Gilbert fitzReinfrid son and heir..Further..

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Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Gilbert fitzReinfrid son and heir..Further..

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 01 des 2005 06:17:43

Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:
Dear Todd,
Ramon Berenguer and Berenguer Ramon a case of Patronymics? I
was thinking of the twin brothers Ramon Berenguer II and Berenguer Ramon who
were joint Counts of Barcelona.

(they probably weren't twins, by the way - anything close to
contemporary just says "brother" - the "twins" is a later literary
improvement.)

The pedigree:

Borrell

Ramon Borrell

Berenger Ramon

Ramon Berenger

(patronymics so far, then)

Ramon Berenger,Berenger Ramon

- named for their father and grandfather, respectively - this is the
evolution of the system I was talking about, not patronymic but based on
the use of predicessors patronymic forms (I sometimes call these
pseudo-patronymic forms, as they are derived from a patronymic
structure, but no longer following the patronymic formula), only now
being passed in toto. These are not two brothers named Berenger AKA
Ramon, with the two alternative names given in different orders, nor is
it a case of a main name and a secondary name, like modern middle names.
Instead, the names represent a single unit, and should perhaps be
represented as Berenger-Ramon and Ramon-Berenger, analogous to our own
MichaelAnne - a single name, written in two parts. That is different
than the other examples, of William Rufus [name nickname] or the
Dammartin brothers I mentioned, who appear in documents as either one or
the other, and only rarely as one alias the other - where the names are
true alternatives for the same person. I guess what I am trying to get
across is that there are double names and there are double names, and
context is everything. In a post-conquest Anglo-Norman context, double
name are inauthentic.

(Lest Nat jumps in to keep me honest, Borrell's uncle appears to have
had a non-patronymic, non-pseudopatronymic double name. He was Wifred
Borrell, and was son of Wifred and great grandson of Borrell, apparently
named dually to honor both father and founder - more analogous to
Charles Constantine than the other examples we have been discussing).

taf

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Gilbert fitzReinfrid son and heir..Further..

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 01 des 2005 07:28:20

Patricia Junkin wrote:

Perhaps not as scholarly as necessary but seems to be a vetted posting on
the Appleby Castle website[http://www.orme.org.uk/appleby.html] posts this:
Gospatric, son of Orm, was fined for surrendering Appleby Castle to William
the Lion, King of Scotland, in 1174.

[Not sure of the following is from this source, but it is less than worthy.]

Guillaume Ive Raoul de Taillebois was "left hand brother" to Fulke, Count of
Anjou. Whether he was born out of wedlock, or whether he was a half-brother
from his mothers previous marriage is uncertain, but the result was that Ivo
was not in a position to inherit and went with William to England. It has
been suggested that he was related to William's father, therefore to
William. Ivo was given lands in Lancaster and became the Baron of Kendall,
he was also made Earl of Holland in Lincolnshire. Ivo married Lucia,
daughter of Thorold, Lord of Spalding and Count of Mercia. After Lucia's
death, Ivo married a daughter of King Eadgar of Mercia, their son was Eldred
(sometimes spelled Elftred).

We have already discussed him having three names, he didn't. We have
discussed the claimed relationship to Fulk - no historical basis
whatsoever. There was no such title as Earl of Holland, nor Count of
Mercia (there were Ealdormen of Mercia, but Thorold was not one of
them), and the only Edgar, King of Mercia since the time of Alfred the
Great was Edgar the Magnificent, King of the English. As to Ivo being
father of Eldred, IIRC, this appeared in an ancient poorly-dated
pedigree, and has long been dismissed (but it has been repackaged to
make Eldred Ivo's son-in-law, something that has been called into
question in this thread).

Lucy's marriage history is well known/well documented. She married
thrice, first to Ivo, second to Roger filius Gerold de Roumare, and
third to Ranulph, Earl of Chester. She was a major heiress, with huge .
.. . . tracts of land, but there are no surviving documents that directly
attest to her parentage, and speculation has run wild. Older sources
(Burkes, et al) make her daughter or granddaughter of Leofric, Ealdorman
of Mercia and his wife Godgifu (Godiva), which is chronoloically
impossible. More recent analysis of her land holdings has led to the
conclusion that she was granddaughter of the pre-Conquest Anglo-Norman
baron, William Malet, and the likely father was a certain Turold. It
looks like, in the finest tradition of scholarship, when faced with
these two contradictory solutions to Lucy's parentage - daughter of
Turold or daughter of an Ealdorman of Mercia, this source concluded that
they represented sequencial marriages. Ivo _may_ have had an earlier
wife, but Lucy outlived him by more than two decades.

Eldred became the 2nd Baron of Kendall and married Edgitha who was the
granddaughter of King Ethelred II.

Invention, plain and simple - there is no evidence for such a marriage.

They had two sons Gospatric Ormson (or FitzOrme) 5th Baron of Kendall and
Robert Ormson (or FitzOrme). Robert married Christina, daughter of Anketin
de Meynwarin.

In all I have seen on the Mainwaring, I have not seen mention of an Anketin.

taf

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Gilbert fitzReinfrid son and heir..Further..

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 01 des 2005 07:30:36

Patricia Junkin wrote:
Will,
I must agree and support another post which suggested we use the land as
well. I am thoroughly confused by all that has been posted. I cannot vouch
for the website data so will post more of Hodgson.
Ethelred II, k. of Englanf began to reign in 979 and died 1016.
Hodgson says his second daughter Elgiva was wife of Ivo Tailboys, Baron of
Kendal, according to Vincent's pedigree..but Ivo Taylboys did not come to
England before the Conquest in 1066, 50 years after Ethelred's death. So,
generationaly this is probably incorrect. And, I have found error in Hodgson
' account of the Veteriponts.


What is it about Ivo that makes him the focus for so much errant
speculation/invention?

Sutliff

Re: Gilbert fitzReinfrid son and heir..Further..

Legg inn av Sutliff » 01 des 2005 08:47:15

"Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote in message
news:dmm56c$sg5$1@eeyore.INS.cwru.edu...
Patricia Junkin wrote:

snip
They had two sons Gospatric Ormson (or FitzOrme) 5th Baron of Kendall and
Robert Ormson (or FitzOrme). Robert married Christina, daughter of
Anketin
de Meynwarin.

In all I have seen on the Mainwaring, I have not seen mention of an
Anketin.

taf

Would not the Mainwaring family have been known as Mesnilwarin at this time
which may also be indicative of something amiss? In addition to no Anketin I
believe there is no evidence of any other Christina at any generation of
this family. This seems a likely invention

HS

Gjest

Re: Gilbert fitzReinfrid son and heir..Further..

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 des 2005 18:00:54

Todd A. Farmerie schrieb:

Patricia Junkin wrote:

Guillaume Ive Raoul de Taillebois was "left hand brother" to Fulke, Count of
Anjou. Whether he was born out of wedlock, or whether he was a half-brother
from his mothers previous marriage is uncertain, but the result was that Ivo
was not in a position to inherit and went with William to England. It has
been suggested that he was related to William's father, therefore to
William. Ivo was given lands in Lancaster and became the Baron of Kendall,
he was also made Earl of Holland in Lincolnshire. Ivo married Lucia,
daughter of Thorold, Lord of Spalding and Count of Mercia. After Lucia's
death, Ivo married a daughter of King Eadgar of Mercia, their son was Eldred
(sometimes spelled Elftred).

We have already discussed him having three names, he didn't.

Ah, but perhaps "Guillaume" is Saxon for "Ive", which may be Norman for
"Raoul".

If necessary, I could probably create a website stating this, and then
start quoting from it...

Gjest

Re: Gilbert fitzReinfrid son and heir..Further..

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 des 2005 20:07:02

In a message dated 11/30/05 10:37:24 PM Pacific Standard Time,
farmerie@interfold.com writes:

<< Lucy's marriage history is well known/well documented. She married
thrice, first to Ivo, second to Roger filius Gerold de Roumare, and
third to Ranulph, Earl of Chester. She was a major heiress, with huge .
. . . tracts of land, but there are no surviving documents that directly
attest to her parentage, and speculation has run wild. >>

Well what about her children then?
With Ranulph did she have any or all of these children ascribed, by various
sources to her?

Agnes
Ranulph 2nd Earl of Chester d 1153
William of Skipton
Alice le Meschines married Richard Earl of Hertford
Maud le Meschines married Hugh FitzRanulf ?

(Opens a new can of worms probably)

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Gilbert fitzReinfrid son and heir..Further..

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 des 2005 23:25:12

(1) In a message WJhon...@aol.com Nov 28, 6:36 pm Will Johnson wrote:


<<In a message dated 11/26/05 6:36:29 PM Pacific Standard Time,
FDP...@aol.com
writes: << (10) ?William (II) [de Lancaster] witnessed his father's
1120/30 confirmation of Chetell's gifts to St Peter's Hospital, York
I question this identification. Although there is a person named William in this confirmation, there is not indication, to my mind, that this person was William of Lancaster, Lord of Kendall who d 1170. Thanks Will Johnson

(2) Will Johnson answers my message dated 11/27/05 3:51:28 PM Pacific
Standard Time, FDP...@aol.com in message WJhon...@aol.com Nov 28, 8:05
pm

<< It appears Hawsie/Helewise de Lancaster was delivered to ward ship
in 1084
at her fathers death and given in marriage in 1189. If she was 20 at
marriage, then born 1169. Applying our 29 year average interval makes
her father
William de Lancaster II approx b. 1140 and his father approx b. 1111.
Continuing
to Goditha approx b. 1082 and on to Beatrice approx b. 1053 and lastly
to Ivo
approx b. 1024. If she were 15 at her marriage, then Beatrice was
approx b.
1058 and Ivo 1029. So she is bracketed between 1053 and 1058 plus or
minus ??? >>

Sorry but you cannot apply an averaging technique to identify every
possible interval.
My own technique will hopefully demonstrate this. Hawise was given in
marriage by 1189. She was the daughter of William of Lancaster, Lord of
Kendal and Hawise
(Helawise) of Stuteville. This Helawise was married twice more to Hugh
de Morville d 1202 and to William FitzRanulph de Greystoke d 1209 By
this last husband she was mother to Thomas de Greystoke b 1202/10. at
which time Helawise could not have been older then 47 thus b aft 1154

Hawise her daughter had to be born by 1185 since her father died in
1184. However she could not have been born earlier than 1168 when her
own mother, by our reasoning in the last paragraph could have been no
more then 13. Thus Helewise of Stuteville was born 1155/68. And Hawise
of Lancaster 1168/85.

Now William of Lancaster, Lord of Kendel d 1184 had to be at least 17
at the birth of his daughter and so could not have been born later than
1168. His own mother Gundred de Warenne did not marry William Lord of
Kendel until at least 1153 when her prior husband had died. Therefore
William's own birth is bound by 1153/68.

My chronology *is* possible. There is no boundary stating that Hawise
who
married Gilbert must have been an adult and in fact, since her wardship
was
given, she could have been a mere baby for all we know. Her oldest
known child
was born as late as 1200 per my database, so that does not help at all.


Are you suggesting that this William was not the son of Gundred? Thanks
Will Johnson>>

(3) In a message WJhon...@aol.com Nov 29, 11:05 am Will Johnson
writes:

<<In a message dated 11/29/2005 7:43:11 AM Pacific Standard Time,
FDP...@aol.com writes: William de Lancaster II was NOT the son of
Gundred de Warren which is
well known. She also was not mother to Avice according to the recent
discussion in this Newsgroup.

This is not well known. Prove it.

(4) In a message WJhon...@aol.com Nov 30, 7:10 pm Will Johnson
writes:

<<In a message dated 11/30/05 3:16:39 PM Pacific Standard Time,
FDP...@aol.com
writes: I?m still interested in seeing that charter I asked you for.
Thanks in
advance. >>

You must mean the charter that you stated absolutely proves the
relationship
and yet which you apparently have never seen ....That charter. And no
I'm having no problem at all with my William's of Lancaster. I'm
stating, point-blank, that the charter you're referring to, does not
prove what you're claiming it proves :) Hope that's straight-forward
enough to follow. I know I'm sometimes obtuse. Will Johnson

(5) In a message WJhon...@aol.com Nov 29, 5:37 pm Will Johnson
writes:

<<In a message dated 11/29/05 9:07:17 AM Pacific Standard Time,
FDP...@aol.com
writes: It is good enough for me and I suspect many others. I am sorry.
You are
exposing yourself. Please post the charter I asked for..Thanks
Cheers, >>

You believe it because Keats Rohan said it. Well now we have other
published authors who say the exact opposite. But of course you pick
what secondary source you want to use at the moment, ignoring all the
others, and ignoring why they are saying it. That's your method, not
mine. What is the point of a "discussion" list if your mind is closed
to any attempt to expose flaws in your argument?

Dear Will

The above exchanges were about the father of Hawise de Lancaster who
was William de Lancaster II. The difference of opinion is Will?s
contention that he was the son of the marriage of William de Lancaster
I to Gundred de Warren widow of Roger, earl of Warwick (d. l153). My
contention is that he is the product of William de Lancaster I?s
marriage to an earlier wife who is unknown which is a position of Dr.
Keats-Rohan which I support. Keats-Rohan has reconstructed the
traditional interpretation of Eldred, Ketel, Gilbert, William de
Lancaster I to Eldred, Goditha, William de Lancaster I. See my message
FDP...@aol.com Nov 29, 11:45 am.

In the chronological analysis above Will said:

<<Now William of Lancaster, Lord of Kendel d 1184 had to be at least 17
at the birth of his daughter and so could not have been born later than
1168. His own mother Gundred de Warenne did not marry William Lord of
Kendel until at least 1153 when her prior husband had died. Therefore
William's own birth is bound by 1153/68.>>

To respond to this statement and the other increasing challenges above
I have assembled a number of records of William II that refute Will?s
contention that William II was the product of a 1153 marriage. They are
all from William Farrer?s *Records of Kendale* Vol I & II. Most readers
will conclude these records are not from a child of this marriage but
chronologically from a previous marriage of William de Lancaster I.

(1) William Farrer, *Records of Kendale*, vol I, page 214

*1160-1170 William de Lancaster I, at the prayer of William de
Lancaster, his son and heir, grants to Alexander de Windesoure with his
daughter Agnes in marriage what he had in Haversham, Grarigg with the
appurtenances, and what he had in Morland. See Haversham, s.d.
1160-70.*

(2) Haversham s.d. 1160-1170 is found in Vol II, Records of Kendal,
page 143.
*1160- 1170 William de Lancastre I, at the prayer of William de
Lancastre, his son and heir, grants to Alexander de Windesoure with his
daughter Agnes in marriage what he had in Heversham, Grarigg with the
appurtenances, and what he had in Morland. Witnesses: Geoffrey earl
of R( ), Roger de Vallibus son of Hubert de Vallibus,
William de Lancastre the grantor's son, William the chaplain, Robert
de Montgomery, Richard de Heruie (sic), Gervase D'Eincurt, Simon de
Turs, William de Laceles, Walter de Windesoure, Robert the chamberlain,
Robert Crisp, Gilbert son of William [de Lancastre] and Jordan his
brother, Gamel the priest, Robert Mustell; Reg. of D. at Levens.*

(3) From Farrar, Records of Kendal, Vol.1, p. 130.
*1170-1180 William de Lancastre II grants to Gervase de Ainecurt 15
(pounds) worth
of land for the service of ? fee in Natland and Bothelford [extending]
to the brook of the gallows and to the bounds of Hoton and Stainton,
with Sizaritherge, Winderg and the other Winderg, the grantor's part of
Lander and that part of Socabret which Waldeve held, all which he gave
for 12 (pounds) 10s. worth of land ; and for 50s. worth of land in
arrears he delivered to the said Gervase the service of Hacatorp in
pledge for 50s., until he perfected the said 15 (pounds) worth of land.
Witnesses : Norman the sewer, Jordan the grantor's son, Gilbert the
grantor's son, Grunebald, Robert de Heriez, Anselm, Orm son of Tore,
Roger de Crofd, Roger son of [Adam, Orm son of Bernu-]lf, Robert
Mustel, William parson of Warton John the clerk, Richard the
chamberlain, W[illiam Pultypgton]; orig. D. at Sizergh.

Gillem de Lancastre quit claims to Gervase de Haencurt all rents and
services which he ought to perform to the grantor for his manors and
lands in the county of Westmorland, in exchange for the rent of 50s. in
Westmorland which Gervase has granted to the grantor. Witnesses
: Norman the sewer, Robert de Heriic, Anselyne, Orme Fitz [Thor],
Roger Ie chambarleyn, Gillem de Croft, Gillem Ie parson de Warton,
Johan clerk, [Ri]cardyn Ie Chamburleyn, Gillem Puttyngton (French) ;
orig. D. at Sizergh.*

(4) From Farrar, Records of Kendal, Vol.1, p. 167.
*1170-1180 William de Lancaster II. gave to Gervase de Ainecurt, for
his homage and service, 15 (pounds)worth of land yearly, to hold for
the service of 3 parts of one knight's fee, namely inter alia Natalund
and Bothelford [extending] unto the brook of the gallows and so the
whole field up to the way from Hoton .... to the bounds of Hoton and
Stainton; see Sizergh, p. 130.*

(5) From Farrar, Records of Kendal, Vol.1, p. 203
*1154-1189 William son of William de Lancaster gives to the brethren
of the hospital of St. Peter, York, the land called Dockerga, by bounds
(described), in exchange for land in Kirkeby in Kendale which Ketel son
of Eitred gave them and the land of Bartonheved which William, the
donor's father gave them; Cat. of Chart. R.,ii, 442.

(6) From Farrar, Records of Kendal, Vol.1, p. 222
*1154-1189 William de Lancaster II gave to Gervase de Ancourt 12
(pounds) 10s. of land in Welpaatt and Qwynfell by bounds (described).
Deed at Sizergh.*

(7) From Farrar, Records of Kendal, Vol.1, p. 231
*1154-1189 William de Lancastre II gave to the monks of Byland his part
of Borgheredale by bounds (described), to hold in alms, for the
settlement of the complaint which Wimund, late bishop of the Isles, had
against the donor's father; D. at Levens; Hist. MSS. Corn. Rep. X,
pt.iv, 323.*

(8) From Farrar, Records of Kendal, Vol.1, p. 342 Note: The appendix
references here are in Latin. If someone wants them I?ll be glad to
send.

*1170-1184 William de Lancastre II gave to William Gefrason a moiety of
Croke by bounds (described) with common of pasture between Croke and
Stirkeland, to hold for 73. 5d. yearly; Reg. of D. at Levens. See
Appendix xxvi.

1170-1184 The same William de Lancastre gave to Walter the cook the
moiety of Croke by bounds (described) with common of pasture (as
above), to hold for 3s. yearly; ib. See Appendix xxvii.*

(9) From Farrar, Records of Kendal, Vol.1, p. 342
*1170-1181 William de Lancaster II gave to Norman de Hieland, Lefnes
for 8s. rent, saving the fishery and water of Kent unto Sandpol, and
saving hawks, hart and hind, wild boar and sow. Witnesses; Helewise
the grantor's wife, Simon de Turs, Anselm, Huctred son of Osolf, Roger
son of Adam, Robert Mustel, Richard son of Alard, Jordan, Gilbert
the grantor's brother, Gilbert de Croft, John the clerk; Orig. at
Levens.*

Incidentally, the Huctred son of Osolf, are father and grandfather of
Richard de Preston who married Erneburga le Fleming daughter of the
Anselm also a Witness.
Will, if this is not enough to convince you that you have the
chronology wrong then you are far more closed minded than you accuse me
of being.

I think after my going to all this trouble that it is only fair that
you send the charter I have repeatedly asked you to post. Thanks in
advance.

Cheers,

Dix Preston

Gjest

Re: Gilbert fitzReinfrid son and heir..Further..

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 des 2005 01:46:02

In a message dated 12/1/05 8:38:18 PM Pacific Standard Time, FDP527@aol.com
writes:

<< (3) From Farrar, Records of Kendal, Vol.1, p. 130.
*1170-1180 William de Lancastre II grants to Gervase de Ainecurt 15
(pounds) worth of land for the service of ? fee in Natland and Bothelford
[extending] to the brook of the gallows and to the bounds of Hoton and Stainton, with
Sizaritherge, Winderg and the other Winderg, the grantor's part of Lander
and that part of Socabret which Waldeve held, all which he gave for 12 (pounds)
10s. worth of land ; and for 50s. worth of land in arrears he delivered to
the said Gervase the service of Hacatorp in pledge for 50s., until he
perfected the said 15 (pounds) worth of land. Witnesses : Norman the sewer, Jordan
the grantor's son, Gilbert the grantor's son, Grunebald, Robert de Heriez,
Anselm, Orm son of Tore, Roger de Crofd, Roger son of [Adam, Orm son of
Bernu-]lf, Robert Mustel, William parson of Warton John the clerk, Richard the
chamberlain, W[illiam Pultypgton]; orig. D. at Sizergh. >>

Farrar is a secondary source. I suggest he added the "II" above to identify
William.
The original source might have simply said William de Lancaster.
It appears that this William had a son Gilbert and a son Jordan. So since
you've already stated that this were sons of William I de Lancaster, you'd have
to assume that the next heir William II also named two sons after his two
brothers.

Otherwise you have to say that this document is still talking about William I

Will Johnson

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Gilbert fitzReinfrid son and heir..Further..

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 03 des 2005 20:12:57

mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
Todd A. Farmerie schrieb:


Patricia Junkin wrote:


Guillaume Ive Raoul de Taillebois was "left hand brother" to Fulke, Count of
Anjou. Whether he was born out of wedlock, or whether he was a half-brother
from his mothers previous marriage is uncertain, but the result was that Ivo
was not in a position to inherit and went with William to England. It has
been suggested that he was related to William's father, therefore to
William. Ivo was given lands in Lancaster and became the Baron of Kendall,
he was also made Earl of Holland in Lincolnshire. Ivo married Lucia,
daughter of Thorold, Lord of Spalding and Count of Mercia. After Lucia's
death, Ivo married a daughter of King Eadgar of Mercia, their son was Eldred
(sometimes spelled Elftred).

We have already discussed him having three names, he didn't.


Ah, but perhaps "Guillaume" is Saxon for "Ive", which may be Norman for
"Raoul".

If necessary, I could probably create a website stating this, and then
start quoting from it...


You probably don't have to make a web site - having been posted several
days ago, it is probably already on several web pages as the Gosh Honest
Truth.

taf

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Gilbert fitzReinfrid son and heir..Further..

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 03 des 2005 20:20:47

FDP527@aol.com wrote:

(2) Haversham s.d. 1160-1170 is found in Vol II, Records of Kendal,
page 143.
*1160- 1170 William de Lancastre I, at the prayer of William de
Lancastre, his son and heir, grants to Alexander de Windesoure with his
daughter Agnes in marriage what he had in Heversham, Grarigg with the
appurtenances, and what he had in Morland. Witnesses: Geoffrey earl
of R( ), Roger de Vallibus son of Hubert de Vallibus,
William de Lancastre the grantor's son, William the chaplain, Robert
de Montgomery, Richard de Heruie (sic), Gervase D'Eincurt, Simon de
Turs, William de Laceles, Walter de Windesoure, Robert the chamberlain,
Robert Crisp, Gilbert son of William [de Lancastre] and Jordan his
brother, Gamel the priest, Robert Mustell; Reg. of D. at Levens.*

(3) From Farrar, Records of Kendal, Vol.1, p. 130.
*1170-1180 William de Lancastre II grants to Gervase de Ainecurt 15
(pounds) worth
of land for the service of ? fee in Natland and Bothelford [extending]
to the brook of the gallows and to the bounds of Hoton and Stainton,
with Sizaritherge, Winderg and the other Winderg, the grantor's part of
Lander and that part of Socabret which Waldeve held, all which he gave
for 12 (pounds) 10s. worth of land ; and for 50s. worth of land in
arrears he delivered to the said Gervase the service of Hacatorp in
pledge for 50s., until he perfected the said 15 (pounds) worth of land.
Witnesses : Norman the sewer, Jordan the grantor's son, Gilbert the
grantor's son, Grunebald, Robert de Heriez, Anselm, Orm son of Tore,
Roger de Crofd, Roger son of [Adam, Orm son of Bernu-]lf, Robert
Mustel, William parson of Warton John the clerk, Richard the
chamberlain, W[illiam Pultypgton]; orig. D. at Sizergh.

(9) From Farrar, Records of Kendal, Vol.1, p. 342
*1170-1181 William de Lancaster II gave to Norman de Hieland, Lefnes
for 8s. rent, saving the fishery and water of Kent unto Sandpol, and
saving hawks, hart and hind, wild boar and sow. Witnesses; Helewise
the grantor's wife, Simon de Turs, Anselm, Huctred son of Osolf, Roger
son of Adam, Robert Mustel, Richard son of Alard, Jordan, Gilbert
the grantor's brother, Gilbert de Croft, John the clerk; Orig. at
Levens.*


These seem to be in conflict. Charters 2 and 9 show Jordan and Gilbert
as brothers of William II, while charter 3 shows them to be his sons. I
suspect that charter 3 is misattributed, and that Gilbert and Jordan
were younger sons of William I, brothers of William II.

taf

Douglas Richardson

Re: Gilbert fitzReinfrid son and heir..Further..

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 03 des 2005 20:24:24

My comments are interspersed below. DR

Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
This looks like there has been some confusion. The original Anglo-Saxon
version was Æthelred (Æthel- "prince"; -red "counsel"). In a norman
context, this name degenerated into Agelred (where the g is pronounced
as a 'y'), Ælred and finally Alred, Allred, or Elred. (There was a
second route of degeneration that results in a more confusing end -
Æthel- sometimed degenerated to Ædel-, Adel- and then simply Ad-, which
is indistinguishable from those derived from Ead-/Ed-).

What is your source for this information?

Elftred, while looking superficially similar, does not really fall in
this progression. Instead, it seems to derive from a separate root. If
a male name, it would break down as Ælft- -red, yet Ælft- isn't an
appropriate root. Instead, it should be Ælf- ("elf"). It looks like
one of two things has happened here - either an inappropriate 't' has
been added to the middle of the name, or else this is in fact a female
name, derived from Ælfthryth (Ælf- "elf"; -thryth "strength").

What is your source for this information?

> taf

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