Gilbert fitzreinfrid son and Heir...Christina &Ivo

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butlergrt

Gilbert fitzreinfrid son and Heir...Christina &Ivo

Legg inn av butlergrt » 25 nov 2005 16:36:20

Good Morning,
I have found a reference, but once again it screws the timeline up,
dubious, as everything with this line, but others may know more! That is
Christina de Leterham, sister of Gilbert fitzReinfrid, wife of Walter
(Gauthier) de Castlerock of Strickland.
There's that Gilbert fitzReinfrid again! Now there is some family ties.
Maldred, Lord of Atterdale who mar. Aeldgyth(Edith), dau of Uchtred E. of
Northumbria, had Gospatrick whose daughter marr. Orm Lord of Allerdale,
whose granddaughter Ada de Workington mar. William Boteler L of
warrington. Orm's Brother Gilbert de Lancaster mar. Godith whose great
grandaughter married Gilbert FitzReinfrid.
The reason I bring this up is to go back to the above names that started
part of this whole thing with Gilbert fitzReinfrid.
1. Is Ethelred really son of Ivo Taillebois?
a. At this samae time period and connect to the family AND land is
Ethelred,(grt nephew of Maldred, L. of Allerdale), who is Earl of Fife
whose family marries with the Lindseys who married into the children and
grandchildren of Gilbert fitReinfrid and Hawise de Lancaster with back and
forth marriages between the Peter de Brus and the Lindseys and the
fitzReinfrid's 1 and 2 generations later.This later I will take to the
Boteler's, Lindsey's, Brus' of Skelton that I think is a tad cobbled)and
tied in.
b. Ethelred, Earl of Fife, great grandson is also Orm, of the same time
period.
2. Ivo. a. I have seen Ivo as
the son of Reinfrid and brother Roger fitzReinfrid whose son allegedly was
Gilbert fitzReinfrid, then again a timeline problem and inter-marriage
problem.
b. I have seen Ivo as the son of Count Fulk IV and his brother Count Fulk
V and King of Jerusalem.
c. I have seen Ivo as the son of fitzRichard de Roumare.
d. Hugh de Grentemesnil, High Steward of England under WTC, 5th son was
also Ivo mar. Rhoese dau. of Gilbert de Gant. Ivo exiled 1102.
e. Ranulph III de Meschines mar. as the 3rd husband of Lucia widow of Ivo
Taillebois her 1st, Aelgar Earl of Mercia her 2nd, Ranulph and Lucia had
William L. of Bolingboke, Earl of Lincoln mar. Hawise dau. of Richard de
Reviers, Their daughter Rhoese mar. 1st Gilbert de Gant and 2ndly Roger
fitzReinfrid father of Gilbert FitzReinfrid.
All of these for the same time periods,places, and wonder if the old
records merely transferred known names to known places but should have
been ascribed to another line?
I hope this is a little better understood and do truly apologize Todd for
the way I write, I do write it on paper before I type, I re-read it who
knows how many times before I submit and in my mind I still read the same,
but you are correct, 24 hours later I read it and I know what I mean but
it doesn't read that way. I will try to be more careful somehow.
Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler

Patricia Junkin

Re: Gilbert fitzreinfrid son and Heir...Christina &Ivo

Legg inn av Patricia Junkin » 25 nov 2005 18:53:01

All,

Maude de Morville de Vipont gave her daughter Christian 1/2 ploughland of
her demesne in Renegill in frank marriage with Robert son of Derman, land
called Hynthorneham.
After 1199, Christiana de Vipont daughter of Robert, son of Maude and
William de V., and Robert's wife Idonea de Busli, married Thomas, son of
William, Baron de Graistok.
Maud and William's other son, Ivo b. before 1160 married Isabel de
Lancaster and probably Sybil de Thoresby. I cannot confirm that Avice who
married Richard de Morville and Sybil de Lancaster were sisters,
nevertheless in 1371 when Robert de Veteripont, son of Nicholas was seised
thereof by a feoffment made by John de Lancastre, knight, to Nicholas his
father and Ellen his mother and the heirs of their bodies.

FYI
This from A History of Cumberland, "The Domesday Book."
In an explanation of forinsec service regarding gifts to Holmcultram: p.
321-323
Sciant omnes tam presentes quam futuri quod ego Willelmus de Lancastra cum
consilio et consensu et concessione Willelmi filii et heredis mei dedi et
concessi et hac presenti carta mea confirmavi Cospatrico filio Orme et
heredibus suis tenendam de me et heredibus meis in feodo et hereditate
totam terram suam de Cauplandia quam de me tenet sicut ius suum [et]
hereditatem suam, scilicet, villam de Wirkington cum peertinenciis suis et
villam de Lamplogh cum pretenenciis suis quam dedi in excambio pro villa de
Medilton in Lonesdale; hanc totam predictam dedi predicto Cospatricio et
heredibus suis tenendam de me et de heredibus meis pro homagio suo libere et
quiete et honorifice in bosco, in plano, in parcis, in pascuis, in viis, in
semitis, in aquia, in molendinis, cum omnibus libertatibus et liberis
consuetudinibus, sicut aliquis miles liberius et quietius et honorificencius
in tota terra mea tenet, redendo michi annuatim nova calcaria ad aurum vel
sex denarios ad Nundinas Cariolii et faciendo michi forense servicum apud
castellum Egermundia. Hiis yestibus Ketello filio Ulfe et aliis

Pat

From: "butlergrt" <butlergrt@aol.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Gilbert fitzreinfrid son and Heir...Christina &Ivo
Date: Fri, Nov 25, 2005, 10:36 AM


Good Morning,
I have found a reference, but once again it screws the timeline up,
dubious, as everything with this line, but others may know more! That is
Christina de Leterham, sister of Gilbert fitzReinfrid, wife of Walter
(Gauthier) de Castlerock of Strickland.
There's that Gilbert fitzReinfrid again! Now there is some family ties.
Maldred, Lord of Atterdale who mar. Aeldgyth(Edith), dau of Uchtred E. of
Northumbria, had Gospatrick whose daughter marr. Orm Lord of Allerdale,
whose granddaughter Ada de Workington mar. William Boteler L of
warrington. Orm's Brother Gilbert de Lancaster mar. Godith whose great
grandaughter married Gilbert FitzReinfrid.
The reason I bring this up is to go back to the above names that started
part of this whole thing with Gilbert fitzReinfrid.
1. Is Ethelred really son of Ivo Taillebois?
a. At this samae time period and connect to the family AND land is
Ethelred,(grt nephew of Maldred, L. of Allerdale), who is Earl of Fife
whose family marries with the Lindseys who married into the children and
grandchildren of Gilbert fitReinfrid and Hawise de Lancaster with back and
forth marriages between the Peter de Brus and the Lindseys and the
fitzReinfrid's 1 and 2 generations later.This later I will take to the
Boteler's, Lindsey's, Brus' of Skelton that I think is a tad cobbled)and
tied in.
b. Ethelred, Earl of Fife, great grandson is also Orm, of the same time
period.
2. Ivo. a. I have seen Ivo as
the son of Reinfrid and brother Roger fitzReinfrid whose son allegedly was
Gilbert fitzReinfrid, then again a timeline problem and inter-marriage
problem.
b. I have seen Ivo as the son of Count Fulk IV and his brother Count Fulk
V and King of Jerusalem.
c. I have seen Ivo as the son of fitzRichard de Roumare.
d. Hugh de Grentemesnil, High Steward of England under WTC, 5th son was
also Ivo mar. Rhoese dau. of Gilbert de Gant. Ivo exiled 1102.
e. Ranulph III de Meschines mar. as the 3rd husband of Lucia widow of Ivo
Taillebois her 1st, Aelgar Earl of Mercia her 2nd, Ranulph and Lucia had
William L. of Bolingboke, Earl of Lincoln mar. Hawise dau. of Richard de
Reviers, Their daughter Rhoese mar. 1st Gilbert de Gant and 2ndly Roger
fitzReinfrid father of Gilbert FitzReinfrid.
All of these for the same time periods,places, and wonder if the old
records merely transferred known names to known places but should have
been ascribed to another line?
I hope this is a little better understood and do truly apologize Todd for
the way I write, I do write it on paper before I type, I re-read it who
knows how many times before I submit and in my mind I still read the same,
but you are correct, 24 hours later I read it and I know what I mean but
it doesn't read that way. I will try to be more careful somehow.
Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Gilbert fitzreinfrid son and Heir...Christina &Ivo

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 25 nov 2005 19:41:44

butlergrt wrote:

There's that Gilbert fitzReinfrid again! Now there is some family ties.
Maldred, Lord of Atterdale who mar. Aeldgyth(Edith), dau of Uchtred E. of
Northumbria, had Gospatrick whose daughter marr. Orm Lord of Allerdale,
whose granddaughter Ada de Workington mar. William Boteler L of
warrington. Orm's Brother Gilbert de Lancaster mar. Godith whose great
grandaughter married Gilbert FitzReinfrid.
The reason I bring this up is to go back to the above names that started
part of this whole thing with Gilbert fitzReinfrid.
1. Is Ethelred really son of Ivo Taillebois?

No, Ivo's heiress was his daughter Beatrice - in modern reconstructions,
Ethelred is son-in-law, but we have just questioned this.

a. At this samae time period and connect to the family AND land is
Ethelred,(grt nephew of Maldred, L. of Allerdale), who is Earl of Fife
whose family marries with the Lindseys who married into the children and
grandchildren of Gilbert fitReinfrid and Hawise de Lancaster with back and
forth marriages between the Peter de Brus and the Lindseys and the
fitzReinfrid's 1 and 2 generations later.This later I will take to the
Boteler's, Lindsey's, Brus' of Skelton that I think is a tad cobbled)and
tied in.
b. Ethelred, Earl of Fife, great grandson is also Orm, of the same time
period.

This group of names, Ethelred, Orm, etc. were not uncommon in the far
north, and need not imply relationship. It would be expected that the
noble families of the region would form such complex webs of
interrelationships, but these cannot be ised to imply other specific
connections.

2. Ivo. a. I have seen Ivo as
the son of Reinfrid and brother Roger fitzReinfrid whose son allegedly was
Gilbert fitzReinfrid, then again a timeline problem and inter-marriage
problem.
b. I have seen Ivo as the son of Count Fulk IV and his brother Count Fulk
V and King of Jerusalem.
c. I have seen Ivo as the son of fitzRichard de Roumare.

Richard de Roumare - not fitzRichard. At the time of Ivo (born before
the conquest) fitz (actually filius/fils) was an adjective meaning "son
of", plain and simple - it did not come to be used as part of a surname
construct until a couple of generations later and it was only much, much
later that fitz came to form part of personal names.

The take-home message from these is that nobody knows who Ivo was son
of, and so various people have invented connections for him, or simply
identified him with anyone named Ivo. The Anjou connection is
laughable, but typical.

d. Hugh de Grentemesnil, High Steward of England under WTC, 5th son was
also Ivo mar. Rhoese dau. of Gilbert de Gant. Ivo exiled 1102.

This Ivo was a different person entirely.

e. Ranulph III de Meschines mar. as the 3rd husband of Lucia widow of Ivo
Taillebois her 1st, Aelgar Earl of Mercia her 2nd,

Just look at the chronology - AElfgar died in the 1060s, or even 1050s
(have to look it up). Ivo was living in the 1090s, and Lucy had
children by Ranulf, the last of them. Do you see something wrong here?

In fact, the second husband of Lucy was Roger fitz Gerold de Roumare.


Ranulph and Lucia had
William L. of Bolingboke, Earl of Lincoln mar. Hawise dau. of Richard de
Reviers,

William de Roumare, Earl of Loncoln, was son of Lucy by Roger fitz Gerold.

Their daughter Rhoese mar. 1st Gilbert de Gant and 2ndly Roger
fitzReinfrid father of Gilbert FitzReinfrid.

Gilbert de Gant married Rohaise, daughter of Richard fitz Gilbert de
Clare. He was created Earl of Lincoln by Stephen, not through
inheritance. I do not know what came of his wife, but given the general
confusion of your source, I would question this second marriage. It
does not appear that we have two Rohaises, as on the death of William de
Roumare's grandson, his hier was his distant cousin Ranulf, Earl of
Chester, suggesting no such daughter Rohaise.

All of these for the same time periods,places, and wonder if the old
records merely transferred known names to known places but should have
been ascribed to another line?

There is so much confusion among the early Anglo-Norman families that
you really need to take extreme care in the sources you consult.
Earlier scholars were much prone to names-the-same errors, impropper
assumptions, and over-enthusiastic guessing.

taf

Sutliff

Re: Gilbert fitzreinfrid son and Heir...Christina &Ivo

Legg inn av Sutliff » 25 nov 2005 19:51:06

Please forgive me if I am not answering your questions, but I am having
difficulty like Todd following the presentation and exactly what you are
asking. I too am not trying to be offensive or contrary by stating this, it
is just that the way I receive it over the internet, it all comes along as
virtually one paragraph run together and it very confusing to understand
what you are asking or saying. Sorry!

Nevertheless, I think I may understand a couple of things unless I have read
this wrong. Ivo de Taillebois and his brother Ralph were of Taillebois,
Saint-Gervais de Briouze, Calvados, Normandie. It was his daughter Beatrice
who was married to Eldred and Ribald and so no Ivo was not father of
Ethelred or Eldred, but father-in-law of both. Accoding to the sources I
searched (Keats-Rohan, Sanders, VCH Lancs, etc.), you may also be missing a
generation between Orm and Ada as he was her great-grandfather not
grandfather. Orm's son was Gospatric FitzOrm of Workington d. 1179 who was
father of Thomas FitzGospatric d. 1200 (by Grace d. 1210) who was father of
Ada.

Question for Michael-Anne: Your article in Foundations gives Ada two
brothers Thomas de Workington and Patrick de Culwen. Is Patrick the same as
Alan de Culwen who was father of Agnes de Culwen of Camerton, Lancs, wife of
Adam de Radcliffe d. aft. 1246 of Radcliffe and ancestor of the Radcliffes
of Radcliffe. I ask this as I think Alan may be placed as a son of Ada in
VCH Lancs (possibly V:58), but I will have to look this up at my next
opportunity.

Thanks,

HS

"butlergrt" <butlergrt@aol.com> wrote in message
news:b624edcd5069b724871c39d3d85dfd3f@localhost.talkabouteducation.com...
Good Morning,
I have found a reference, but once again it screws the timeline up,
dubious, as everything with this line, but others may know more! That is
Christina de Leterham, sister of Gilbert fitzReinfrid, wife of Walter
(Gauthier) de Castlerock of Strickland. There's that Gilbert fitzReinfrid
again! Now there is some family ties.
Maldred, Lord of Atterdale who mar. Aeldgyth(Edith), dau of Uchtred E. of
Northumbria, had Gospatrick whose daughter marr. Orm Lord of Allerdale,
whose granddaughter Ada de Workington mar. William Boteler L of
warrington. Orm's Brother Gilbert de Lancaster mar. Godith whose great
grandaughter married Gilbert FitzReinfrid. The reason I bring this up is
to go back to the above names that started
part of this whole thing with Gilbert fitzReinfrid. 1. Is Ethelred really
son of Ivo Taillebois?
a. At this samae time period and connect to the family AND land is
Ethelred,(grt nephew of Maldred, L. of Allerdale), who is Earl of Fife
whose family marries with the Lindseys who married into the children and
grandchildren of Gilbert fitReinfrid and Hawise de Lancaster with back and
forth marriages between the Peter de Brus and the Lindseys and the
fitzReinfrid's 1 and 2 generations later.This later I will take to the
Boteler's, Lindsey's, Brus' of Skelton that I think is a tad cobbled)and
tied in. b. Ethelred, Earl of Fife, great grandson is also Orm, of the
same time
period. 2. Ivo. a. I have seen
Ivo as
the son of Reinfrid and brother Roger fitzReinfrid whose son allegedly was
Gilbert fitzReinfrid, then again a timeline problem and inter-marriage
problem. > b. I have seen Ivo as the son of Count Fulk IV and his brother
Count Fulk
V and King of Jerusalem.
c. I have seen Ivo as the son of fitzRichard de Roumare.
d. Hugh de Grentemesnil, High Steward of England under WTC, 5th son was
also Ivo mar. Rhoese dau. of Gilbert de Gant. Ivo exiled 1102.
e. Ranulph III de Meschines mar. as the 3rd husband of Lucia widow of Ivo
Taillebois her 1st, Aelgar Earl of Mercia her 2nd, Ranulph and Lucia had
William L. of Bolingboke, Earl of Lincoln mar. Hawise dau. of Richard de
Reviers, Their daughter Rhoese mar. 1st Gilbert de Gant and 2ndly Roger
fitzReinfrid father of Gilbert FitzReinfrid.
All of these for the same time periods,places, and wonder if the old
records merely transferred known names to known places but should have
been ascribed to another line?
I hope this is a little better understood and do truly apologize Todd for
the way I write, I do write it on paper before I type, I re-read it who
knows how many times before I submit and in my mind I still read the same,
but you are correct, 24 hours later I read it and I know what I mean but
it doesn't read that way. I will try to be more careful somehow.
Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler

Gjest

Re: Gilbert fitzreinfrid son and Heir...Christina &Ivo

Legg inn av Gjest » 25 nov 2005 22:43:02

In a message dated 11/25/2005 3:11:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
WJhonson@aol.com writes:

Are you sure that Gospatric was son of Orm? I question this chronology. It

seems quite a bit too short, based on this thread so far.
Will Johnson




Dear Will,

Gospatric is definitely the son of Orm. Here is another version of the
charter Pat so kindly posted a few messages ago. It clearly shows his father as
Orm:

The Register of the Priory of St. Bees, Surtees Society Publications, No.
126, Andrews & Co., Durham, 1915:

Pages 539-540:
XIX. Grant of Wirkington and Lamplogh by William de Lancaster to Gospatric
son of Orm in exchange for Medilton in Lonesdale [From a copy at Workington
Hall].

Sciant omnes tam presentes quam futuri quod ego, Willelmus de Lancastra, cum
consilio et consensu et concessione Willelmi filii et heredis mei, dedi et
concessi et hac presenti carta mea confirmavi Cospatricio filio Orme et
heredibus suis, tenendam de me et de heredibus meis in feodo et hereditare, totam
terram suam de Cauplandia quam de me tenet sicut ius suum [et] hereditatem
suam, scilicet, villam de Wirkington cum pertinenciis suis et villam de Lamplogh
cum pertinenciis suis quam dedi in excambio pro villa de Medilton in
Lonesdale: hanc totam predictam terram dedi predicto Cospatricio et heredibus suis,
tenendam de me et de heredibus meis pro homagio suo, libere et quiete et
honorifice, in bosco, in plano, in parcis, in pascuis, in viis, in semitis, in
aquis, in molendinis, cum omnibus libertatibus et liberis consuetudinibus, sicut
aliquis miles liberius et quietus et honorificensius in tota terra mea
tenet. Redendo michi annuatim nova calcaria ad auram vel sex denarios ad Nundinas
Carliolii et faciendo michi forense servicium apud castellum de Egermundia.
Hiis testibus Ketello filio Ulfe et aliis.

There are numerous charters at St. Bee's showing his father as Orm as well
as the following from the Chronicon Cumbriae:

Alanus filius et heres ejusdem Waldevi dedit.........Cospatricio filio Ormi
altam Ireby.........

Alan son of Waldeve and his heirs gave......Gospatric son of Orm High Ireby

High Ireby was a town in Northumberland.

MichaelAnne

Patricia Junkin

Re: Gilbert fitzreinfrid son and Heir...Christina &Ivo

Legg inn av Patricia Junkin » 25 nov 2005 22:50:03

Will,

It is not meant to bolster argument since I assumed we engage in
constructive dialogue from which we may all benefit. Simply, the
transcription is a piece of the puzzle and since I am not proficient enough
to translate with confidence, I offered it for those who are and may find
some significance.

In answering a couple of your previous question.
"If Hawise (Helawise) is to be both mother of Helewise (mar Gilbert
FitzReinfrid, Lord of Kendal) AND also mother of Thomas de Greystoke (b
1202/10) then this puts such a crimp on her possible birth range, that it
turns out that William de Lancaster, Lord of Kendall (d 1246) could not be
the son of Gilbert."

They are not the same Helewisa.

Helewisa de Stuteville b. ca. 1160, married William de Lancaster II [the
second]. Without male heirs, their daughter also named Helewisa married
Filbert Fitz Reinfrid. This William died 1184.


She married ca. after 1184 secondly, Hugh de Morville, of Simon de
Morville's line and by him had two daughters, Joan and Ada.
Sorry I confused you with the reference to Levington which indicated simply
that Joan was the mother of yet another Helewisa and an Ada.
This Hugh died 1202. Ca. 1202-1203, in the reign of King John "Dame
Helewisa de Stuteville is of the king's gift and is not married; and her
land is worth 30l. a year, but she has made fine with King John that she may
be in her own gift." Her daughter Ada was a widow of Richard de Lucy and ca.
1203-15 in the custody of Thomas de Muleton.

Thirdly, Helewisa married William fitz Ranulf, lord of Greystoke, probably
shortly after the death of Hugh de Morville. This William died 1209. William
and Helewisa Greystoke had a son, Thomas b. 1202 [1203-4] who married
Christian, daughter of Robert de Veteripont.

Sorry, but which Alice of Lancaster do you refer? Hope this clarifies.

Pat

----------
From: WJhonson@aol.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Gilbert fitzreinfrid son and Heir...Christina &Ivo
Date: Fri, Nov 25, 2005, 3:12 PM


In a message dated 11/25/05 9:51:59 AM Pacific Standard Time,
pajunkin@cox.net writes:

FYI
This from A History of Cumberland, "The Domesday Book."
In an explanation of forinsec service regarding gifts to Holmcultram: p.
321-323
Sciant omnes tam presentes quam futuri quod ego Willelmus de Lancastra cum
consilio et consensu et concessione Willelmi filii et heredis mei dedi et
concessi et hac presenti carta mea confirmavi Cospatrico filio Orme et

If this is meant to bolster your argument, it would be helpful if you posted
a translation of it :)
Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Gilbert fitzreinfrid son and Heir...Christina &Ivo

Legg inn av Gjest » 25 nov 2005 23:13:01

In a message dated 11/25/05 1:42:15 PM Pacific Standard Time,
ClaudiusI0@aol.com writes:

<< Gospatric is definitely the son of Orm. Here is another version of the
charter Pat so kindly posted a few messages ago. It clearly shows his father
as
Orm: >>

OK its been very confusing. YOU posted about someone having a child William
at 15 and giving a specific year for that possible event, thus stating a claim
to the birthyear of the father. Now isnt' this Orm the brother of that
William?

Gjest

Re: Gilbert fitzreinfrid son and Heir...Christina &Ivo

Legg inn av Gjest » 25 nov 2005 23:21:02

In a message dated 11/25/2005 5:11:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, WJhonson
writes:

OK its been very confusing. YOU posted about someone having a child William
at 15 and giving a specific year for that possible event, thus stating a
claim to the birthyear of the father. Now isn't' this Orm the brother of that
William?


Dear Will,

Ketel was the father of William [ his eldest son] and Orm. Orm [the younger
son] witnessed a charter of Roger de Poictevin in 1094 [Farrer, Pipe Rolls of
Lancashire, pp. 289-290]. To be a witness to this charter Orm must have at
least 14 years of age. That means Orm was born by 1080 to be at least 14 in
1094. William who was Orm's older brother had to be at least a year older
making him born at least by 1079. If we use these years to try and arrive at a
birth year for their father Ketel it would be unlikely that Ketel sired a
child before he was 15 years of age. If Ketel were 15 when William was born using
the date above then Ketel was born before 1064 [ 1079 -15 years].

I was trying to establish the latest possible date at which Ketel could have
been born. So from documented sources Ketel had to be born in 1064 or
before.

I hope this makes sense.

MichaelAnne

Gjest

Re: Gilbert fitzreinfrid son and Heir...Christina &Ivo

Legg inn av Gjest » 25 nov 2005 23:22:03

In a message dated 11/25/05 11:05:47 AM Pacific Standard Time,
suthen@redshift.com writes:

<< Orm's son was Gospatric FitzOrm of Workington d. 1179 who was
father of Thomas FitzGospatric d. 1200 (by Grace d. 1210) who was father of
Ada. >>

Are you sure that Gospatric was son of Orm? I question this chronology. It
seems quite a bit too short, based on this thread so far.
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Gilbert fitzreinfrid son and Heir...Christina &Ivo

Legg inn av Gjest » 25 nov 2005 23:43:02

In a message dated 11/25/05 2:19:44 PM Pacific Standard Time, ClaudiusI0
writes:

<< I was trying to establish the latest possible date at which Ketel could
have been born. So from documented sources Ketel had to be born in 1064 or
before. >>

And since he was alive in the charter you posted dated 1115-1120 then we have
a lower date as well, since it's unlikely he was more than 100 at his death :)

Will

Gjest

Re: Gilbert fitzreinfrid son and Heir...Christina &Ivo

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 nov 2005 01:52:58

Hi Emmett

I to have seen this, I raised a question some 2 years ago and got
laughed at.

Source: A Genealogical & Heraldic History of Commoners of GB & Ireland
by John Burke, footnote on the page264

Brendan Wilson
New Zealand


On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 10:36:20 -0500, "butlergrt" <butlergrt@aol.com>
wrote:

b. I have seen Ivo as the son of Count Fulk IV and his brother Count Fulk
V and King of Jerusalem

To Reply: remove [.] from around the dot. Stops Spam

Researching: Lowther, Westmoreland. Clifford, Cumberland /Yorkshire. Brennan, Kilhile, Ballyhack Wexford. Fitzgibbon, Kingsland French Park Rosscommon,Ireland. Prendergast & Donohue, Cappoquin Lismore, Waterford. Starr & Turner, Romford Essex,England.
Peters, Hamburg & Ballarat Victoria.Lund, Hamburg.Lowther & McCormack,Dublin.

butlergrt

Re: Gilbert fitzreinfrid son and Heir...Christina &Ivo

Legg inn av butlergrt » 26 nov 2005 14:37:48

Good Morning Brendan,
Well it is unfortunate that it happened, but these folks are pretty good
by my book, granted criticism seems like laughng, but it is not. It gets
you to re-define your point or focus and look for flaws in your thought
pattern. This debate, if you will, helps in this re-defining process and
hopefully new ideas or information will come about.
I, unlike many people, who start at the beginning with established lines
and work towards themselves, filling in gaps along the way, started with
myself and worked back, found gad-zillions of flaws(de-bunked lots of
family myths and legends, doesn't make you popular but they all know, you
know that of which you speak) and you get it right.
There will reach a time, as I surmise you have found, where dates, names
etc., no longer jibe (fit) and you start doing "possibility thinking" and
here, this site, and these people, who have done this and are on a
similiar jouney, but much better at it than you and I, come into play.
They know alot of these things and know where to look and if it is in
their make up to help so be it, if it is along the same family lines as
possibly you may have something to share that they also do not have(works
both ways) they are trying to bring you to a level of interface that they
can work with, criticism can be a good thing, just don't take it
personally.
Regarding Fulk IV, Count d'Anjou and Ivo, there are many associations and
familial ties and historical events that seem to fit but the jury is still
out as of yet, nothing concrete at this point.
Have a great day or evening as the case is there.
Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler

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