Dear Newsgroup ~
In the ongoing discussion regarding the identity of Eleanor, first wife
of Sir John Dinham (died 1428), of Hartland, Devon, mention has been
made of her connection to the Percehay family of Kyton Barton,
Devonshire. The following record shows that Eleanor's proposed father,
Sir John Montagu, was definitely familiar with Henry Percehay, which
individual witnessed his homage to Bishop Wykeham in 1376:
Date: 9 May 1376.
Homage done by Sir John de Montacute, kt., for two knight's fees: -
Memorandum, quod ... ds. Johannes de Monte Acuto, miles, fecit homagium
reverendo, etc., pro duobus feodis militum in Huntone in hundredo de
Butelesgate in com. Sutht., que duo feoda Herbertus filius Petri
quondam tenuit, et que idem Johannes die quo fecit et prestitit
homagium tenuit et habuit, presentibus domino Laurencio de S. Martino,
milite; Henrico Percehay, Waltero Cloptone, Joh. Middeltone; Willelmo
Burgh, Michaele Skyllyng, Roberto Plesyngtone, Ricardo Pauncefot, Thoma
Warenner; mm. Willelmo Lozynge, Johanne de Campeden, clericis; Johanne
de Uvedale, Johanne Scures, Edmundo Missendene, Willelmo de Guldeforde,
et aliis." [Reference: T.F. Kirkby, ed., Wykeham's Register, 2 (1899):
251-252].
The property named in the above record is the manor of Hunton (in
Crawley), Hampshire, which formed part of the inheritance of Margaret
de Monthermer, wife of Sir John de Montagu. Sir John de Montagu died
seised of this property in right of his wife in 1389 [Reference: VCH
Hampshire, 3 (1908): 409-410].
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Sir John de Montagu and the Percehay family
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Gjest
Re: Sir John de Montagu and the Percehay family
And on this note, on Leo's great website here
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... 6&tree=LEO
we see the wife of one of John Montagu and Margaret de Monthermer's children
namely John de Montagu, 3rd Earl of Salisbury d 5 Jan 1399/1400 "Lynched by a
mob at Cirencester"
(as opposed to beheaded which Leo shows) and his wife Maud (Matilda)
Fraunceys d 1424
On his wife Maud, Leo is showing not much data. Here I present her death
year, a child by her marriage to Alan Buxhull and his conveyance of a manor later.
Will Johnson
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------
The origins of the reputed manor of WICK lay in land which had been brought
to the Templars by Ailbrith when he entered their order and, apart from two
small holdings, had been granted by the master Richard of Hastings to Robert of
Wick by 1185. (Footnote 73) The land was held of the Templars and, after their
suppression, of the Hospitallers. (Footnote 74) It was held by Robert of
Wick's son Edmund de la Grave and later with other parcels by Robert Belebarbe, who
leased all his lands in Wick in 1301 and conveyed them to Simon of Abingdon,
alderman, in 1316. Simon made further additions, as did his widow Eve and her
second husband John of Causton, alderman, who sold Wyke and all their other
lands in Hackney and Stepney to Adam Francis (d. 1375), mayor of London, in
1349; the manor then consisted of at least two houses and 114 a. After more
purchases, some made through agents including Nicholas atte Wyke, a clerk, the
estate passed to Adam's widow Agnes and then to his daughter Maud, who married John
Aubrey, Sir Alan Buxhall (d. 1381), and John de Montagu, earl of Salisbury.
(Footnote 75) The earl was executed in 1400, when his forfeited estates
included the manor of Hackney Wick, with a tenement called the Wick, held half of the
bishop of London and half of the Hospitallers. (Footnote 76)
Wick was released in 1400 to Maud (d. 1424) and in 1425 to her son Sir Alan
Buxhall. (Footnote 77) Sir Alan Buxhall in 1436 conveyed Wick in remainder to
Thomas de Montagu, restored as earl of Salisbury, and his wife, to whom Thomas
Buxhall quitclaimed Wick in 1445. (Footnote 78) Thereafter the estate
presumably followed the vicissitudes of the earldom of Salisbury, which passed in 1460
to Richard Neville, earl of Warwick (d. 1471), and, after forfeitures, was
held by George, duke of Clarence, from 1472 to 1478 and by Edward, son of
Richard, duke of Gloucester (afterwards Richard III), from 1478 to 1484. (Footnote
79) Wick was granted, perhaps only briefly, by Edward IV to Sir John Risley (d.
1512), (Footnote 80) to whom it was regranted by Henry VII. Risley left no
sons and in 1513 the Crown granted it to William Compton of Chigwell (Essex),
(Footnote 81) although presumably it soon passed to Clarence's reinstated
daughter Margaret, countess of Salisbury (d. 1541). Margaret sold the manor of Wick
to William Bowyer, later knighted as lord mayor of London, in 1538, when she
and her son Henry Pole, Lord Montague, quitclaimed 470 a., including marshland,
in Hackney and Stepney. (Footnote 82)
73 Feud. Aids, vi. 489.
74 Archaeologia Cantiana, lx. 24. Sir John's grandson John in 1433 acquired
W. Twyford by exchange with Adam Bamme's son Ric.: Hist. Parl., Commons,
1439-1509, Biographies, 682; V.C.H. Mdx. vii. 174.
75 H.A.D., D/F/TYS 70/5 ('Balmes Papers').
76 Survey of Lond. viii. 80; P.R.O., E40/12856.
77 H.A.D., D/F/TYS 70/5; P.R.O., C 142/64, no. 152; C 142/191, no. 85. Cf.
descent in V.C.H. Hants, iii. 407.
78 P.R.O..PROB 11/82 (P.C.C. 60 Neville). The est. was therefore probably not
held by the Welds, as in Robinson, Hackney, i. 158; cf. Burke, Commoners, ii
(1830), 409-10.
79 Survey of Lond. viii. 80; D.N.B.
80 Cal. Cttee. for Advance of Money, i. 120.
81 Cal. Cttee. for Compounding, iv. 2890.
82 Robinson, Hackney, i. 163; Survey of Lond. viii. 4; P.R.O., PROB 11/377,
f. 106; G.L.R.O., E/BVR/7.
From: 'Hackney: Manors', A History of the County of Middlesex: Volume 10:
Hackney (1995), pp. 75-91. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=22707. Date accessed: 24 November 2005.
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... 6&tree=LEO
we see the wife of one of John Montagu and Margaret de Monthermer's children
namely John de Montagu, 3rd Earl of Salisbury d 5 Jan 1399/1400 "Lynched by a
mob at Cirencester"
(as opposed to beheaded which Leo shows) and his wife Maud (Matilda)
Fraunceys d 1424
On his wife Maud, Leo is showing not much data. Here I present her death
year, a child by her marriage to Alan Buxhull and his conveyance of a manor later.
Will Johnson
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------
The origins of the reputed manor of WICK lay in land which had been brought
to the Templars by Ailbrith when he entered their order and, apart from two
small holdings, had been granted by the master Richard of Hastings to Robert of
Wick by 1185. (Footnote 73) The land was held of the Templars and, after their
suppression, of the Hospitallers. (Footnote 74) It was held by Robert of
Wick's son Edmund de la Grave and later with other parcels by Robert Belebarbe, who
leased all his lands in Wick in 1301 and conveyed them to Simon of Abingdon,
alderman, in 1316. Simon made further additions, as did his widow Eve and her
second husband John of Causton, alderman, who sold Wyke and all their other
lands in Hackney and Stepney to Adam Francis (d. 1375), mayor of London, in
1349; the manor then consisted of at least two houses and 114 a. After more
purchases, some made through agents including Nicholas atte Wyke, a clerk, the
estate passed to Adam's widow Agnes and then to his daughter Maud, who married John
Aubrey, Sir Alan Buxhall (d. 1381), and John de Montagu, earl of Salisbury.
(Footnote 75) The earl was executed in 1400, when his forfeited estates
included the manor of Hackney Wick, with a tenement called the Wick, held half of the
bishop of London and half of the Hospitallers. (Footnote 76)
Wick was released in 1400 to Maud (d. 1424) and in 1425 to her son Sir Alan
Buxhall. (Footnote 77) Sir Alan Buxhall in 1436 conveyed Wick in remainder to
Thomas de Montagu, restored as earl of Salisbury, and his wife, to whom Thomas
Buxhall quitclaimed Wick in 1445. (Footnote 78) Thereafter the estate
presumably followed the vicissitudes of the earldom of Salisbury, which passed in 1460
to Richard Neville, earl of Warwick (d. 1471), and, after forfeitures, was
held by George, duke of Clarence, from 1472 to 1478 and by Edward, son of
Richard, duke of Gloucester (afterwards Richard III), from 1478 to 1484. (Footnote
79) Wick was granted, perhaps only briefly, by Edward IV to Sir John Risley (d.
1512), (Footnote 80) to whom it was regranted by Henry VII. Risley left no
sons and in 1513 the Crown granted it to William Compton of Chigwell (Essex),
(Footnote 81) although presumably it soon passed to Clarence's reinstated
daughter Margaret, countess of Salisbury (d. 1541). Margaret sold the manor of Wick
to William Bowyer, later knighted as lord mayor of London, in 1538, when she
and her son Henry Pole, Lord Montague, quitclaimed 470 a., including marshland,
in Hackney and Stepney. (Footnote 82)
73 Feud. Aids, vi. 489.
74 Archaeologia Cantiana, lx. 24. Sir John's grandson John in 1433 acquired
W. Twyford by exchange with Adam Bamme's son Ric.: Hist. Parl., Commons,
1439-1509, Biographies, 682; V.C.H. Mdx. vii. 174.
75 H.A.D., D/F/TYS 70/5 ('Balmes Papers').
76 Survey of Lond. viii. 80; P.R.O., E40/12856.
77 H.A.D., D/F/TYS 70/5; P.R.O., C 142/64, no. 152; C 142/191, no. 85. Cf.
descent in V.C.H. Hants, iii. 407.
78 P.R.O..PROB 11/82 (P.C.C. 60 Neville). The est. was therefore probably not
held by the Welds, as in Robinson, Hackney, i. 158; cf. Burke, Commoners, ii
(1830), 409-10.
79 Survey of Lond. viii. 80; D.N.B.
80 Cal. Cttee. for Advance of Money, i. 120.
81 Cal. Cttee. for Compounding, iv. 2890.
82 Robinson, Hackney, i. 163; Survey of Lond. viii. 4; P.R.O., PROB 11/377,
f. 106; G.L.R.O., E/BVR/7.
From: 'Hackney: Manors', A History of the County of Middlesex: Volume 10:
Hackney (1995), pp. 75-91. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=22707. Date accessed: 24 November 2005.
-
Gjest
Re: Sir John de Montagu and the Percehay family
Will you might be interested to view the tree created by Tim Powys-Lybbe here
http://www.southfarm.plus.com/pl_tree/ps02/ps02_183.htm
Where he has this John Montacute, 3rd Earl of Salisbury and his apparently
only wife Maud Fraunceys (her third husband).
Tim however only shows four children to this couple. There were five, the
younger son Richard de Montacute, died without issue see
http://www.britannia.com/bios/lords/sarum3jm.html
Also although Tim is showing that Elizabeth de Montacute who married Robert,
6th Lord Willoughby of Eresby. And that this Elizabeth, he is showing, died
abt 1445, I'm wondering what the source of this date is ? The reason for my
questioning it, is that her mother Maud does not mention Elizabeth in her will.
Although she DOES mention her other two [known] surviving children. This
makes me think Elizabeth died BEF the will of 1424.
Comments always appreciated.
Will Johnson
http://www.southfarm.plus.com/pl_tree/ps02/ps02_183.htm
Where he has this John Montacute, 3rd Earl of Salisbury and his apparently
only wife Maud Fraunceys (her third husband).
Tim however only shows four children to this couple. There were five, the
younger son Richard de Montacute, died without issue see
http://www.britannia.com/bios/lords/sarum3jm.html
Also although Tim is showing that Elizabeth de Montacute who married Robert,
6th Lord Willoughby of Eresby. And that this Elizabeth, he is showing, died
abt 1445, I'm wondering what the source of this date is ? The reason for my
questioning it, is that her mother Maud does not mention Elizabeth in her will.
Although she DOES mention her other two [known] surviving children. This
makes me think Elizabeth died BEF the will of 1424.
Comments always appreciated.
Will Johnson
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Sir John de Montagu and the Percehay family
In message of 24 Nov, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
<snip>
If anyone is interested, the is principally confirmed in "A Calendar of
the Cartularies of John Pyel and Adam Fraunceys", ed S J O'Connor, pub
in Camden Fifth Series Vol 2 in 1993, pp. 203-218.
The main additional detail is that most of the purchases were made by
Adam Fraunceys and Thomas de Langeton together. It seems to have been
some sort of tontine as when Thomas died, between 1358 and 1361, the
whole went to Adam, who then purchased further parcels in this area.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
<snip>
The origins of the reputed manor of WICK lay in land which had been
brought to the Templars by Ailbrith when he entered their order and,
apart from two small holdings, had been granted by the master
Richard of Hastings to Robert of Wick by 1185. (Footnote 73) The
land was held of the Templars and, after their suppression, of the
Hospitallers. (Footnote 74) It was held by Robert of Wick's son
Edmund de la Grave and later with other parcels by Robert Belebarbe,
who leased all his lands in Wick in 1301 and conveyed them to Simon
of Abingdon, alderman, in 1316. Simon made further additions, as did
his widow Eve and her second husband John of Causton, alderman, who
sold Wyke and all their other lands in Hackney and Stepney to Adam
Francis (d. 1375), mayor of London, in 1349; the manor then
consisted of at least two houses and 114 a.
If anyone is interested, the is principally confirmed in "A Calendar of
the Cartularies of John Pyel and Adam Fraunceys", ed S J O'Connor, pub
in Camden Fifth Series Vol 2 in 1993, pp. 203-218.
The main additional detail is that most of the purchases were made by
Adam Fraunceys and Thomas de Langeton together. It seems to have been
some sort of tontine as when Thomas died, between 1358 and 1361, the
whole went to Adam, who then purchased further parcels in this area.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Sir John de Montagu and the Percehay family
In message of 24 Nov, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
I only include the children that interest me and for which I have some
sort of evidence.
Maud Fraunceys died around 1424; CP says that her dau Eliz. Montacute
was living in 1438. Robt Willoughby remarried bef. 9 Jan 1448/9. Abt
1445 looks a good guess?
On the subject of wills, children would be handsomely provided for at
marriage and Eliz. Montacute married four years before her mother died.
So it not surprising that nothing further was done for such children by
will. Eldest sons are notorious for not appearing in medieval and later
wills; their automatic inheritance added to the lack of appearance.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
Will you might be interested to view the tree created by Tim
Powys-Lybbe here
http://www.southfarm.plus.com/pl_tree/ps02/ps02_183.htm
Where he has this John Montacute, 3rd Earl of Salisbury and his
apparently only wife Maud Fraunceys (her third husband).
Tim however only shows four children to this couple. There were five,
the younger son Richard de Montacute, died without issue see
http://www.britannia.com/bios/lords/sarum3jm.html
I only include the children that interest me and for which I have some
sort of evidence.
Also although Tim is showing that Elizabeth de Montacute who married
Robert, 6th Lord Willoughby of Eresby. And that this Elizabeth, he is
showing, died abt 1445, I'm wondering what the source of this date is?
Maud Fraunceys died around 1424; CP says that her dau Eliz. Montacute
was living in 1438. Robt Willoughby remarried bef. 9 Jan 1448/9. Abt
1445 looks a good guess?
The reason for my questioning it, is that her mother Maud does not
mention Elizabeth in her will. Although she DOES mention her other
two [known] surviving children. This makes me think Elizabeth died
BEF the will of 1424.
On the subject of wills, children would be handsomely provided for at
marriage and Eliz. Montacute married four years before her mother died.
So it not surprising that nothing further was done for such children by
will. Eldest sons are notorious for not appearing in medieval and later
wills; their automatic inheritance added to the lack of appearance.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
-
John P. Ravilious
Re: Sir John de Montagu and the Percehay family
Dear Doug,
Thanks for that interesting post. It is interesting that Henry de
Percehay was the first non-knight who witnessed this act of homage.
I hope you and yours are having a happy and healthy Thanksgiving.
Cheers,
John
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Thanks for that interesting post. It is interesting that Henry de
Percehay was the first non-knight who witnessed this act of homage.
I hope you and yours are having a happy and healthy Thanksgiving.
Cheers,
John
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~
In the ongoing discussion regarding the identity of Eleanor, first wife
of Sir John Dinham (died 1428), of Hartland, Devon, mention has been
made of her connection to the Percehay family of Kyton Barton,
Devonshire. The following record shows that Eleanor's proposed father,
Sir John Montagu, was definitely familiar with Henry Percehay, which
individual witnessed his homage to Bishop Wykeham in 1376:
Date: 9 May 1376.
Homage done by Sir John de Montacute, kt., for two knight's fees: -
Memorandum, quod ... ds. Johannes de Monte Acuto, miles, fecit homagium
reverendo, etc., pro duobus feodis militum in Huntone in hundredo de
Butelesgate in com. Sutht., que duo feoda Herbertus filius Petri
quondam tenuit, et que idem Johannes die quo fecit et prestitit
homagium tenuit et habuit, presentibus domino Laurencio de S. Martino,
milite; Henrico Percehay, Waltero Cloptone, Joh. Middeltone; Willelmo
Burgh, Michaele Skyllyng, Roberto Plesyngtone, Ricardo Pauncefot, Thoma
Warenner; mm. Willelmo Lozynge, Johanne de Campeden, clericis; Johanne
de Uvedale, Johanne Scures, Edmundo Missendene, Willelmo de Guldeforde,
et aliis." [Reference: T.F. Kirkby, ed., Wykeham's Register, 2 (1899):
251-252].
The property named in the above record is the manor of Hunton (in
Crawley), Hampshire, which formed part of the inheritance of Margaret
de Monthermer, wife of Sir John de Montagu. Sir John de Montagu died
seised of this property in right of his wife in 1389 [Reference: VCH
Hampshire, 3 (1908): 409-410].
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net