up in hopes that others might help me struggle through to a correct
understanding of them.

George Wrottesley in The Genealogist, new series, vol. 15 (1899), p. 210,
showed the pedigree of John Savage's wife Matilda Swynnerton taken from a
1408-09 Stafford Assize Roll (9 Hen. IV). On p. 213 from a De Banco Roll dated
Easter 10 Hen. IV (1410) Wrottesley in an abstract mentioned John Savage and
his wife Alianora as plaintiffs. From the Chester Record Office
(DCH/E/282,283, & 284) John Savage of Clifton was listed with his wife Matilda on 8 Jun.
1414 and 10 Fe. 1414/5.

Where does the wife Alianora come from? The son of John Savage and Matilda
Swynnerton is said to have been married to Eleanor Brereton, but 1410 is an
extremely early appearance for him in a record as a plaintiff.

Not necessarily. I have found a reference where an infant is listed as a
plaintiff in completely unrelated proceedings.

Regards

Paul

Sutliff

Re: The various John Savages of Clifton, Cheshire, & their w

Legg inn av Sutliff » 01 des 2005 08:37:33

I thought I had a quick and easy answer to this in that Alianor would have
referred to John Savage's second wife Ellen de Ursewick (as her third
husband), but that marriage did not take place until 1428 so that doesn't
help. I believe the wife of John Jr. was Elizabeth and nor Eleanor Brereton.
Ronny Bodine's book gives the next John a birthdate of 1422 (sourced) so
John Jr. must have been much more than 53 at his death in 1463. Perhaps he
had a prior wife to Elizabeth Brereton. To be extra technical 10 Henry IV
would be 30 Sep 1408 - 29 Sep 1409 so even a bit earlier.

As to the second part, numerous sources (like Earwaker) give the first wife
of John Savage as Dorothy Vernon (1 son, 5 daughters) as stated below. I
should note that this John had a second wife which resulted in a son named
George who was a in religious orders in Davenham. I would think this John's
wife would probably be easy to confirm or discount as I think he was the
John who was K. G. The Ralph Vernon of Shipbrook who died in 1407 left two
daughters Ellen (presumably the one mentioned below) and Agnes wife of Sir
William Atherton of Atherton d. 1414. However, neither of these adequately
explains how Shipbrook came to the Savages.

HS


<ToddWhitesides@aol.com> wrote in message
news:154.5e33bcf8.30bfe200@aol.com...
I have been trying to consolidate a lot of stray notes I had made on the
Savage family and have been finding several inconsistencies that I want to
bring
up in hopes that others might help me struggle through to a correct
understanding of them.

George Wrottesley in The Genealogist, new series, vol. 15 (1899), p. 210,
showed the pedigree of John Savage's wife Matilda Swynnerton taken from a
1408-09 Stafford Assize Roll (9 Hen. IV). On p. 213 from a De Banco Roll
dated
Easter 10 Hen. IV (1410) Wrottesley in an abstract mentioned John Savage
and
his wife Alianora as plaintiffs. From the Chester Record Office
(DCH/E/282,283, & 284) John Savage of Clifton was listed with his wife
Matilda on 8 Jun.
1414 and 10 Fe. 1414/5.

Where does the wife Alianora come from? The son of John Savage and
Matilda
Swynnerton is said to have been married to Eleanor Brereton, but 1410 is
an
extremely early appearance for him in a record as a plaintiff. I know he
was
of age by 1422 when Henry V granted to "John Sauage junior" and James
Legh
the wardship of "John del Dounes" with John Savage, knt., as surety.
This
younger Savage is usually stated to have died 29 Jun. 1463 aged 53 but an
inspeximus of his IPM made on 14 Feb. 1550/1 for his Cheshire holdings
states it was
originally taken at Chester on 8 Aug. 1464 and that the decedent died on
29
Jun. 1464 with no age given. His age is also absent from the inspeximus
of
his father's IPM made on the same date but originally made on 2 Sep. 1450
at
Chester [see Chester Record Office DCH/E/297]. But back to my question ~
who
is the Alianora, wife of John Savage, in 1410? A completely different
John
Savage?

******************************************************************************
*****************************

How did the Shipbrook inheritance come to the Savage family of Clifton?
Through the alleged second marriage of John Savage (d. 1450) or the
alleged
marriage of John Savage (d. 1492)? Ormerod in Vol. 3, p. 132 wrote:

"Two years after this, ao 5 Hen. VI. (as appears by a note appended
by
sir Peter Leycester to his account of Clifton), John le Vernay and other
feoffees gave to sir John Savage and Ellen his wife, the manors of Picton
and
Shi(p)brook, and the advowson of Davenham, held in dower by Margaret
widow of
sir Ralph Vernon; remainder after the death of Margaret to sir John
Savage and
Ellen, and the heirs of sir John Savage for ever.
Sir Peter Leycester observes on this, 'so that Ellen the daughter and
heir of sir Raufe Vernon seems to be the second wife of this sir John
Savage.'
He does not give any authority for the fact of Ellen being daughter of
sir
Ralph, but deduces the Savages from the first marriage of sir John with
Maud
Swinnarton. The Savages nevertheless quartered the coat of Vernon.
The Cheshire pedigrees differ from sir Peter, and state that sir
Richard Vernon, on whose death James Vernon recovered the barony, had a
younger
brother sir Ralph, whose son Ralph had a daughter and heir Dorothy, wife
of sir
John Savage, slain at Boulogne, great grandson of sir John Savage
abovementioned. This is most probably a groundless assertion, as sir
Peter Leycester,
who drew the Savage pedigree from original evidences, found no wife for
this
sir John Savage, which could scarcely have been the case, if Shipbrook
had
been brought into the family by his marriage."

Mr. Richardson in his tome Plantagenet Ancestry favored the pedigree as
presented in the 1580 Cheshire Visitation. Can anyone clarify for me why
that
deduction was made, since the only support I have found for it is the
visitation?

Gjest

Re: The various John Savages of Clifton, Cheshire, & their w

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 des 2005 20:48:03

In a message dated 11/30/05 9:20:28 PM Pacific Standard Time,
ToddWhitesides@aol.com writes:

<< Where does the wife Alianora come from? The son of John Savage and
Matilda
Swynnerton is said to have been married to Eleanor Brereton, but 1410 is an
extremely early appearance for him in a record as a plaintiff. I know he
was
of age by 1422 when Henry V granted to "John Sauage junior" and James Legh
the wardship of "John del Dounes" with John Savage, knt., as surety. This
younger Savage is usually stated to have died 29 Jun. 1463 aged 53 but an
inspeximus of his IPM made on 14 Feb. 1550/1 for his Cheshire holdings
states it was
originally taken at Chester on 8 Aug. 1464 and that the decedent died on 29
Jun. 1464 with no age given. His age is also absent from the inspeximus of
his father's IPM made on the same date but originally made on 2 Sep. 1450 at

Chester [see Chester Record Office DCH/E/297]. But back to my question ~
who
is the Alianora, wife of John Savage, in 1410? A completely different John
Savage? >>

If he were 53 in 1463, then he was b 1410. Would Henry V really grant a
wardship to a 12 year old boy? When his father was yet living?
Will Johnson

Sutliff

Re: The various John Savages of Clifton, Cheshire, & their w

Legg inn av Sutliff » 02 des 2005 22:21:26

Two corrections or ammendments to my previous post.

Most sources list the wife of John Savage the younger as Elizabeth Brereton
(Paget, Ormerod, BXP, etc.), but in some she is found as Eleanor so this may
well be the correct version for her. I would also note that the alleged
Elizabeth or Eleanor's maternal grandmother was Ellen de Egerton and one of
the daughters of John and his wife was named Ellen so perhaps she was indeed
named Eleanor rather than Elizabeth.

Secondly Earwaker does not identify Dorothy Vernon as wife of the next John,
so I am correcting myself. Ormerod questions that Dorothy Vernon even
existed.

Consequently my original post does not advance any answer for Todd's
question. Sorry!

HS


"Sutliff" <suthen@redshift.com> wrote in message
news:11ota1pi6pdmrf0@corp.supernews.com...
I thought I had a quick and easy answer to this in that Alianor would have
referred to John Savage's second wife Ellen de Ursewick (as her third
husband), but that marriage did not take place until 1428 so that doesn't
help. I believe the wife of John Jr. was Elizabeth and nor Eleanor
Brereton. Ronny Bodine's book gives the next John a birthdate of 1422
(sourced) so John Jr. must have been much more than 53 at his death in
1463. Perhaps he had a prior wife to Elizabeth Brereton. To be extra
technical 10 Henry IV would be 30 Sep 1408 - 29 Sep 1409 so even a bit
earlier.

As to the second part, numerous sources (like Earwaker) give the first
wife of John Savage as Dorothy Vernon (1 son, 5 daughters) as stated
below. I should note that this John had a second wife which resulted in a
son named George who was a in religious orders in Davenham. I would think
this John's wife would probably be easy to confirm or discount as I think
he was the John who was K. G. The Ralph Vernon of Shipbrook who died in
1407 left two daughters Ellen (presumably the one mentioned below) and
Agnes wife of Sir William Atherton of Atherton d. 1414. However, neither
of these adequately explains how Shipbrook came to the Savages.

HS


ToddWhitesides@aol.com> wrote in message
news:154.5e33bcf8.30bfe200@aol.com...
I have been trying to consolidate a lot of stray notes I had made on the
Savage family and have been finding several inconsistencies that I want
to bring
up in hopes that others might help me struggle through to a correct
understanding of them.

George Wrottesley in The Genealogist, new series, vol. 15 (1899), p. 210,
showed the pedigree of John Savage's wife Matilda Swynnerton taken from a
1408-09 Stafford Assize Roll (9 Hen. IV). On p. 213 from a De Banco Roll
dated
Easter 10 Hen. IV (1410) Wrottesley in an abstract mentioned John Savage
and
his wife Alianora as plaintiffs. From the Chester Record Office
(DCH/E/282,283, & 284) John Savage of Clifton was listed with his wife
Matilda on 8 Jun.
1414 and 10 Fe. 1414/5.

Where does the wife Alianora come from? The son of John Savage and
Matilda
Swynnerton is said to have been married to Eleanor Brereton, but 1410 is
an
extremely early appearance for him in a record as a plaintiff. I know
he was
of age by 1422 when Henry V granted to "John Sauage junior" and James
Legh
the wardship of "John del Dounes" with John Savage, knt., as surety. This
younger Savage is usually stated to have died 29 Jun. 1463 aged 53 but an
inspeximus of his IPM made on 14 Feb. 1550/1 for his Cheshire holdings
states it was
originally taken at Chester on 8 Aug. 1464 and that the decedent died on
29
Jun. 1464 with no age given. His age is also absent from the inspeximus
of
his father's IPM made on the same date but originally made on 2 Sep. 1450
at
Chester [see Chester Record Office DCH/E/297]. But back to my question ~
who
is the Alianora, wife of John Savage, in 1410? A completely different
John
Savage?

******************************************************************************
*****************************

How did the Shipbrook inheritance come to the Savage family of Clifton?
Through the alleged second marriage of John Savage (d. 1450) or the
alleged
marriage of John Savage (d. 1492)? Ormerod in Vol. 3, p. 132 wrote:

"Two years after this, ao 5 Hen. VI. (as appears by a note appended
by
sir Peter Leycester to his account of Clifton), John le Vernay and other
feoffees gave to sir John Savage and Ellen his wife, the manors of
Picton and
Shi(p)brook, and the advowson of Davenham, held in dower by Margaret
widow of
sir Ralph Vernon; remainder after the death of Margaret to sir John
Savage and
Ellen, and the heirs of sir John Savage for ever.
Sir Peter Leycester observes on this, 'so that Ellen the daughter
and
heir of sir Raufe Vernon seems to be the second wife of this sir John
Savage.'
He does not give any authority for the fact of Ellen being daughter of
sir
Ralph, but deduces the Savages from the first marriage of sir John with
Maud
Swinnarton. The Savages nevertheless quartered the coat of Vernon.
The Cheshire pedigrees differ from sir Peter, and state that sir
Richard Vernon, on whose death James Vernon recovered the barony, had a
younger
brother sir Ralph, whose son Ralph had a daughter and heir Dorothy, wife
of sir
John Savage, slain at Boulogne, great grandson of sir John Savage
abovementioned. This is most probably a groundless assertion, as sir
Peter Leycester,
who drew the Savage pedigree from original evidences, found no wife for
this
sir John Savage, which could scarcely have been the case, if Shipbrook
had
been brought into the family by his marriage."

Mr. Richardson in his tome Plantagenet Ancestry favored the pedigree as
presented in the 1580 Cheshire Visitation. Can anyone clarify for me why
that
deduction was made, since the only support I have found for it is the
visitation?



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