Gilbert fitzReinfrid, Ivo's father Reinfrid

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butlergrt

Gilbert fitzReinfrid, Ivo's father Reinfrid

Legg inn av butlergrt » 26 nov 2005 20:47:09

Good Afternoon All,
According to what I have found Ivo Taillebois's father was Reinfrid and
his father was Reinfrid.
Reinfrid was listed as a soldier and as the 1st prior of Whitby Abbey and
buried at Hackness, Yorkshire.
Ivo was at the seige of Ely in 1071.
Sheriff of co. Lancaster 1086, had custody of the See of Durham after the
expulsion of the bishop for taking sides with Duke Robert. He was Dapifer
in 1091 at which time the king gave him the Lordship of Kendal and his
family is Angevin.
Davis, Regesta, no.'s 408,409
Ivo was made a Marcher Baron under William Rufus and was"enfeoffed... of
the whole of Ewecross wapentake,then later the Lordship of
Burton-in-Lonsdale, Later the Barony of Kendal with the southwest portion
of Cumberland described as the Barony of Copeland" by J.C. Holye,
Oxford:Clarendon,1961. Chart compiled by Alfred Ramsford p.38 Nov. 1932.
For waht it may be worth

Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: Gilbert fitzReinfrid, Ivo's father Reinfrid

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 26 nov 2005 23:42:01

Dear Emmett
I have Ivo's parents as Geoffrey II Ferreol de Chateau-Landon and Ermengarde
d'Anjou. I've included below, the notes I have about Ivo. Does your later
research mean that we can discount the parents I've mentioned?
Best wishes
Merilyn Pedrick
Aldgate, South Australia

<<Came with William the Conqueror. In 1092 (shortly before his death)
William II Rufus drove the Scots from the Lake District and gave Kendal to
Ivo de Taillebois, whose descendants maintained an interest in the town
until the nineteenth century.
No published source that I have gives parents for Ives/Ivo. World
Connect/rootsweb was the source of Gatinais/Anjou as parents, and I have
seen references in soc.genealogy.medieval as "of Anjou" which fits with his
mother. The book "Origins of Some Anglo-Norman Families" does give a
reliable account of his origins in Cristot, Calvados,Normandy, although that
is not where he was necessarily born, and he may have held other lands than
just Cristot.
----------------------------------------------
The following concerns Ivo's origins in Normandy, prior to the conquest:
Taillebois.
Cristot: Calvados, arr. Caen, cant. Tily-sur-Seulles.
A note in the cartulary of La Trinite de Vendome mentions a copy of the
grant of the church and patronage of Cristot by Ives Taillebois to the abbey
An account of Cristot is given in Beziers, "Diocese de Bayeux, vol ii, p.
192. [Origins of Some Anglo-Norman Families]
----------------------------------------------
The following is a post to SGM, 22 Oct 2001, by Rosie Bevan (gives details
of Ivo's claim to Kendal):
From: Rosie Bevan (cbevan@paradise.net.nz)
Subject: Taillebois [was Gundred de Warenne, Countess of Warwick)
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: 2001-10-22 17:57:13 PST
Hi Todd
Yes, I agree in the normal course of events, it was very unusual for a
Norman to name a son by an English name. On the face of it, this family
appears to have been a mix of Norman, Saxon and Scandinavian and blood. The
barony of Kendal was granted to Ivo de Taillebois, who died about 1089, by
William Rufus and during the reign of Henry I it passed to Ketel son of
Eldred, lord of Workington. Ketel was followed by his son Gilbert and
Gilbert by his son William of Lancaster. Dugdale in Monasticon [v.5, p.249]
claims that William was called Taillebois and by permission from the king
(Henry II) changed his name to Lancaster. [Sanders p.56]. Why he would need
permission, I'm not sure. Ketel also had a son Orm which I think is also a
Scandinavian name. I think it is important to remember that this was at the
northern tip of the Norman empire in England where Norman influence and
culture was not initially quite so important locally and the north of
England has always had a different culture and perspective from the south.
Cumberland was not even covered in the Domesday Book.
Whether there is a genetic link between Ivo de Taillebois and Eldred is not
absolutely clear but for Eldred to have been born to Ivo, he (Ivo) would
have had to have married a very high status Saxon lady (his marriage to
Countess Lucy was evidently contracted late in life). For Eldred to have had
a son with a Norwegian name he would have had to have married a high status
Norwegian lady. Ketel appears to have maried a Norman lady although Orm,
Ketel's son, was reputedly married to Gunnild da. of Gospatric and
granddaughter of Harold II. I am no expert on this period (and it probably
shows) so would appreciate informed comment from someone who has studied
this line.
Cheers, Rosie
Note: I at one time had Eldred as son of Ivo de Taillebois, but have
subsequently changed it based on later information to his son Ketel
(Chetell) marrying a daughter of Ivo, thus explaining the relationship.
-----------------------------------------------
The following information on Ivo was supplied in a post-em by Curt Hofemann,
curt_hofemann@yahoo.com:
Not much to hang your hat on, but...
Ivo de Talboys. Also called 'cut-bush'. Married Lucy. In charge of siege of
Hereward the Wake at Ely, 1069. Steward to William II. Holdings in Lincs.
and Norfolk.
[Ref: Domesday Online: http://www.domesdaybook.co.uk/index.html]
The Lancasters are said to be descendants of Ivo de Taillebois and as
William was governor of Lancaster Castle assumed the name accordingly.
[Stemma Ivonis de Tayleboyse (ex registro S. Mar Ebor New Monast iii 553)
Ivo is stated to have had issue Elthred, the father of Ketel, the father of
Gilbert, father of Wm of Lancaster who married Gundreda Countess of Warwick.
Ketellus filius Elredi was donor of various property to the Abbey of St Mary
York. [Ref: Rosie Bevan 21 Oct 2001 citing The Topographer and Genealogist
1846 p15] note: "is stated" is usually a subtle reference to a difference of
opinion amongst scholars... Curt >>

-------Original Message-------

From: butlergrt
Date: 11/27/05 06:22:33
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Gilbert fitzReinfrid, Ivo's father Reinfrid

Good Afternoon All,
According to what I have found Ivo Taillebois's father was Reinfrid and
his father was Reinfrid.
Reinfrid was listed as a soldier and as the 1st prior of Whitby Abbey and
buried at Hackness, Yorkshire.
Ivo was at the seige of Ely in 1071.
Sheriff of co. Lancaster 1086, had custody of the See of Durham after the
expulsion of the bishop for taking sides with Duke Robert. He was Dapifer
in 1091 at which time the king gave him the Lordship of Kendal and his
family is Angevin.
Davis, Regesta, no.'s 408,409
Ivo was made a Marcher Baron under William Rufus and was"enfeoffed... of
the whole of Ewecross wapentake,then later the Lordship of
Burton-in-Lonsdale, Later the Barony of Kendal with the southwest portion
of Cumberland described as the Barony of Copeland" by J.C. Holye,
Oxford:Clarendon,1961. Chart compiled by Alfred Ramsford p.38 Nov. 1932.
For waht it may be worth

Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Gilbert fitzReinfrid, Ivo's father Reinfrid

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 27 nov 2005 03:43:46

Merilyn Pedrick wrote:
Dear Emmett
I have Ivo's parents as Geoffrey II Ferreol de Chateau-Landon and Ermengarde
d'Anjou. I've included below, the notes I have about Ivo. Does your later
research mean that we can discount the parents I've mentioned?

If this thread has taught us anything, it is that we shouldn't accept
any of this without actual documentation. For whatever reason, Ivo
seems to have served as a lightning rod for wild speculation and flawed
reconstructions.

taf

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Gilbert fitzReinfrid, Ivo's father Reinfrid

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 27 nov 2005 04:52:12

butlergrt wrote:
Good Afternoon All,
According to what I have found Ivo Taillebois's father was Reinfrid and
his father was Reinfrid.


On what basis?

taf

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: Gilbert fitzReinfrid, Ivo's father Reinfrid

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 27 nov 2005 06:50:02

Thanks Todd. So I'll hang on to the current parents and keep other
information waiting in the wings.
Merilyn

-------Original Message-------

From: Todd A. Farmerie
Date: 11/27/05 13:21:31
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Gilbert fitzReinfrid, Ivo's father Reinfrid

Merilyn Pedrick wrote:
Dear Emmett
I have Ivo's parents as Geoffrey II Ferreol de Chateau-Landon and
Ermengarde
d'Anjou. I've included below, the notes I have about Ivo. Does your
later
research mean that we can discount the parents I've mentioned?

If this thread has taught us anything, it is that we shouldn't accept
any of this without actual documentation. For whatever reason, Ivo
seems to have served as a lightning rod for wild speculation and flawed
reconstructions.

taf

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Gilbert fitzReinfrid, Ivo's father Reinfrid

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 27 nov 2005 07:31:27

Merilyn Pedrick wrote:
Thanks Todd. So I'll hang on to the current parents and keep other
information waiting in the wings.

No, just the opposite - set aside the current parents, and the others
waiting in the wings, until someone provides evidence for one of them.
They are all lame guesses - all creations of 'genealogists' with an
excess of enthusiasm or ingenuity, or a deficit of scruples or caution.

I can tell you with virtual certainty that Ivo was not son of Geoffrey
and Ermengarde. He has documented brothers Ralph and Robert, names
completely out of place in the house of Anjou, nor would this number of
kinsman be absent from the decent collection of Angevin charters we have
in hand. Likewise, the Angevins and Normans were rivals up until the
marriage of Matilda to Geoffrey, and Fulk's brothers are not likely to
have given that much help to their beligerent neighbors.

The family is found making donations in northern Normandy, and there is
a village of Taillebois in Calvados, potentially their place of origin.
However, if there is any document that reveals the authentic ancestry
of Ivo, none of the scholarly authors writing on the subject seem to be
aware of it.

taf

Merilyn Pedrick wrote:

Dear Emmett
I have Ivo's parents as Geoffrey II Ferreol de Chateau-Landon and

Ermengarde

d'Anjou. I've included below, the notes I have about Ivo. Does your

later

research mean that we can discount the parents I've mentioned?


If this thread has taught us anything, it is that we shouldn't accept
any of this without actual documentation. For whatever reason, Ivo
seems to have served as a lightning rod for wild speculation and flawed
reconstructions.

taf


Merilyn Pedrick

Re: Gilbert fitzReinfrid, Ivo's father Reinfrid

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 27 nov 2005 08:01:02

O.K. - I'll go to plan B and unlink Geoffrey & Ermengarde until such time
as an original document turns up in some undiscovered archive. Thanks again
Todd.
Merilyn

-------Original Message-------

From: Todd A. Farmerie
Date: 11/27/05 17:06:53
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Gilbert fitzReinfrid, Ivo's father Reinfrid

Merilyn Pedrick wrote:
Thanks Todd. So I'll hang on to the current parents and keep other
information waiting in the wings.

No, just the opposite - set aside the current parents, and the others
waiting in the wings, until someone provides evidence for one of them.
They are all lame guesses - all creations of 'genealogists' with an
excess of enthusiasm or ingenuity, or a deficit of scruples or caution.

I can tell you with virtual certainty that Ivo was not son of Geoffrey
and Ermengarde. He has documented brothers Ralph and Robert, names
completely out of place in the house of Anjou, nor would this number of
kinsman be absent from the decent collection of Angevin charters we have
in hand. Likewise, the Angevins and Normans were rivals up until the
marriage of Matilda to Geoffrey, and Fulk's brothers are not likely to
have given that much help to their beligerent neighbors.

The family is found making donations in northern Normandy, and there is
a village of Taillebois in Calvados, potentially their place of origin.
However, if there is any document that reveals the authentic ancestry
of Ivo, none of the scholarly authors writing on the subject seem to be
aware of it.

taf

Merilyn Pedrick wrote:

Dear Emmett
I have Ivo's parents as Geoffrey II Ferreol de Chateau-Landon and

Ermengarde

d'Anjou. I've included below, the notes I have about Ivo. Does your

later

research mean that we can discount the parents I've mentioned?


If this thread has taught us anything, it is that we shouldn't accept
any of this without actual documentation. For whatever reason, Ivo
seems to have served as a lightning rod for wild speculation and flawed
reconstructions.

taf


butlergrt

Re: Gilbert fitzReinfrid, Ivo's father Reinfrid

Legg inn av butlergrt » 27 nov 2005 18:28:11

Good Morning Todd and all,
You are very very correct!!! Ho wmany other lines have merely been copied
verbatum without source, that is why I came to you folks, you are good at
this, I am not I merely recognized there were some serious problems and I
don't trust Burkes work or many others. Regarding
Ivo son of Reinfrid, son of Reinfrid-at the bottom of the post is where I
had seen this I cannot say without primary documentation or circumstantial
evidence beyond doubt if it is correct. The death dates in the article for
being dapifer in 1091 also stated that Ivo died 1093/94. I thought by
posting this some-one amongst you might have something that this could(?)
connect with.
Best Regards
Emmett

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