Ketel Descent..Reinfrid..Ivo

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butlergrt

Ketel Descent..Reinfrid..Ivo

Legg inn av butlergrt » 28 nov 2005 22:46:31

Good Afternoon All,
I believe that I can put together(based on records) a more full accurate
descent of the family of Ivo and fitzReinfrids, I will show (long and
hopefully not to confusing) that Reinfrid was (posit) Ivo or his brother
and that Gilbert fitz Reinfried was in fact William of Lancaster II son,
not his son-in-law. Gilbert fitzReinfrid and Helewise came later.
1. From what I have gound Ivo's full name was alledged"Guillaume Ive Raoul
de Taillebois", also known as the (left-hand brother)?. He was with WTC
and Percy both Ivo and Reinfrid died c. 1093/4 His son
2. Ethelred(Elftred) mar. Edgyth dau. of king Ethelred II. His sons;
3. a. Ketal 3rd Baron Kendal
b. Gilbert 2nd Baron Kendal was a brother not
son.(need to find notes on a charter)
Ketels sons.
4. Son 1. William de Lancaster I, mar. Gundred de Warrene
William is mentioned in various charters as witness as "William son of
Ketel", therefor probably not the son of Gilbert.
Son 2. Orm Lord of Allerdale
"Thomas le Fleming, for the health of the soul of his lady Helewise de
Lancastre, gave to the bretheren of Cockersand 2s. of rent out of his land
in Helsington. witness;Henry de Redman, Adam son of Roger, Henry Daunay,
William son of Ketel, William de Le,William de Waltone; Chartul of
Cockersand, 1015."
Williams' son.
5. William de Lancaster II, mar. Helewise de Stuteville. His sons;
1a. Gilbert
2a. Jordan
In a charter "William de Lancastre II grants to Gervase de Ainecurt L15
worth of land-80 for service of 3/4 fee in Natland and Botheford to the
brook of the gallows and to the bounds of Hoton and Stainton etc. witness:
Norman the sewer, Jordan the grantor's son, Gilbert the grantor's son,
Grunebald, Robert de Heriez, Anselm, Orm son of Tore, Roger de Crofd,
Roger son of Adam, Orm son of Bernu..if, Robert Mustel, William arson of
Warton, John the clerk, Richard the Chamberlain, William Pultyngton; orig.
D. at Sizergh "
What happens to Jordan I do not know.
6. Gilbert son of William de Lancastre becomes next baron of Kendal not
Gilbert fitzReinfried just yet.
7. Gilbert de Lancastre, Lord of Kendal, his son:
Warin marries Helewise dau. of Stuteville Lord of Knaresborough. His
daughter;
8. Helewise married Gilbert fitzReinfrid now Lord of Kendal in right of
his wife or of lack of male heirs and reverts back to Reinfrid possible
brother or same, is Ivo. 1 John, 1199 marriage of Helewise and Gilbert
fitzReinfrid


9. Henry II gave to William Marshall the custody of the heir of William de
Lancaster, see kirkby in Kendale.

I posit it must be Gilbert as Jordan is never mentioned again.


William Mareecallus(Marshall) confirms to Gervase de Eincourt his 89
tenements which William de Lancastre gave him as his charter testifies "to
hold of the said William de Lancastre etc..witness; Thomas son of
Gospatrick, Gilbert de Lancastre, Roger de Croft, Roger son of Adam Henry
son of Norman, Geoffrey de Prestun etc.;

It is recorded that Gilbert fitzReinfrid was Lord of kendal by right of
his wife (Hel)Hawise, and rose against King John in the magna carta time.
King John laid seige to Rochester and found Gilbert FitzReinfrids(Lord of
Kendal now, 1205) son William hiding there. Gilbert saved himself and his
son by supply several hostages and giving up the castles Merhull and
Kirkby to the King. as a result Gilbert fitzReinfrid and William de
Lancastre(his son) the 3rd were pardoned which was ratified by Henry III
first year of his reign. William de Lancaster was also High sheriff of
Lancashire from 18 Henry III until his death in 30 Henry III.
Many of these people that were witnesses were connect as Gospatric 1st
Earl of Dunbar's dau. married Duncan II whose son William fitzDuncan of
Skipton, Earl of Moray, mar. Alice de Meschines of Copeland whose dau.
Cecily, countess of Aumale Lady of Skipton and Copeland mar. Guillaum"le
Gros" count of Aumale(remember this for later)
Gospatrick end Earl of dunbar-Earl of Lothian mar. sybel of Bearly(Borely)
dau of Arkil, (Gos)Patrick, 5th Earl of Dunbar mar. Ada dau. of William
the Lion King of Scotland. Remember that Orm 2nd son of Ketel married
Gospatric 1st ealr of Northumberlands daughter and it is then no wonder
when William the Lion attacks Applby castle that Gospatarick son of Orm
surrenders it without a fight his cousins wife is the King of Scots
daughter and is fined 500 marks by King Henry II for this offense. Henry
II pipe roll for Everwicher(Yorkshire) 1176.
There is another charter confirming land in the founding of the abbey for
Calden in the Barony of Copeland by Cecily(above) and Beatrice de Molle
and confirmed by Adam son of Uchtred her Uncle, and confirmed by many
witnesses one being Ketel but is much to long to type as this is long
enough for now.
Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler

butlergrt

Re: Ketel Descent..Reinfrid..Ivo

Legg inn av butlergrt » 29 nov 2005 05:41:32

Good Evening,
After further consideration I believe it is possible that William and
Gunndred de Warrene had three sons;
William de Lancaster next Lord of Kendal
2. Jordan disappears see charter previous post
3. Gilbert de lancaster see Charters ditto above
who had Warin de lancaster who married Helewise daughter of
Stuteville,Lord of knaresborough who had:
Helwise who married Gilbert fitzReinfrid who THEN became Lord of Kendal
etc. all documented previous post.
Best Emmett

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Ketel Descent..Reinfrid..Ivo

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 03 des 2005 19:42:43

[some of this may have been rendered obsolete by later discussion, but I
am struggling to keep up with this thread. I think in the long run,
someone is going to have to take the bull by the horns and do a full
synthesis of the issue, as this thread has become so fragmented that in
different subthreads, we have had it argued that Ketel is too old for
the traditional reconstruction to be accurate, while in another he is
too young. Unfortunately, I don't have the time right now.]

butlergrt wrote:
1. From what I have gound Ivo's full name was alledged"Guillaume Ive Raoul
de Taillebois", also known as the (left-hand brother)?. He was with WTC
and Percy both Ivo and Reinfrid died c. 1093/4 His son


We have discussed the name issue - no Norman at this time had such an
array of names. Unfortunately, you find all kinds of things on the
internet, much of it wrong. As to being "He was with WTC and Percy both
Ivo and Reinfrid died c. 1093/4", this is clear as milk.


2. Ethelred(Elftred) mar. Edgyth dau. of king Ethelred II. His sons;

Ethelred and Elftred are different names, and both are distinct from
Ealdred. I don't know of a single instance where a Norman invader used
an Anglo-Saxon name for a son. Further, the fate of Ivo's holdings make
it highly unlikely that he had any sons. King AEthelred had no such
documented daughter, and the chronology just doesn't work for a daughter
of his to marry Ketel's father.

3. a. Ketal 3rd Baron Kendal
b. Gilbert 2nd Baron Kendal was a brother not
son.(need to find notes on a charter)
Ketels sons.
4. Son 1. William de Lancaster I, mar. Gundred de Warrene
William is mentioned in various charters as witness as "William son of
Ketel", therefor probably not the son of Gilbert.

You conclude that William de Lancaster was probably not son of Gilbert
because you find mention of a William son of Ketel in various charters,
but what makes you think William de Lancaster is identical to William
son of Ketel? Given the popularity of the name William, there must have
been any number of Williams around. Further, we have heard of a
document in which William de Lancaster calls Ketel his _avunculus_.
While it has been argued what this means, I think you would be hard
pressed to make a convincing argument that William de Lancaster would
have refered to his father in that manner, or that a scribe would have
misrecorded it.

Son 2. Orm Lord of Allerdale
"Thomas le Fleming, for the health of the soul of his lady Helewise de
Lancastre, gave to the bretheren of Cockersand 2s. of rent out of his land
in Helsington. witness;Henry de Redman, Adam son of Roger, Henry Daunay,
William son of Ketel, William de Le,William de Waltone; Chartul of
Cockersand, 1015."
Williams' son.
5. William de Lancaster II, mar. Helewise de Stuteville. His sons;
1a. Gilbert
2a. Jordan
In a charter "William de Lancastre II grants to Gervase de Ainecurt L15
worth of land-80 for service of 3/4 fee in Natland and Botheford to the
brook of the gallows and to the bounds of Hoton and Stainton etc. witness:
Norman the sewer, Jordan the grantor's son, Gilbert the grantor's son,

What is this charter? Does this really say "the grantor's son"? - that
would be unusual. What is the Latin? Likewise, on what basis is the
grantor identified as Wm II rather than Wm I.

What happens to Jordan I do not know.
6. Gilbert son of William de Lancastre becomes next baron of Kendal not
Gilbert fitzReinfried just yet.

What is the evidence that this generation existed?

7. Gilbert de Lancastre, Lord of Kendal, his son:
Warin marries Helewise dau. of Stuteville Lord of Knaresborough. His
daughter;

You have the grandfather and the grandson both married to Helewise de
Stuteville - that is problematic. Likewise, what is your evidence for
this Warin?

You say it is based on "documents" but if you are going to completely
rewrite the accepted de Lancaster pedigree, you really need to lay out
the documents step-by-step and explain in detail why your version is
preferable to the accepted version. We are not talking about a small
change here - you are only leaving one established relationship intact
over 6 generations (in your reconstruction, 4 in the traditional) - that
requires explaining.

8. Helewise married Gilbert fitzReinfrid now Lord of Kendal in right of
his wife or of lack of male heirs and reverts back to Reinfrid possible
brother or same, is Ivo.

You keep saying this, but I have seen nothing to suggest a connection
between Ivo and Reinfrid - among other things, your reconstruction would
make Reinfrid 4 generations younger than Ivo.

taf

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