William Blunde

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charlotte smith

William Blunde

Legg inn av charlotte smith » 24 nov 2005 06:22:01

I have found the arms of William Blunde on the seal of William de Echingham d 1294 along with the arms of Stopham, St John and Echingham. I can find no references to a William Blunde in my searches. His arms are in Joseph Foster's Dictionary of Heraldry. Has anyone seen this name in their readings.



charlotte c smith

Gjest

Re: William Blunde

Legg inn av Gjest » 24 nov 2005 07:35:16

charlotte smith schrieb:

I have found the arms of William Blunde on the seal of William de Echingham d 1294 along with the arms of Stopham, St John and Echingham. I can find no references to a William Blunde in my searches. His arms are in Joseph Foster's Dictionary of Heraldry. Has anyone seen this name in their readings.

Try 'Blount'.

Michael

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: William Blunde

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 24 nov 2005 11:38:34

In message of 24 Nov, charcsmith@verizon.net (charlotte smith) wrote:

I have found the arms of William Blunde on the seal of William de
Echingham d 1294 along with the arms of Stopham, St John and
Echingham. I can find no references to a William Blunde in my
searches. His arms are in Joseph Foster's Dictionary of Heraldry.
Has anyone seen this name in their readings.

The Medieval Ordinary of British Arms, Vol 1, p. 93 has these arms
given to about 60 people:

Barry wavy of 6

Amongst the 60 people are William le Blount and William le Blund and
for the latter it says:

Birch 7517. S'WILL'L-LE BLVNB. temp Edw 2.

Birch is "British Museum Seals" ed W. de Gray Birch, pub British Museum
1887.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Derek Howard

Re: William Blunde

Legg inn av Derek Howard » 24 nov 2005 13:25:13

Birch 7517. S'WILL'L-LE BLVNB. temp Edw 2.

Birch is "British Museum Seals" ed W. de Gray Birch, pub British Museum 1887.

Should read S'WILL'L LE BLVND

The Birch reference (vol. II, p 516) adds little other than this (and
7518 taken from it) is a sulphate cast (ref: D.C., F. 205) from an
indistinct impression and unfortunately does not therefore lead us to a
document reference. It is described as oval containing "a shield of
arms barry wavy of six, Blount, etc. Suspended by a strap from a tree
of three branches."

Birch also has the seal (7507, vol II, p 515) of John le Blount of
Sheprigge, ?co Wilts, 1343 bearing barry nebuly of six, with crest on a
helmet and mantling a fan shaped plume, with in the field of the seal a
wyvern by way of dexter supporter. The ms ref for this is Add ch 17409
with cross refs to Add mss 5937 and 6046 f 50b; and Add ch 17396 (dated
1324). I ignore later examples of other Blount seals but this one may
give a clue as to family and area.

Derek Howard

Gjest

Re: William Blunde

Legg inn av Gjest » 24 nov 2005 17:29:01

In a message dated 11/24/2005 2:50:17 AM Pacific Standard Time,
tim@powys.org writes:

Amongst the 60 people are William le Blount and William le Blund and
for the latter it says:


There is a name in my own tree "le Blonde"
Interesting

Will Johnson

Derek Howard

Re: William Blunde

Legg inn av Derek Howard » 25 nov 2005 09:10:20

I have since been contacted by Charlotte who points me in the direction
of a different blazon in Foster to that followed up by Tim.

This may illustrate the importance of precise references or description
in queries. Not to worry though as there my yet be a connection in this
case. Charlotte was refering to the arms on p.25 of Foster's Dictionary
of Arms whereas the undy coat of William Blunt is on p.24 along with
John de Blount.

Foster's entry against William Blunde refers to Henry III roll masulée
or and sable; Grimaldi and Glover rolls; lozengy in Howard roll and
Jenyns Ordinary.

There are no lozengy or varient arms, whether or and sable or
otherwise, assigned to Blount in Cecil Humphery-Smith's _Anglo-Norman
Armory_ (an ordinary of medieval rolls). However, he has, appart from
the Blounts with undy shields (p 49) and others, one bearing Sable
three pales of lozenges conjoined Or. this looks suspiciously like the
reference picture albeit drawn as three pales it could be lozengy
misinterpreted. This shield is assigned to William Blound in the
FitzWilliam roll (no 620). The current manuscript of FW is a late roll
of c. 1530 and not contemporary though drawing together material from
earlier sources.

The FW roll is printed in Humphery-Smith's "Anglo-Norman Armory". On
page 121 H-S notes for William le Blund that "William le Blound held
lands in Seaton, Rut(land), living 1287". I am not sure how this person
fits in genealogically with the following.

The Glover roll (1253-8) edition by H S London is printed in Rolls of
Arms of Henry III, ed Wagner, Soc of Antiquaries, 1967. London's notes
for no 94 on the roll (p 133) read:
<quote>
Will'm Blount mascle d'or et de noir
(a) lozebgy or and sable
(b) undy (as B 93 ["Basset, unde d'or and gules"]) of six pieces sable
and or
cf [B II] 94, [B III] -, [B IV] 123
William le Blount, or Blund, of Ixworth, Suffolk, s of William le
Blount, was slain at Lewes 1265, and left no issue. His sisters Agnes,
wife of William de Criketoft, and Rohese wife of Robert d Valoynes,
shared his lands. (Dugd. _Bar._ i. 518; _Cal Inq_, vol i, no 585;
Croke, _The Croke Family_, i, 105-7.)
B II and B IV agree with B I (a) in making the arms Lozengy or and
sable, and the same coat is given for William le Blount, probably the
same person as William of Ixworth in FW [FitzWilliam] 620; P
[Grimaldi's roll c 1350] 123; TJ [Thomas Jenyns book c 1410] 1042. B
I(b)'s trick, Barry wavy sable and or is probably a draughtsman's
variation of the lozengy coat engendered by the knowledge that Barry
wavy or and sable was a Blount coat. It was borne by the Blounts of
Elmley Lovett and Sodington, Worcs., who were descended from Stephen le
Blount, uncle of William le Blount of Ixworth. (Croke, _The Croke
Family_, i, 102-12, ii, 120-8).
<end quote>

B is the standard reference to Glover's roll and the roman numerals to
versions of it. They are dated to the 1250s.

A death in the 1260s would fit as well as the 1280s with
Humphery-Smith's view of the dating of the original material from which
FW was compiled.

So it looks as if the lozengy and the barry wavy shields have a related
origin and the various Blounts may all be connected. Which precise
person's arms appear on the Etchyngham seal Charlotte refers to is not
completely clear to me. I would also be interested in the reference for
the Echyngham seal and how it contains various other shields. Any
pointers?

I hope this is helpful.

Derek Howard

Derek Howard

Re: William Blunde

Legg inn av Derek Howard » 25 nov 2005 09:23:57

As I was posting this I received from Charlotte the following reference
source for the seal, which I hope she does not mind me posting:
"I am attaching the seal of William Echyngham as printed in the 1850
book "Echyngham of Echyngham" by Spencer Hall. This gives a picture
of the "blunde'? arms. They seem to match what I found in the Foster
Dictionary of Heraldry. Blount family enters the Echyngham family but
not until 1440 or so. A Wm Echyngham d 1326 was married to Eva
Stopham. St. John no clue. Wm Echyngham who d 1294 was married to a
Katherine last name unknown. "

The seal, attributed to the WIlliam Echyngham who d 1294, shows the
legend:
SIG WILLIMI DE ECHINGHAM MILITIS
surrounding in the field four shields conjoined at their base:
1. Fretty (Echyngham)
2. Three crescents (two visible) a canton (Stopham)
3. Lozengy (Blount)
4. On a chief two mullets (St John)

Derek Howard

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