(1) In a message
WJhon...@aol.com Nov 28, 6:36 pm Will Johnson wrote:
<<In a message dated 11/26/05 6:36:29 PM Pacific Standard Time,
FDP...@aol.comwrites: << (10) ?William (II) [de Lancaster] witnessed his father's
1120/30 confirmation of Chetell's gifts to St Peter's Hospital, York
I question this identification. Although there is a person named William in this confirmation, there is not indication, to my mind, that this person was William of Lancaster, Lord of Kendall who d 1170. Thanks Will Johnson
(2) Will Johnson answers my message dated 11/27/05 3:51:28 PM Pacific
Standard Time,
FDP...@aol.com in message
WJhon...@aol.com Nov 28, 8:05
pm
<< It appears Hawsie/Helewise de Lancaster was delivered to ward ship
in 1084
at her fathers death and given in marriage in 1189. If she was 20 at
marriage, then born 1169. Applying our 29 year average interval makes
her father
William de Lancaster II approx b. 1140 and his father approx b. 1111.
Continuing
to Goditha approx b. 1082 and on to Beatrice approx b. 1053 and lastly
to Ivo
approx b. 1024. If she were 15 at her marriage, then Beatrice was
approx b.
1058 and Ivo 1029. So she is bracketed between 1053 and 1058 plus or
minus ??? >>
Sorry but you cannot apply an averaging technique to identify every
possible interval.
My own technique will hopefully demonstrate this. Hawise was given in
marriage by 1189. She was the daughter of William of Lancaster, Lord of
Kendal and Hawise
(Helawise) of Stuteville. This Helawise was married twice more to Hugh
de Morville d 1202 and to William FitzRanulph de Greystoke d 1209 By
this last husband she was mother to Thomas de Greystoke b 1202/10. at
which time Helawise could not have been older then 47 thus b aft 1154
Hawise her daughter had to be born by 1185 since her father died in
1184. However she could not have been born earlier than 1168 when her
own mother, by our reasoning in the last paragraph could have been no
more then 13. Thus Helewise of Stuteville was born 1155/68. And Hawise
of Lancaster 1168/85.
Now William of Lancaster, Lord of Kendel d 1184 had to be at least 17
at the birth of his daughter and so could not have been born later than
1168. His own mother Gundred de Warenne did not marry William Lord of
Kendel until at least 1153 when her prior husband had died. Therefore
William's own birth is bound by 1153/68.
My chronology *is* possible. There is no boundary stating that Hawise
who
married Gilbert must have been an adult and in fact, since her wardship
was
given, she could have been a mere baby for all we know. Her oldest
known child
was born as late as 1200 per my database, so that does not help at all.
Are you suggesting that this William was not the son of Gundred? Thanks
Will Johnson>>
(3) In a message
WJhon...@aol.com Nov 29, 11:05 am Will Johnson
writes:
<<In a message dated 11/29/2005 7:43:11 AM Pacific Standard Time,
FDP...@aol.com writes: William de Lancaster II was NOT the son of
Gundred de Warren which is
well known. She also was not mother to Avice according to the recent
discussion in this Newsgroup.
This is not well known. Prove it.
(4) In a message
WJhon...@aol.com Nov 30, 7:10 pm Will Johnson
writes:
<<In a message dated 11/30/05 3:16:39 PM Pacific Standard Time,
FDP...@aol.comwrites: I?m still interested in seeing that charter I asked you for.
Thanks in
advance. >>
You must mean the charter that you stated absolutely proves the
relationship
and yet which you apparently have never seen ....That charter. And no
I'm having no problem at all with my William's of Lancaster. I'm
stating, point-blank, that the charter you're referring to, does not
prove what you're claiming it proves

Hope that's straight-forward
enough to follow. I know I'm sometimes obtuse. Will Johnson
(5) In a message
WJhon...@aol.com Nov 29, 5:37 pm Will Johnson
writes:
<<In a message dated 11/29/05 9:07:17 AM Pacific Standard Time,
FDP...@aol.comwrites: It is good enough for me and I suspect many others. I am sorry.
You are
exposing yourself. Please post the charter I asked for..Thanks
Cheers, >>
You believe it because Keats Rohan said it. Well now we have other
published authors who say the exact opposite. But of course you pick
what secondary source you want to use at the moment, ignoring all the
others, and ignoring why they are saying it. That's your method, not
mine. What is the point of a "discussion" list if your mind is closed
to any attempt to expose flaws in your argument?
Dear Will
The above exchanges were about the father of Hawise de Lancaster who
was William de Lancaster II. The difference of opinion is Will?s
contention that he was the son of the marriage of William de Lancaster
I to Gundred de Warren widow of Roger, earl of Warwick (d. l153). My
contention is that he is the product of William de Lancaster I?s
marriage to an earlier wife who is unknown which is a position of Dr.
Keats-Rohan which I support. Keats-Rohan has reconstructed the
traditional interpretation of Eldred, Ketel, Gilbert, William de
Lancaster I to Eldred, Goditha, William de Lancaster I. See my message
FDP...@aol.com Nov 29, 11:45 am.
In the chronological analysis above Will said:
<<Now William of Lancaster, Lord of Kendel d 1184 had to be at least 17
at the birth of his daughter and so could not have been born later than
1168. His own mother Gundred de Warenne did not marry William Lord of
Kendel until at least 1153 when her prior husband had died. Therefore
William's own birth is bound by 1153/68.>>
To respond to this statement and the other increasing challenges above
I have assembled a number of records of William II that refute Will?s
contention that William II was the product of a 1153 marriage. They are
all from William Farrer?s *Records of Kendale* Vol I & II. Most readers
will conclude these records are not from a child of this marriage but
chronologically from a previous marriage of William de Lancaster I.
(1) William Farrer, *Records of Kendale*, vol I, page 214
*1160-1170 William de Lancaster I, at the prayer of William de
Lancaster, his son and heir, grants to Alexander de Windesoure with his
daughter Agnes in marriage what he had in Haversham, Grarigg with the
appurtenances, and what he had in Morland. See Haversham, s.d.
1160-70.*
(2) Haversham s.d. 1160-1170 is found in Vol II, Records of Kendal,
page 143.
*1160- 1170 William de Lancastre I, at the prayer of William de
Lancastre, his son and heir, grants to Alexander de Windesoure with his
daughter Agnes in marriage what he had in Heversham, Grarigg with the
appurtenances, and what he had in Morland. Witnesses: Geoffrey earl
of R( ), Roger de Vallibus son of Hubert de Vallibus,
William de Lancastre the grantor's son, William the chaplain, Robert
de Montgomery, Richard de Heruie (sic), Gervase D'Eincurt, Simon de
Turs, William de Laceles, Walter de Windesoure, Robert the chamberlain,
Robert Crisp, Gilbert son of William [de Lancastre] and Jordan his
brother, Gamel the priest, Robert Mustell; Reg. of D. at Levens.*
(3) From Farrar, Records of Kendal, Vol.1, p. 130.
*1170-1180 William de Lancastre II grants to Gervase de Ainecurt 15
(pounds) worth
of land for the service of ? fee in Natland and Bothelford [extending]
to the brook of the gallows and to the bounds of Hoton and Stainton,
with Sizaritherge, Winderg and the other Winderg, the grantor's part of
Lander and that part of Socabret which Waldeve held, all which he gave
for 12 (pounds) 10s. worth of land ; and for 50s. worth of land in
arrears he delivered to the said Gervase the service of Hacatorp in
pledge for 50s., until he perfected the said 15 (pounds) worth of land.
Witnesses : Norman the sewer, Jordan the grantor's son, Gilbert the
grantor's son, Grunebald, Robert de Heriez, Anselm, Orm son of Tore,
Roger de Crofd, Roger son of [Adam, Orm son of Bernu-]lf, Robert
Mustel, William parson of Warton John the clerk, Richard the
chamberlain, W[illiam Pultypgton]; orig. D. at Sizergh.
Gillem de Lancastre quit claims to Gervase de Haencurt all rents and
services which he ought to perform to the grantor for his manors and
lands in the county of Westmorland, in exchange for the rent of 50s. in
Westmorland which Gervase has granted to the grantor. Witnesses
: Norman the sewer, Robert de Heriic, Anselyne, Orme Fitz [Thor],
Roger Ie chambarleyn, Gillem de Croft, Gillem Ie parson de Warton,
Johan clerk, [Ri]cardyn Ie Chamburleyn, Gillem Puttyngton (French) ;
orig. D. at Sizergh.*
(4) From Farrar, Records of Kendal, Vol.1, p. 167.
*1170-1180 William de Lancaster II. gave to Gervase de Ainecurt, for
his homage and service, 15 (pounds)worth of land yearly, to hold for
the service of 3 parts of one knight's fee, namely inter alia Natalund
and Bothelford [extending] unto the brook of the gallows and so the
whole field up to the way from Hoton .... to the bounds of Hoton and
Stainton; see Sizergh, p. 130.*
(5) From Farrar, Records of Kendal, Vol.1, p. 203
*1154-1189 William son of William de Lancaster gives to the brethren
of the hospital of St. Peter, York, the land called Dockerga, by bounds
(described), in exchange for land in Kirkeby in Kendale which Ketel son
of Eitred gave them and the land of Bartonheved which William, the
donor's father gave them; Cat. of Chart. R.,ii, 442.
(6) From Farrar, Records of Kendal, Vol.1, p. 222
*1154-1189 William de Lancaster II gave to Gervase de Ancourt 12
(pounds) 10s. of land in Welpaatt and Qwynfell by bounds (described).
Deed at Sizergh.*
(7) From Farrar, Records of Kendal, Vol.1, p. 231
*1154-1189 William de Lancastre II gave to the monks of Byland his part
of Borgheredale by bounds (described), to hold in alms, for the
settlement of the complaint which Wimund, late bishop of the Isles, had
against the donor's father; D. at Levens; Hist. MSS. Corn. Rep. X,
pt.iv, 323.*
(8) From Farrar, Records of Kendal, Vol.1, p. 342 Note: The appendix
references here are in Latin. If someone wants them I?ll be glad to
send.
*1170-1184 William de Lancastre II gave to William Gefrason a moiety of
Croke by bounds (described) with common of pasture between Croke and
Stirkeland, to hold for 73. 5d. yearly; Reg. of D. at Levens. See
Appendix xxvi.
1170-1184 The same William de Lancastre gave to Walter the cook the
moiety of Croke by bounds (described) with common of pasture (as
above), to hold for 3s. yearly; ib. See Appendix xxvii.*
(9) From Farrar, Records of Kendal, Vol.1, p. 342
*1170-1181 William de Lancaster II gave to Norman de Hieland, Lefnes
for 8s. rent, saving the fishery and water of Kent unto Sandpol, and
saving hawks, hart and hind, wild boar and sow. Witnesses; Helewise
the grantor's wife, Simon de Turs, Anselm, Huctred son of Osolf, Roger
son of Adam, Robert Mustel, Richard son of Alard, Jordan, Gilbert
the grantor's brother, Gilbert de Croft, John the clerk; Orig. at
Levens.*
Incidentally, the Huctred son of Osolf, are father and grandfather of
Richard de Preston who married Erneburga le Fleming daughter of the
Anselm also a Witness.
Will, if this is not enough to convince you that you have the
chronology wrong then you are far more closed minded than you accuse me
of being.
I think after my going to all this trouble that it is only fair that
you send the charter I have repeatedly asked you to post. Thanks in
advance.
Cheers,
Dix Preston