Sir Thomas Charlton +1445

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Sir Thomas Charlton +1445

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 nov 2005 11:31:33

Some confusion exists about the identity and ancestry of Thomas
Charlton, husband of Elizabeth Francis (daughter and coheir of Sir Adam
Francis, MP). This is probably partly due to the overlapping careers
of this Sir Thomas, and his son and namesake, the Speaker.

Roskell et al in HoP 1386-1421 Vol 2 pp 516-518 present what seems to
be a good summary:

1. Thomas Charlton, MP, of Hillingdon, Middlesex; JP for Middx from
1380; twice MP for the county; died 1410; will proved PCC October 1410
[Prob 11/2A]; married Alice de Cornwall, [daughter and heir of John de
Cornwall], widow of Henry Frowyk, MP [d 1386]; died 1416. Issue:

2. Sir Thomas Charlton, born after 1386; inherited from his father
property at Colham, Ikenham and Uxbridge, Middx, and in London;
inherited from his mother the manors of Burston, Herts, and Little
Greenford, Cowley Hall, Cowley Peachey and Hillingdon, Middx; six times
MP for Middx; JP from 1418; knighted by May 1421; died 24 February
1445; married by 1415 Elizabeth Francis, born circa 1392, daughter and
heir to Sir Adam Francis; inherited the manors of Eyworth, Beds, and
Edmonton, Middx; died 1451. Issue:

3a. Joan Charlton, married by October 1437 William Freville, JP, MP, of
Little Shelford, Cambs (c1420-c1482); left issue

3b. Sir Thomas Charlton, MP, Speaker of the House of Commons, [Feb-Apr
1454, Dod's Parliamentary Companion, 1993]; Sheriff of Beds & Bucks


I know of no connection, putative of otherwise, between the Middlesex
Charltons and the grander family of the same name, earlier of Apley,
Powis &c

Gjest

Re: Sir Thomas Charlton +1445

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 nov 2005 11:50:31

According to Layer, Cole et al, the Charlton arms were impaled on one
of the Freville monuments at Little Shelford [I stupidly didn't note
the full blazon]: a chevron between three swans.

Burke's General Armoury notes the following:

Charlton of Chilwell, co. Nottingham, England:

"Resident about the middle of the fifteenth century, in St. Austin's
parish, Watling-street, London, and subsequently seated at Sandiacre,
co. Derby, whence they removed to Chilwell; the present representative
is Thomas Broughton Charlton, Esq., of Chilwell, co. Nottingham. Arms:
azure, on a chevron or, between three swans argent, as many cinquefoils
gules".

Charlton:

"Azure, a chevron between six swans argent, membered gules".

Charlton:

"Nicholas, son of Thomas Charlton, married Alice, dau of Henry Handly
of Bramcott, Notts. Arms: azure, a chevron or between three swans
argent".

*********

Charleton of Powis and Apley bore, according to Burke, or a lion
rampant gules.

MAR

Gjest

Re: Sir Thomas Charlton +1445

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 nov 2005 11:55:38

m...@btinternet.com schrieb:

Some confusion exists about the identity and ancestry of Thomas
Charlton, husband of Elizabeth Francis (daughter and coheir of Sir Adam
Francis, MP). This is probably partly due to the overlapping careers
of this Sir Thomas, and his son and namesake, the Speaker.

I should add that, as a quick look at the archives will show, in
February 2002 Kay Allen did an excellent job of disentangling these
Middlesex Charltons from those of Apley and Powis.

MAR

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Sir Thomas Charlton +1445

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 27 nov 2005 12:22:17

In message of 27 Nov, mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:

Some confusion exists about the identity and ancestry of Thomas
Charlton, husband of Elizabeth Francis (daughter and coheir of Sir Adam
Francis, MP). This is probably partly due to the overlapping careers
of this Sir Thomas, and his son and namesake, the Speaker.

Roskell et al in HoP 1386-1421 Vol 2 pp 516-518 present what seems to
be a good summary:

1. Thomas Charlton, MP, of Hillingdon, Middlesex; JP for Middx from
1380; twice MP for the county; died 1410; will proved PCC October 1410
[Prob 11/2A]; married Alice de Cornwall, [daughter and heir of John de
Cornwall], widow of Henry Frowyk, MP [d 1386]; died 1416. Issue:

2. Sir Thomas Charlton, born after 1386; inherited from his father
property at Colham, Ikenham and Uxbridge, Middx, and in London;
inherited from his mother the manors of Burston, Herts, and Little
Greenford, Cowley Hall, Cowley Peachey and Hillingdon, Middx; six times
MP for Middx; JP from 1418; knighted by May 1421; died 24 February
1445; married by 1415 Elizabeth Francis, born circa 1392, daughter and
heir to Sir Adam Francis; inherited the manors of Eyworth, Beds, and
Edmonton, Middx; died 1451. Issue:

3a. Joan Charlton, married by October 1437 William Freville, JP, MP, of
Little Shelford, Cambs (c1420-c1482); left issue

3b. Sir Thomas Charlton, MP, Speaker of the House of Commons, [Feb-Apr
1454, Dod's Parliamentary Companion, 1993]; Sheriff of Beds & Bucks


I know of no connection, putative of otherwise, between the Middlesex
Charltons and the grander family of the same name, earlier of Apley,
Powis &c


Interesting.

The published Shropshire 1623 Visitation, with what embellishments I
know not, has a

"Thomas Charleton [italics start] Thomas Knightly al's Charleton
[italics end] aetatis 4 annor' ad mort' Hellenae Charl' amitia eius
cuius heres ipse fuit ob 38 Henry' 6"

who was son of:

"Will'us Knyghtley [from Fawsley, co. Northants] and Anna Charleton
soror & haer' Tho. Charleton."

with Helen being the co-heir wirh Anna of said Thomas and which Helen
dsp 1 H 4.

and the first Thos Charleton / Knyghtley is shown to have married:

"Eliz filia et coheres Adae Franceis milities filij Ada Francis de
London."

I wonder where this will get us to?

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Gjest

Re: Sir Thomas Charlton +1445

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 nov 2005 12:38:05

Tim Powys-Lybbe schrieb:

The published Shropshire 1623 Visitation, with what embellishments I
know not, has a

"Thomas Charleton [italics start] Thomas Knightly al's Charleton
[italics end] aetatis 4 annor' ad mort' Hellenae Charl' amitia eius
cuius heres ipse fuit ob 38 Henry' 6"

who was son of:

"Will'us Knyghtley [from Fawsley, co. Northants] and Anna Charleton
soror & haer' Tho. Charleton."

with Helen being the co-heir wirh Anna of said Thomas and which Helen
dsp 1 H 4.

and the first Thos Charleton / Knyghtley is shown to have married:

"Eliz filia et coheres Adae Franceis milities filij Ada Francis de
London."

I wonder where this will get us to?

Thanks for that, Tim; I was not aware of what the Salop Visitation
actually stated in this respect. It seems pretty clear from HoP that
Sir Thomas Charlton, husband of Elizabeth Francis, is not a member of
the Apley family [who I understand were originally named Knightley but
adopted the Charlton surname upon marrying the Charlton of Apley
heiress]. From the 2002 posts accessible in the archives it would
appear that these possible embellishments to the 1623 Vis. are
erroneous in some respects, but I am yet to see proof one way or the
other. The arms I cited are of course suggestive only.

Regards

Michael

Gjest

Re: Sir Thomas Charlton +1445

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 nov 2005 14:25:02

Tim Powys-Lybbe schrieb:

The published Shropshire 1623 Visitation, with what embellishments I
know not, has a [snip of material from pedigree]...

I make this pedigree to be alleging a stemma thus:

1. ... Charlton, had issue:

2a. Thomas Charlton, died without issue

2b. Helen Charlton, sister and coheir, died without issue 1 Henry IV
(c1400)

2c. Anne Charlton, dead by 1400; sister & coheir; married William
Knightley. Issue:

3. Thomas Knightley alias Charlton, aged 4 in 1 Henry IV (ie born
c1396); died 38 Henry VI (c1460); married Elizabeth, daughter and
coheir of Sir Adam Francis, son of Adam Francis of London.

This compares roughly with the pedigree of Charlton of Apley in Burke's
Peerage, sub Meyrick, Bart (2003 Edition, Vol 2, p 2676):

Sir Alan Charlton of Apley Castle; married Margery FitzAer. Issue:

1. Thomas Charlton, of Apley. Issue:

2a. Thomas Charlton, dsp

2b. Anne Charlton, married William Knightley. Issue:

3. Knightley Charlton, of Apley (father of Robert Charlton of Apley &c)

It appears this "Knightley Charlton" should be equated with the Thomas
Charlton of the Salop Vis. pedigree. However, Thomas of Shropshire is
said to have died in 38 Henry VI, whereas the elder Thomas of Edmonton
died in 1445, and the younger in 1465.

Presumably this is sufficient to indicate that there are three
different individuals, and a conflation in the published Visitation
record. There are a range of IPMs cited by Roskell to prove the
parentage of the elder Thomas of Edmonton's parents (Thomas and Alice
nee Cornwall) and the fact that the younger Thomas of Edmonton was son
and heir both to the elder, and to Elizabeth nee Francis.

MAR

Hal Bradley

Re: Re: Sir Thomas Charlton +1445

Legg inn av Hal Bradley » 27 nov 2005 19:38:02

comment below

From: mjcar@btinternet.com
Date: Sun Nov 27 07:25:02 CST 2005
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Sir Thomas Charlton +1445

Tim Powys-Lybbe schrieb:

The published Shropshire 1623 Visitation, with what embellishments I
know not, has a [snip of material from pedigree]...

I make this pedigree to be alleging a stemma thus:

1. ... Charlton, had issue:

2a. Thomas Charlton, died without issue

2b. Helen Charlton, sister and coheir, died without issue 1 Henry IV
(c1400)

2c. Anne Charlton, by 1400; sister & coheir; married William
Knightley. Issue:

3. Thomas Knightley alias Charlton, aged 4 in 1 Henry IV (ie born
c1396); died 38 Henry VI (c1460); married Elizabeth, daughter and
coheir of Sir Adam Francis, son of Adam Francis of London.

The confusion comes in this generation. With two Thomas Charltons marrying Francis daughters, it was easy for these men to be conflated. Thomas Charlton of Apley married Cecily (not Elizabeth)Francis. However, her family was of Foremark in Derbyshire. "The Topographer and Genealogist", Vol. 1 (1846), p. 361 gives an outline of the Francis family of Foremark. Sir Robert Francis held the wardship of Thomas Charlton of Apley.

Hal Bradley

Gjest

Re: Sir Thomas Charlton +1445

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 nov 2005 20:54:20

Hal Bradley schrieb:

The confusion comes in this generation. With two Thomas Charltons marrying Francis daughters, it was easy for these men to be conflated. Thomas Charlton of Apley married Cecily (not Elizabeth)Francis. However, her family was of Foremark in Derbyshire. "The Topographer and Genealogist", Vol. 1 (1846), p. 361 gives an outline of the Francis family of Foremark. Sir Robert Francis held the wardship of Thomas Charlton of Apley.


Many thanks for this helpful addition Hal.

Michael

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