Good Afaternoon all,
1.Reinfrid did exist, he was a companion of WTC.
2.He became a monk of Eversham when he decided to reconstitute the
abandoned Abbey at Whiteby.
3. Whiteby originally was held by Hugh d'Abrinci, soon thereafter by
William Percy who c. 1078 granted it to Reinfrid a fellow soldier along
with 2 carcutes of land and later 4 carcutes of land at Sourby(?) althou
it was plagued with robbers and pirates.
Register of the Abbey of Whiteby
While Stirnet lists a Reinfrid de Bruere who married an Aline (dsp 1211)
Ralph de Bruere
Gilbert fitz Reinfrid
the British History sight at UK. org also listed a William fitzReinfrid
son of Roger, it mentions Roger as a Cumbrian Baron and Gilbert of course
as Baron of Kendal.
W.Farrer, Lancashire pipe rolls and Early Lanc. Charters(Liverpool 1902)
pp 395-402
idem Barony of Kendal ed. J.F. Curwen, Cumberland and Westmoreland
Antiquaries and Archeo Soc. Rec. Ser. IV-VII pp XIII 1,2,4,etc.
In the Records of Kendale Vol I by William Farrer Litt.D.
Of Helsingetune. Dom. Book[2c.] 1066, Gilmichael. The vill compomprised
the hamlets of Braethelaw[now Bradley fields),
Cunswick,Tranthwaite,Routheworth,Sizergh, part of Brigsteer and the
desmesne of Greenriggs.
It lists transactions of Gillem de Lancastre quite claims to Gervse de
Haencourt with witnesses,
next; Gilbert fitzReinfrid has the custody of the land and heir of Olivier
de Aencourt:r.Liett. Pat., 45b
next; The son or daughter and heir of Ralph de Ayencurt, is a hostage for
Gilbert fitzReinfeyd; R. Chart.;221b
next; Gilbert son of Roger fitz Reinfred confirms to Gervase de Aincurt
the land which William de Lancastre, father of Helewise, the grantors
wife, gave to him, namely Natalaund, Botheelford, Sisrahelheres, Winderes
and the other Winderes the moeity of Sockebaret which Waldef held etc....
Witnesses: Henry[de Redman] the seneschal, Robert de Soukey,James de
Flaund, Gilbert de Lancastre, Adam dean of Lonsdale, Thomas son of
Gospatric, Robert de Bdthom,Roger de Burton, Gamel the regarder; Reg of D.
at Levens,ii,f.6z
next; another charater of Gilbert granted to the same Gervase, witnessed
by Roger fitz Reinfrid;ib.,f,8t
next-Thomas the Fleming ,for the health of the soul of his lady Helewise
de Lancastre, gave to the brethern of Cockersand 2s. of rent out of his
land in Helsington. Witnesses: Henry de Redman, Adam son of Roger, Henry
Daunay, William son of Ketel, William de Le, Willian de Waltone; Chartul.
of Cockersand,1015.
I list this because of it's interest (1.) it talks of the Abbey of
Cockersand that Theobold Walter gave to the Abbey c. 1196 that he held in
fee and the Reinfrid that started all of this. (2.) because it talks of
William son of Ketel.
Reinfrid has another interesting turn, but the dates do not match, but at
the Castle of Holme Spinney situated about a mile east of Barnby church in
the parish of Sutton; was held at the domesday in 1086 of Gilbert de Gant
and passed until Simon St. Liz III married Alice de Gant. Simon St Liz
gave it to Elyas Foliat who built a wooden Motte and Bailey c 1155 and
replaced 1166 with one of stone. The ownership was given to Roger
fiztReinfrid c. 1167, but possesion was disputed over several generations.
Margorie Foliat married Wischardt Ledet who was one of the Barons that
opposed King John( I checked, it is true) Their daughter Christina Ledet
made a successful appeal and it was agreed to settle the appeal by trial
of champions in 1225. William, son of Roger fitzReinfrid represented his
father and Gaufried Le Cruir was the other champion It was settled in
Christians favor as her granddaughters were the last to live there in
1396.
I cannot find much on Wischardt but christinas grand daughters both
married Latimers. All of the Reinfrid people that I have been able to find
data on are dead c 1222 including marjorie Foliat.
Based on the fact that Reinfrid, Prior of Whiteby Abbey, in 1078 and dead
by 1087, a timber fell on his head smashing it, when William Percy's
Brother becomes 2nd abbott. Roger fitzReinfried should be fairly old, I
know Celtic Catholicism allowed monks, priests, and bishops to be married
but Roman Catholicism did not and was changing by c 1120 if Reinfried is
dead by 1087 as recorded, and the birth dates for Roger are b.c. 1114 d.
c. 1198 as most contemporary places give it to fit their patterns it
doesn't work. It makes Roger about 120, sure.... his son Gilbert is
represented by most places as b.c. 1162-d.c. before 5/5/1220, battling as
a champion at 65 or so, possible, doubtful, besides he is supposed to be
dead for 5 years already. There may be either another generation
completely left out of the records on several lines or alot of data has
been made more recent than what it really was.
The Motte and Baily and stone fortress, now gone is considered protected
by the British government.
Barnby-in-Willows .org.uk
So Reinfrid did exist and here is another son previously unmentioned
"William fritzReinfrid".
Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler
Reinfrid Update.. Most Interesting
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Gjest
Re: Reinfrid Update.. Most Interesting
butlergrt schrieb:
I presume this should refer to _Whitby_ Abbey?
Actually, Christian Ledet's heirs were her great granddaughters, the
two daughters of her grandson Walter Ledet (in turn son of Guiscard
Ledet, son of Christian's first marriage to Henry de Braybroc). Given
that the two coheiresses are mentioned in Christian's IPM of 1271, I
think you reference to their being alive in 1396 must be incorrect (the
younger would then have been about 140!) - do you mean 1296?
Christian's mother, Margery Foliot, is usually said to be daughter of
Richard Foliot by Margery Reincourt (or Reinbuecourt, per VCH).
Michael Miller can no doubt add more; I would need to do some digging
through my files to locate my sources. But are you suggesting that
Christian Ledet is somehow related to or descended from the collection
of Reinfrids and Fitz Reinfrids you cite? Wouldn't her being the
alleged opponent of your posited Reinfrid heir in 1226 militate against
this?
I think I'm coming down with taf's headache...
MAR
2.He became a monk of Eversham when he decided to reconstitute the
abandoned Abbey at Whiteby.
3. Whiteby originally was held by Hugh d'Abrinci, soon thereafter by
William Percy who c. 1078 granted it to Reinfrid a fellow soldier along
with 2 carcutes of land and later 4 carcutes of land at Sourby(?) althou
it was plagued with robbers and pirates.
Register of the Abbey of Whiteby
I presume this should refer to _Whitby_ Abbey?
Margorie Foliat married Wischardt Ledet who was one of the Barons that
opposed King John( I checked, it is true) Their daughter Christina Ledet
made a successful appeal and it was agreed to settle the appeal by trial
of champions in 1225. William, son of Roger fitzReinfrid represented his
father and Gaufried Le Cruir was the other champion It was settled in
Christians favor as her granddaughters were the last to live there in
1396. I cannot find much on Wischardt but christinas grand daughters both
married Latimers.
Actually, Christian Ledet's heirs were her great granddaughters, the
two daughters of her grandson Walter Ledet (in turn son of Guiscard
Ledet, son of Christian's first marriage to Henry de Braybroc). Given
that the two coheiresses are mentioned in Christian's IPM of 1271, I
think you reference to their being alive in 1396 must be incorrect (the
younger would then have been about 140!) - do you mean 1296?
Christian's mother, Margery Foliot, is usually said to be daughter of
Richard Foliot by Margery Reincourt (or Reinbuecourt, per VCH).
Michael Miller can no doubt add more; I would need to do some digging
through my files to locate my sources. But are you suggesting that
Christian Ledet is somehow related to or descended from the collection
of Reinfrids and Fitz Reinfrids you cite? Wouldn't her being the
alleged opponent of your posited Reinfrid heir in 1226 militate against
this?
[further snip]
I think I'm coming down with taf's headache...
MAR
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Reinfrid Update.. Most Interesting
butlergrt wrote:
What Reinfrid? The father of Roger? You show below this could not be
the case. Reinfrid was just a name, like William or Robert or Gilbert,
and it takes more than finding another occurance of the same name to
make a pedigree. What evidence do you have that this Reinfrid has any
relationship whatsoever to a man whose father was named Reinfrid, who
died 120 years later?
If this is supposed to be a pedigree, it is flawed, since we know
Gilbert was son of Roger. If not, what makes you think this Reinfrid is
in any way related to Gilbert - certainly you wouldn't expect Gilbert's
grandfather to have died this late (or is this his wife who died? it
really doesn't matter - the point's the same.)
Note here we have what is almost certainly his authentic pedigree,
rather than the Theobald Walter claim.
Again, it is the William son of Ketel we have been discussing, who would
have been at least two generations before the grantor, or some other
William, son of some other Ketel?
You need to replace this with "There is another interesting turn
involving someone named Reinfrid. That being said, I don't see any
Reinfrid int he account below, other than the father of Roger
was held at the domesday in 1086 of Gilbert de Gant
Again, on what basis are you trying to connect Roger Fitz Reinfrid with
this priest named Reinfrid - just the name is not enough.
Or you are trying to force a connection based on nothing but the father
of Roger sharing the same given name as this earlier priest, when no
such connection existed.
Keats-Rohan reporst a Rainfrid de Bretteville, who was a Domesday
tennant of Ivo. He left an heir Alfred who was ancestor of the Glentham
family. (And before you jump to conclusions, The father of Roger would
be the same generation as William de Lancaster I, supposed to be
grandson of Ivo, so this cannot very easily be Roger's father.
Likewise, she reports that Roger filius Rainfridi was brother of Walter
de Coutances, Archbishop of Rouen, although the basis for this is
unclear - again, hardly a batch of nobodies.
taf
Good Afaternoon all,
1.Reinfrid did exist, he was a companion of WTC.
What Reinfrid? The father of Roger? You show below this could not be
the case. Reinfrid was just a name, like William or Robert or Gilbert,
and it takes more than finding another occurance of the same name to
make a pedigree. What evidence do you have that this Reinfrid has any
relationship whatsoever to a man whose father was named Reinfrid, who
died 120 years later?
While Stirnet lists a Reinfrid de Bruere who married an Aline (dsp 1211)
Ralph de Bruere
Gilbert fitz Reinfrid
If this is supposed to be a pedigree, it is flawed, since we know
Gilbert was son of Roger. If not, what makes you think this Reinfrid is
in any way related to Gilbert - certainly you wouldn't expect Gilbert's
grandfather to have died this late (or is this his wife who died? it
really doesn't matter - the point's the same.)
next; Gilbert son of Roger fitz Reinfred confirms to Gervase de Aincurt
the land which William de Lancastre, father of Helewise, the grantors
wife, gave to him, namely Natalaund, Botheelford, Sisrahelheres, Winderes
Note here we have what is almost certainly his authentic pedigree,
rather than the Theobald Walter claim.
and the other Winderes the moeity of Sockebaret which Waldef held etc....
Witnesses: Henry[de Redman] the seneschal, Robert de Soukey,James de
Flaund, Gilbert de Lancastre, Adam dean of Lonsdale, Thomas son of
Gospatric, Robert de Bdthom,Roger de Burton, Gamel the regarder; Reg of D.
at Levens,ii,f.6z
next; another charater of Gilbert granted to the same Gervase, witnessed
by Roger fitz Reinfrid;ib.,f,8t
next-Thomas the Fleming ,for the health of the soul of his lady Helewise
de Lancastre, gave to the brethern of Cockersand 2s. of rent out of his
land in Helsington. Witnesses: Henry de Redman, Adam son of Roger, Henry
Daunay, William son of Ketel, William de Le, Willian de Waltone; Chartul.
of Cockersand,1015.
I list this because of it's interest (1.) it talks of the Abbey of
Cockersand that Theobold Walter gave to the Abbey c. 1196 that he held in
fee and the Reinfrid that started all of this. (2.) because it talks of
William son of Ketel.
Again, it is the William son of Ketel we have been discussing, who would
have been at least two generations before the grantor, or some other
William, son of some other Ketel?
Reinfrid has another interesting turn, but the dates do not match, but at
the Castle of Holme Spinney situated about a mile east of Barnby church in
the parish of Sutton;
You need to replace this with "There is another interesting turn
involving someone named Reinfrid. That being said, I don't see any
Reinfrid int he account below, other than the father of Roger
was held at the domesday in 1086 of Gilbert de Gant
and passed until Simon St. Liz III married Alice de Gant. Simon St Liz
gave it to Elyas Foliat who built a wooden Motte and Bailey c 1155 and
replaced 1166 with one of stone. The ownership was given to Roger
fiztReinfrid c. 1167, but possesion was disputed over several generations.
Margorie Foliat married Wischardt Ledet who was one of the Barons that
opposed King John( I checked, it is true) Their daughter Christina Ledet
made a successful appeal and it was agreed to settle the appeal by trial
of champions in 1225. William, son of Roger fitzReinfrid represented his
father and Gaufried Le Cruir was the other champion It was settled in
Christians favor as her granddaughters were the last to live there in
1396.
I cannot find much on Wischardt but christinas grand daughters both
married Latimers. All of the Reinfrid people that I have been able to find
data on are dead c 1222 including marjorie Foliat.
Based on the fact that Reinfrid, Prior of Whiteby Abbey, in 1078 and dead
by 1087, a timber fell on his head smashing it, when William Percy's
Brother becomes 2nd abbott. Roger fitzReinfried should be fairly old,
Again, on what basis are you trying to connect Roger Fitz Reinfrid with
this priest named Reinfrid - just the name is not enough.
There may be either another generation
completely left out of the records on several lines or alot of data has
been made more recent than what it really was.
Or you are trying to force a connection based on nothing but the father
of Roger sharing the same given name as this earlier priest, when no
such connection existed.
Keats-Rohan reporst a Rainfrid de Bretteville, who was a Domesday
tennant of Ivo. He left an heir Alfred who was ancestor of the Glentham
family. (And before you jump to conclusions, The father of Roger would
be the same generation as William de Lancaster I, supposed to be
grandson of Ivo, so this cannot very easily be Roger's father.
Likewise, she reports that Roger filius Rainfridi was brother of Walter
de Coutances, Archbishop of Rouen, although the basis for this is
unclear - again, hardly a batch of nobodies.
taf
-
butlergrt
Re: Reinfrid Update.. Most Interesting
Mar;
Yes that would be Whiteby Abbey. I am not sure as to who was the champion
of whom. I have yet to find out why/how Elyas Foliat builds a wooden and
motte bailley c. 1155 and then one of stop in c.
1167 and yet Roger fitzReinfrid is given ownership of it?
The Barnby church parish website barnby-in-willows .org.uk says "her
grandaughters being the last to live at Holme in 1396". Who am I to go
changing dates on that which I know little or nothing about? I merely
report what is written.
You, I'm sure may be right and it was just a typo on their part.
It is a scheduled monument #241.(Holme Spinney)
There must be some ty-in with the family of Ledet and Foliat, otherwise it
is odd one would build twice and the own and 60 years later it is trial by
combat, both William and Roger long since dead.
When you try to find something when little data is available, you come up
with suppositions and trace them down -dead-end- start again; something
comes up do-it again, or you can sit passively by and let others do the
work for you. Take some aspirin you'll feel better, then join the hunt, a
little Emmett humor.
Best Regards,
Emmett
Yes that would be Whiteby Abbey. I am not sure as to who was the champion
of whom. I have yet to find out why/how Elyas Foliat builds a wooden and
motte bailley c. 1155 and then one of stop in c.
1167 and yet Roger fitzReinfrid is given ownership of it?
The Barnby church parish website barnby-in-willows .org.uk says "her
grandaughters being the last to live at Holme in 1396". Who am I to go
changing dates on that which I know little or nothing about? I merely
report what is written.
You, I'm sure may be right and it was just a typo on their part.
It is a scheduled monument #241.(Holme Spinney)
There must be some ty-in with the family of Ledet and Foliat, otherwise it
is odd one would build twice and the own and 60 years later it is trial by
combat, both William and Roger long since dead.
When you try to find something when little data is available, you come up
with suppositions and trace them down -dead-end- start again; something
comes up do-it again, or you can sit passively by and let others do the
work for you. Take some aspirin you'll feel better, then join the hunt, a
little Emmett humor.
Best Regards,
Emmett
-
Gjest
Re: Reinfrid Update.. Most Interesting
mjcar@btinternet.com schrieb:
Only by the voices inside my head, it seems. As Gordon Kirkemo and
Michael Miller have kindly advised off-list, while Margery Foliot is
said to be the daughter of Richard Foliot (apparently by Margery
Stuteville), it was Richard Foliot's mother - Margery's grandmother -
who was a Reincourt.
Michael Andrews-Reading
Christian's mother, Margery Foliot, is usually said to be daughter of
Richard Foliot by Margery Reincourt.
Only by the voices inside my head, it seems. As Gordon Kirkemo and
Michael Miller have kindly advised off-list, while Margery Foliot is
said to be the daughter of Richard Foliot (apparently by Margery
Stuteville), it was Richard Foliot's mother - Margery's grandmother -
who was a Reincourt.
Michael Andrews-Reading