Alice Cornwall +1416 wife of Thomas Charlton

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Alice Cornwall +1416 wife of Thomas Charlton

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 nov 2005 20:05:12

According to HoP, Alice Cornwall was wife successively to Henry Frowyk,
MP, of South Mimms, Herts (d 1386) and then to Thomas Charlton, MP (d
1410). The Frowyk stemma in Middlesex Pedigrees (Harl. Soc.) refers to
her father as John Cornwall.

Additionally, HoP (sub Charlton) states that she was "great
granddaughters and coheir of the affluent London goldsmith, Henry
Gloucester (d 1332/3). As usual, it is difficult to determine which
reference relates to this assertion, although it is probably "Pedigrees
from the Plea Rolls", 169. I don't have access to my paper at the
moment, so am skating on thin ice, but I have a typed note from earlier
this year in which I state (without references) that her father was
John Cornwall, son of Richard Cornwall and Joan Gloucester, and that
her mother was Elizabeth - apologies for presenting this without
sources immediately available.

The Calendar of Letter Books of the City of London tell us that Henry
de Gloucester was an Alderman in 1312. Extra biographical information
is given in "Two Early London Subsidy Rolls", which states that he held
a shop in the Goldsmithery in 1305, was son of William and Willelma,
owned shops and rents in St Vedast Foster and St Michael, and was
alderman for Lime Street ward from 1300 to 1318. It also suggests that
his father was William de Gloucester, goldsmith ff 1252.

This would give a pedigree thus:

1. William de Gloucester [?goldsmith of London]; married Willelma.
Issue:

2. Henry de Gloucester, alderman and goldsmith of London; died c1332;
left a will; married [Margaret - apologies, source not currently to
hand]; issue:

3. Joan de Gloucester, daughter and heir; married Richard de Cornwall.
Issue:

4. John de Cornwall, married Elizabeth. Issue:

5. Alice de Cornwall, daughter and heir; died 1416; married firstly
Henry Frowyk; married secondly Thomas Charlton; issue by both
marriages.

*******

I shall hunt up the outstanding references and post them as soon as I
am able.

MAR

Gjest

Re: Alice Cornwall +1416 wife of Thomas Charlton

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 nov 2005 20:40:36

mjcar@btinternet.com schrieb:

1. William de Gloucester [?goldsmith of London]; married Willelma.
Issue:

2. Henry de Gloucester, alderman and goldsmith of London; died c1332;

The London Letter Books also contain this reference from 1299:

"Lease by Sir Thomas de Basinges to Henry de Gloucester his nephew
[nepotem] of the whole of his rent within the City from Michaelmas,
anno 27 Edward I, until the end of the said Henry's life; paying to the
grantor or his assigns the yearly sum of L40 of silver by quarterly
instalments; the lessee pays down the sum of L80 for the first two
years. Dated London, Monday the Feast of the Exaltation of Holy Cross
(14 September) the year aforesaid".

Thus, perhaps Henry de Gloucester's mother Willelma was sister of Sir
Thomas de Basinges.

Gjest

Re: Alice Cornwall +1416 wife of Thomas Charlton

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 nov 2005 20:43:36

1. William de Gloucester [?goldsmith of London]; married Willelma.
Issue:

2. Henry de Gloucester, alderman and goldsmith of London; died c1332

This is confirmed as per the following from British History Online:

"William of Gloucester, in his will dating probably from the late 13th
century, left a quit-rent of £2 in Honey Lane to his wife Willelma for
life, with remainder to his son Henry, but the latter mentioned no such
rent in his will of 1332."

From: 'All Hallows Honey Lane 11/2', Historical gazetteer of London
before the Great Fire: Cheapside; parishes of All Hallows Honey Lane,
St Martin Pomary, St Mary le Bow, St Mary Colechurch and St Pancras
Soper Lane (1987), pp. 15-9.

URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk

Gjest

Re: Alice Cornwall +1416 wife of Thomas Charlton

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 nov 2005 20:46:27

m...@btinternet.com schrieb:

1. William de Gloucester [?goldsmith of London]; married Willelma.
Issue:

2. Henry de Gloucester, alderman and goldsmith of London; died c1332

Apparently, he also had a son Thomas:

"Henry de Gloucestre, goldsmith and alderman (1332 Will), omits [from
his will] his son Thomas, referred to 1335 Pat and elsewhere."

From: 'Introduction chapter V: the subsidies and the London population:
2: tax-rolls and population', Two Early London Subsidy Rolls (1951),
pp. 71-81.

URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk

Gjest

Re: Alice Cornwall +1416 wife of Thomas Charlton

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 nov 2005 20:58:24

mjcar@btinternet.com schrieb:

Perhaps Henry de Gloucester's mother Willelma was sister of Sir
Thomas de Basinges.

This is clarified by VCH London Vol 1 sub St Helen's, Bishopsgate:

"These grants were in all probability made in aid of the rebuilding of
the church, the expense of which had largely been defrayed by two
brothers, Salomon and Thomas Basing, the latter bequeathing also to its
maintenance by will enrolled in 1300 some rents in the parish of St.
Bartholomew the Little and elsewhere. Several of the Basings became
nuns of St. Helen's, one indeed was elected prioress in 1269; this may
account in part for the benefactions of the family, which altogether
must have been extensive: William, the sheriff of 1308, is said by Stow
to have been reputed a founder, and Henry de Gloucestre, grandson (sic)
of Thomas, by will dated 1332 established there a chantry of two
chaplains which he endowed with an income of 11 marks of silver.

"Dyonisia de Gloucestre, a nun of St. Helen's, received from her uncle,
Thomas Basing, a quit-rent in the parish of St. Botolph Billingsgate,
for life; Elizabeth, daughter of Henry de Gloucestre, was also a nun
there".

Gjest

Re: Alice Cornwall +1416 wife of Thomas Charlton

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 nov 2005 21:10:15

1. William de Gloucester [?goldsmith of London]; married Willelma.
Issue:

2. Henry de Gloucester, alderman and goldsmith of London; died c1332

Apparently, he also had a son Thomas:

to whom the following may relate:

Pleas held before the Mayor and Chamberlain on Wednesday the morrow of
St Peter ad Vincula [1 Aug.] Ao 14 Edw. III [1340]
Matilda, widow of Thomas de Gloucestre, William de Harewell and John de
Litlington, executors of the said Thomas, claimed the sum of 53s 4d
from John Priour as due to the estate of the deceased. The defendant
denied the liability, and when he came prepared to make his law, the
executors failed to appear. Judgment for the defendant.

From: 'Roll A 3: 1338-41', Calendar of the plea and memoranda rolls of
the city of London: volume 1: 1323-1364

URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk

Gjest

Re: Alice Cornwall +1416 wife of Thomas Charlton

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 nov 2005 21:16:18

mjcar@btinternet.com schrieb:

1. William de Gloucester [?goldsmith of London]; married Willelma.
Issue:

2. Henry de Gloucester, alderman and goldsmith of London; died c1332

Apparently, he also had a son Thomas, to whom the following may relate:

Matilda, widow of Thomas de Gloucestre, William de Harewell and John de
Litlington, executors of the said Thomas, claimed the sum of 53s 4d
from John Priour as due to the estate of the deceased. The defendant
denied the liability, and when he came prepared to make his law, the
executors failed to appear. Judgment for the defendant.

As indeed the same source confirms:

Friday before the Feast of the Nativity of St John the Baptist [24
June] Ao 15 Edw. III [1341]
Proceedings by Matilda, widow of Thomas, son of Henry de Gloucestre,
and John de Litlyngton, chandler, and William de Harewelle, her
co-executors, for the recovery of £22 due on a bond from John de
Bedeford, skinner, John de Northburgh, draper, William Baynard,
cordwainer, and William Passefeld, spurrier. The above William and
William paid their debts out of court. Execution was granted against
John de Bedeford for 17s 9d in arrears, and six white budge furs
(furure de bugeto albo) belonging to him were valued at 20s. The
executors accepted the furs and returned the balance of 2s 3d to him.
In the case of John de Northburgh, a moiety of three shops belonging to
him in the parish of All Hallows, Berkyngcherche, of an annual value of
14s, was handed over to the executors as a free tenement until they had
levied from the rents thereof the arrears of 3 marks due to them.

Gjest

Re: Alice Cornwall +1416 wife of Thomas Charlton

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 nov 2005 21:44:14

Dear Michael,

these people appear also in the book of the Ancestry of Mary Isaac
(being the latter's ancestors via the Frowick marriage). There is a
copy at the SoG (and I think John Brandon mentioned it as being online
at the BYU library?); however, you've already found all the ancestry it
contains, and in fact I think it omits the generation of John de
Cornwall and Elizabeth- thought I'd pass it on anyway!

Best,

Matthew

Gjest

Re: Alice Cornwall +1416 wife of Thomas Charlton

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 nov 2005 21:56:32

mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk schrieb:

Dear Michael,

these people appear also in the book of the Ancestry of Mary Isaac
(being the latter's ancestors via the Frowick marriage). There is a
copy at the SoG (and I think John Brandon mentioned it as being online
at the BYU library?); however, you've already found all the ancestry it
contains, and in fact I think it omits the generation of John de
Cornwall and Elizabeth- thought I'd pass it on anyway!

Best,

Matthew

Super - thanks Matthew. Either I'm on the right track, or it's folie a
deux. For Roskell to be right, there have to be two generations
between Alice de Cornwall and Henry de Gloucester - but then, he is not
infallible. I will dig out my references as soon as I can.

Cheers, Michael

Gjest

Re: Alice Cornwall +1416 wife of Thomas Charlton

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 nov 2005 04:02:43

I discussed this Cornwall family with Rosie Bevan back in 2001, and she
wrote the following to me:

"I have seen the Cornwall name alternately described as Cornhill (VCH
M'sex under Willesden). I would think it extremely unlikely that it
was the same family as that descended from King John. At that time
they were way too high up the social scale to marry into a London
goldsmith family.

" ' The Cornhills, of whom William was described in 1305 as of East
Twyford, were dealing in land there in 1294 [Cal. Close, 1302-7].
Richard of Cornhill acquired a messuage, land and rent in 1306 from
William de Kele which he settled in 1325. Richard was succeeded by his
son John (fl. 1351-9) and granddaughter Alice, who married successively
Henry Frowyk and Thomas Charlton.' "

The quote is apparently from the VCH reference above. I have not
checked it, but it is at British History Online, which the cyber police
will not allow me to access tonight.

The Cornhill family were active and successful in London from the early
1100's and they intermarried with some of the Norman aristocracy.
Walter Besant in his "Early London; Prehistoric Roman, Saxon and Norman
London" has a few pages about them (pp 345-7), but from tht brief
notice I cannot tie them the Cornhill family of which Alice was a
member.

Mardi

Gjest

Re: Alice Cornwall +1416 wife of Thomas Charlton

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 nov 2005 09:48:26

mardicar@yahoo.com schrieb:

I discussed this Cornwall family with Rosie Bevan back in 2001, and she
wrote the following to me:

Mardi

Many thanks - I should have guessed that you and Rosie had gone before.
I particularly appreciate the confirmation of the Richard - John -
Alice links.

Best wishes

Michael

Gjest

Re: Alice Cornwall +1416 wife of Thomas Charlton

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 nov 2005 13:20:32

From the various London records at British History Online, I see that
an earlier 'de Cornhill' stemma may be drafted:



1. Roger, 'nephew of Hubert', Sheriff of London, 1125; said by Round to
be father of:

2a. Gervase fitz Roger 'de Cornhill', sheriff and justiciar of London;
died c1183; said to be nephew of 'William fitz Herlewin'; also said to
be uncle of the younger Jordan de Cornhill.

2b. Jordan de Cornhill, father of:

3. Jordan de Cornhill, said to be nephew of Gervase; ff 1200; married
Sibilla. Issue:

4a. Agnes de Cornhill

4b. Beatrice de Cornhill

4c. Henry de Cornhill

4d. Michael de Cornhill

4e. Richard de Cornhill

4f. William de Cornhill; possibly to be identified with the one of this
name, draper of St Mary-le-Bow, father of Stephen de Cornhill who ff
1261, was Sheriff in 1284, and died 1294/5

MAR

Gjest

Re: Alice Cornwall +1416 wife of Thomas Charlton

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 nov 2005 13:43:16

mjcar@btinternet.com schrieb:

From the various London records at British History Online, I see that
an earlier 'de Cornhill' stemma may be drafted:


1. Roger, 'nephew of Hubert', Sheriff of London, 1125; said by Round to
be father of:

2a. Gervase fitz Roger 'de Cornhill', sheriff and justiciar of London;
died c1183; said to be nephew of 'William fitz Herlewin'; also said to
be uncle of the younger Jordan de Cornhill.

2b. Jordan de Cornhill, father of:

3. Jordan de Cornhill, said to be nephew of Gervase; ff 1200; married
Sibilla. Issue:

This link is most probably incorrect; I understand that Keats-Rohan has
some details of Gervase de Cornhill, including a statement that he took
his surname as a result of marrying an heiress. If Jordan de Cornhill
was Gervase's nephew, then (a) Jordan may well have been a blood
relative of Gervase's de Cornhill wife rather than of Gervase; and (b)
it may be Jordan the elder rather than Jordan the younger who is
intended.

Clearly I need to do more work on this before it is sufficiently
polished - apologies for the very rough initial draft and the tedious
follow-up posts as I revise my position from a distance.

MAR

Gjest

Re: Alice Cornwall +1416 wife of Thomas Charlton

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 nov 2005 18:21:38

Keats-Rohan in DD p. 411

de Cornhill, Gervaise

Son of Roger the nephew of Hubert, the queen's chamberlaion (RRAN ii,
1653). Justice of London before 1147. Sheriff of London 1160/1. He
took his name from the property of his wife Agnes, daughter of Edward
of Cornhill and Godleva. Father of Henry, Rainald, and Ralph. See
Round, "Geoffrey de Mandeville", App. E.

d Cornhill, Jordan Nepos Gervasii

Nephew of Gervaise of Cornhill, with whom he is associated in documents
from c. 1129 onwards. In 1165 he owed the king money on account of his
marriage without permission to the widow of Erneis Rufus of London.

Gjest

Re: Alice Cornwall +1416 wife of Thomas Charlton

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 nov 2005 18:50:00

mardicar@yahoo.com schrieb:

Keats-Rohan in DD p. 411

de Cornhill, Gervaise

Son of Roger the nephew of Hubert, the queen's chamberlaion (RRAN ii,
1653). Justice of London before 1147. Sheriff of London 1160/1. He
took his name from the property of his wife Agnes, daughter of Edward
of Cornhill and Godleva. Father of Henry, Rainald, and Ralph. See
Round, "Geoffrey de Mandeville", App. E.

d Cornhill, Jordan Nepos Gervasii

Nephew of Gervaise of Cornhill, with whom he is associated in documents
from c. 1129 onwards. In 1165 he owed the king money on account of his
marriage without permission to the widow of Erneis Rufus of London.

Thanks again, Mardi. Chronologically, it must be the elder Jordan who
is called Gervase's nephew. I wonder why both uncle and nephew were
called "de Cornhill"? Presumably Agnes, Gervase's wife, was an
heiress, in which case she would have been without brothers. And she
and Gervase clearly had children, so Jordan is unlikely to have taken
his surname from having also succeeded to the property.

Cheers, Michael

alden@mindspring.com

Re: Alice Cornwall +1416 wife of Thomas Charlton

Legg inn av alden@mindspring.com » 30 nov 2005 00:27:19

See Round, Geoffrey de Mandeville, p 310 for his provisional view on
this family:


1. Ingenolda=Roger "nepos Huberti" the queen's chamberlain, joint
sheriff 1125
2.Gervase (nephew to Ralph fitz Herlwin) joint sheriff of London
1155-56= Agnes de Cornhill dau. Edward de Cornhill
3.Henry de Cornhill, sheriff of Kent, London and Surrey=Alice
de Courcy
4. Joan de Cornhill=Hugh de Nevill, Forester of England
3.Reginald de Cornhill, sheriff of Kent
4.Reginald de Cornhill, junior
3.Ralph de Cornhill d. c.1200=Alice Hastings afterwards
wife of Godfrey de Louvain in 1200
2.Alan brother of Gervase
3.Roger fitz Alan

Doug Smith

Gjest

Re: Alice Cornwall +1416 wife of Thomas Charlton

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 nov 2005 17:52:02

alden@mindspring.com schrieb:

See Round, Geoffrey de Mandeville, p 310 for his provisional view on
this family:


1. Ingenolda=Roger "nepos Huberti" the queen's chamberlain, joint
sheriff 1125
2.Gervase (nephew to Ralph fitz Herlwin) joint sheriff of London
1155-56= Agnes de Cornhill dau. Edward de Cornhill
3.Henry de Cornhill, sheriff of Kent, London and Surrey=Alice
de Courcy
4. Joan de Cornhill=Hugh de Nevill, Forester of England
3.Reginald de Cornhill, sheriff of Kent
4.Reginald de Cornhill, junior
3.Ralph de Cornhill d. c.1200=Alice Hastings afterwards
wife of Godfrey de Louvain in 1200
2.Alan brother of Gervase
3.Roger fitz Alan

Doug Smith

Thanks Doug - I think there's some related material in the Archives,
which I should have picked up earlier - helps knowing that "de
Cornwall" is apparently a corruption of the earlier "de Cornhill".

Cheers

Michael

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