Welles of Welles Hall in Exning, Great Sampford, Fordham etc

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Welles of Welles Hall in Exning, Great Sampford, Fordham etc

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 nov 2005 19:41:23

I have been discussing off-list the Welles family of Suffolk, Essex &
Cambridgeshire who are ancestral to the later Coggeshalls of
Coggeshall. They had inherited considerable properties through
marriage with the Kemesek heiress (the Kemeseks being in turn heirs of
the Polstead family).

Herewith a brief stemma:

1. Sir Philip de Welles, bore arms: "de or, a un lion de sable od la
couwe forchie e un baston de goul" [Parl. Roll, suggesting he was from
Lincolnshire - and thus possibly related to the family of Lord Welles,
whose estate was chiefly in that county]; Lord of Fordham, Cambs, 1316;
Knight of the Shire (i.e. MP) for Cambs, 1320; summonsed from Essex to
the Great Council at Westminster, 1324; died 27 February 1332, holding
lands by the courtesy of England of his late wife, Isabel, daughter and
heiress of Edmund de Kemesek, of Fordham, Cambs, born circa 1294,
married by 1313, dead by 1325 [all from Knights of Edward I, very
kindly extracted by Kelly Leighton]. Issue:

2. Sir William de Welles, born circa 1309; of Great Sampford, Essex,
and Well Hall, Exning, Suffolk; his mother's heir, 1325, then a minor;
his father's heir, 1332, then aged 22; died 1349; married Agnes; issue:

3. Joan de Welles, born circa 8 September 1335; baptised at Great
Sampford, 8 September 1335 [her Proof of Age]; heiress of Great
Sampford, Well Hall in Exning, Fordham and East Tilbury, Essex; married
by 23 June 1351 Sir Henry de Coggeshall, MP; both died in 1375, leaving
numerous issue [see Roskell, HoP].

Is it known whether Sir Philip ties in with the family of Lord Welles,
who was seated in Lincolnshire but also held lands, eg, in Essex? What
coat of arms did they use?

MAR

Gjest

Re: Welles of Welles Hall in Exning, Great Sampford, Fordham

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 nov 2005 19:53:32

m...@btinternet.com schrieb:

1. Sir Philip de Welles, bore arms: "de or, a un lion de sable od la
couwe [queue] forchie [fourche] e un baston de goul"

Is it known whether Sir Philip ties in with the family of Lord Welles,
who was seated in Lincolnshire but also held lands, eg, in Essex? What
coat of arms did they use?

Here I go again, answering my own questions...

According to Brian Timms's excellent site, Adam de Well (died 1311)
bore "or a lion rampant, double queued sable".

He states that Adam de Well's son (sic) Philip de Well, died 1322
(sic), bore "or a lion rampant, double queued sable, a label gules",
dropping the label after his father's death. This would appear to
equate with the arms recorded in 'Knights of Edward I'.

http://www.briantimms.com/baronsletter/welles.htm

However, as I understand it, Adam, 1st Lord Welles, who died in 1311,
was succeeded by his eldest son, Robert, 2nd Baron (c1297-1320) and the
latter by his brother Adam, 3rd Lord (1304-1355), which seems to leave
little or no room for a son Philip, who was himself a father by circa
1310...

Gjest

Re: Welles of Welles Hall in Exning, Great Sampford, Fordham

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 nov 2005 20:57:14

mjcar@btinternet.com schrieb:

1. Sir Philip de Welles, bore arms: "de or, a un lion de sable od la
couwe [queue] forchie [fourche] e un baston de goul"

According to Brian Timms's excellent site, Adam de Well (died 1311)
bore "or a lion rampant, double queued sable".

He states that Adam de Well's son (sic) Philip de Well, died 1322
(sic), bore "or a lion rampant, double queued sable, a label gules",
dropping the label after his father's death.

However, as I understand it, Adam, 1st Lord Welles, who died in 1311,
was succeeded by his eldest son, Robert, 2nd Baron (c1297-1320) and the
latter by his brother Adam, 3rd Lord (1304-1355), which seems to leave
little or no room for a son Philip, who was himself a father by circa
1310...

NB According to Fox-Davies, the label as a mark of cadency or
difference was not used in this period by the eldest son exclusively,
but as a more general mark to indicate that the bearer was not head of
his house.

Gjest

Re: Welles of Welles Hall in Exning, Great Sampford, Fordham

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 nov 2005 21:11:36

m...@btinternet.com schrieb:

mjcar@btinternet.com schrieb:

1. Sir Philip de Welles, bore arms: "de or, a un lion de sable od la
couwe [queue] forchie [fourche] e un baston de goul"

According to Brian Timms's excellent site, Adam de Well (died 1311)
bore "or a lion rampant, double queued sable".

Tim Powys-Lybbe confirms this in his useful website, citing Armorial
Families 7th Ed, Vol II, p 2102, viz that the arms of Lord Welles were
"Or, a lion rampant double queued sable, langued,, etc, gules"

So, the question perhaps should be broadened: has Knights of Edward I
assigned the Welles arms to the correct Philip de Welles?

Gjest

Re: Welles of Welles Hall in Exning, Great Sampford, Fordham

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 nov 2005 21:15:09

From the Berkeley Castle muniments (A2A):

LITTLE SAMPFORD (ESSEX) - ref. BCM/B/6/6

GRANTS TO MARTIN COLEMAN, CHAPLAIN

FILE [no title] - ref. BCM/B/6/6/4 - date: [30 Oct.
1321]
[from Scope and Content] Witnesses: Sir William Poucin,
Sir Robert de Ros, Sir Philip de Welle, knights, Henry Grigge, Richard
de Taleworth, Ralph Giffard, Richard de Sampford, William de Lacre,
John de Heyham, Simon Maynard, William le Parker, Bartholomew Sparwe.

FILE [no title] - ref. BCM/B/6/6/5 - date: [30 Jan.
1324]
[from Scope and Content] Witnesses: Sir Robert de Roos,
Sir Philip de Wellis, knights, Richard de Taleworth, John Grigge,
Richard de Sampford, William de Lacre, John Gyney, John de Herinstede,
William Kok, Richard de Lyndisheye, Gilbert Larke, John Gent.


*******************************

Also from A2A, from the Earl of Ancaster's manuscripts:

Title Deeds. - ref. 2ANC1

Gayton le Marsh.

FILE - Portion of an indenture of grant. - ref. 2ANC1/13/1 -
date: Early 14c. (before 1342)
[from Scope and Content] Lord Philip de Welles to Richard
Scremby knight and Joan his wife.

FILE - Indenture of lease. (? counterpart). - ref. 2ANC1/13/2
- date: 22 February 1342
[from Scope and Content] Property: his capital messuage in
Gayton in which William son of Richard de Hormeby lived with all the
lands appurtenant which he has of the grant of Philip de Welles.

*******************

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Welles of Welles Hall in Exning, Great Sampford, Fordham

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 20 nov 2005 21:35:46

In message of 20 Nov, mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:

<snip>

Is it known whether Sir Philip ties in with the family of Lord Welles,
who was seated in Lincolnshire but also held lands, eg, in Essex? What
coat of arms did they use?

From the Dictionary of British Arms, Medieval Ordinary", Vol 1, pp.
178-9, a whole host of Welleses, 40 odd, used these arms:

Or a lion queue fourchy sable

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Welles of Welles Hall in Exning, Great Sampford, Fordham

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 20 nov 2005 21:43:26

In message of 20 Nov, mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:

m...@btinternet.com schrieb:

mjcar@btinternet.com schrieb:

1. Sir Philip de Welles, bore arms: "de or, a un lion de sable od la
couwe [queue] forchie [fourche] e un baston de goul"

According to Brian Timms's excellent site, Adam de Well (died 1311)
bore "or a lion rampant, double queued sable".

Tim Powys-Lybbe confirms this in his useful website, citing Armorial
Families 7th Ed, Vol II, p 2102, viz that the arms of Lord Welles were
"Or, a lion rampant double queued sable, langued,, etc, gules"

The langued, etc is almost taken for granted unless otherwise
delineated and thus Brian Timms is the more correct (see my previous
note).

So, the question perhaps should be broadened: has Knights of Edward I
assigned the Welles arms to the correct Philip de Welles?

One of the Welleses with these arms in the Medieval Ordinary is a
"WELLES, S Philip de" found, if I read the chronically short references
correctly, in the Stirling Roll, transcribed by S M Collins from
a manuscript in the College of Arms. I think the roll is dated 1304.

There is no Philip (de) Welle[s] in Vol 2 of this Ordinary and, of
course, Vols 3 and 4 are not due out for three or four years.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Gjest

Re: Welles of Welles Hall in Exning, Great Sampford, Fordham

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 nov 2005 23:49:50

Tim Powys-Lybbe schrieb:

One of the Welleses with these arms in the Medieval Ordinary is a
"WELLES, S Philip de" found, if I read the chronically short references
correctly, in the Stirling Roll, transcribed by S M Collins from
a manuscript in the College of Arms. I think the roll is dated 1304.

There is no Philip (de) Welle[s] in Vol 2 of this Ordinary and, of
course, Vols 3 and 4 are not due out for three or four years.

Thanks, Tim

Michael

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