Edward Hall on Lucy, countess of Kent (d. 1424)

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Chris Phillips

Edward Hall on Lucy, countess of Kent (d. 1424)

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 20 nov 2005 14:26:10

Al Magary kindly sent me the following extract from Hall's Chronicle for 9
Henry IV (1407-1408):

<<
THIS Edmond erle of Kent was in suche fauour with kyng Henry that he not
alonely aduanced and promoted him to highe offices and great preheminences,
but also by his meane and no small coste obteigned for him the eldest
doughter and one of the heires of the Lord Barnabo of Millaine brother to
Lord Galeace whose so'ne also called Galiace murderyng his vncle Barnabo
made himselfe first duke of Millaine, for which mariage Lord Barnabo paied
to him an hundred M. Duccattes at the churche of saint Marie Oueryes in
Southwarke at the day of the solempnite, by doen Alpho's de Caniola. This
Lucie after the death of her husband by whom she had no issue, was moued by
the kyng to mary with his bastard brother the Earle of Dorcet a man very
aged and il visaged, whose person nether satisfied her fantasy nor whose
face pleased her appetite, wherfore she preferryng her own mind more then
the kynges desire, delityng in hym the whiche shoulde more satisfie her
wanton pleasure then gayne her any profite, for very loue toke to husband
Henry Mortimer a goodly youg Esquyer and a bewtifull Bacheler. For which
cause the kyng was not onely with her displeased but also for mariyng
withoute his licence he seassed and fined her at a great some of money,
which fine kyng Henry the .v. bothe released and pardoned and also made him
knight and promited hym to great offices both in England and Normandye,
whiche sir Henry had issue by this Lady, Anne maried to sir Ihon Awbemond
mother to Elizabeth Chandos mother to Phillis maried to sir Dauie Halle
capitayne of Caen, she had also issue Mary maried to Ihon Cheddur and Luce
espoused to sir Ihon Cressy.

(Hall's Chronicle, 1550 ed., Henry IV chapter, fol. 29r; Ellis ed., 1809, p.
40; facsimile page at
http://dewey.library.upenn.edu/sceti/pr ... osition=65)

The marriage, on 24 January 1406/7, of Lucy, 10th [sic] and youngest
daughter of Barnabo Visconti, lord of Milan, to Edmund (de Holand), Earl of
Kent, (1382/3-1408) and Lucy's later history (she d. 1424) are covered in
some detail by Complete Peerage, vol. 7, p. 161ff.

But there is no hint in the CP account (or in the new DNB entry for Edmund)
of a later marriage, or a royal attempt to marry her to an earl of Dorset.
Presumably the earl that's meant is Thomas Beaufort - his elder brother John
Beaufort (d. 1409/10) had been created Marquess of Dorset in 1397, but was
married in the same year, and was survived by his wife.

Thomas Beaufort (who d. 1426) was married by 1403/4 to Margaret Neville, who
was still alive in 1413 but died before him. So a marriage could possibly
have been sought by him in the period 1413-1424 (though at this time he
would have been aged 50 at the most). He was created Duke of Exeter in 1416.

Can anyone shed any light on this story, or on the genealogy of any of the
other people mentioned? Sir David Hall is known to have died after the
Battle of Wakefield in 1460, and there is a suggestion that he was related
to the chronicler, but otherwise I'm at a loss to explain Hall's account.

Chris Phillips

Gjest

Re: Edward Hall on Lucy, countess of Kent (d. 1424)

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 nov 2005 00:17:21

Chris Phillips schrieb:

Al Magary kindly sent me the following extract from Hall's Chronicle for 9
Henry IV (1407-1408):

she preferryng her own mind more then
the kynges desire, delityng in hym the whiche shoulde more satisfie her
wanton pleasure then gayne her any profite, for very loue toke to husband
Henry Mortimer a goodly youg Esquyer and a bewtifull Bacheler.
whiche sir Henry had issue by this Lady, Anne maried to sir Ihon Awbemond
mother to Elizabeth Chandos mother to Phillis maried to sir Dauie Halle
capitayne of Caen, she had also issue Mary maried to Ihon Cheddur and Luce
espoused to sir Ihon Cressy.

Interesting question, Chris. Let's see if I have this right:


Lucy Visconti married 1. Thomas Holand, Earl of Kent; married 2. Sir
Henry Mortimer. Issue by second marriage:

1. Anne Mortimer, married Sir John Awbemond; had a daughter Elizabeth,
married to ... Chandos, whose daughter Phyllis Chandos married Sir
David Hall.
2. Mary Mortimer, married John Cheddar
3. Lucy Mortimer, espoused to Sir John Cressy.

I haven't been able to locate anything that would confirm or deny
Hall's account. I do note that according to PRO C1/39/18 (dated
1386-1486 which is unhelpful) states that a Sir John Cressy held "[the]
manor called Mortymer's Court in Magor", but this is presumably
accounted for by PSO 1/61/7 dated 1404 which refers to John Cressy as
"senior cousin and heir of Hugh Mortymer".

MAR

Douglas Richardson

Re: Edward Hall on Lucy, countess of Kent (d. 1424)

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 21 nov 2005 02:52:44

Birch, Cat. of Seals in the British Museum 3 (1894): 109 (seal of Lucy
Holand, Countess of Kent dated 1423-A shield of arms, per pale.,
dex., ENGLAND, sin., MILAN, with bordure argent for THOMAS of
WOODSTOCK).

No Mortimer.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Chris Phillips wrote:
Al Magary kindly sent me the following extract from Hall's Chronicle for 9
Henry IV (1407-1408):


THIS Edmond erle of Kent was in suche fauour with kyng Henry that he not
alonely aduanced and promoted him to highe offices and great preheminences,
but also by his meane and no small coste obteigned for him the eldest
doughter and one of the heires of the Lord Barnabo of Millaine brother to
Lord Galeace whose so'ne also called Galiace murderyng his vncle Barnabo
made himselfe first duke of Millaine, for which mariage Lord Barnabo paied
to him an hundred M. Duccattes at the churche of saint Marie Oueryes in
Southwarke at the day of the solempnite, by doen Alpho's de Caniola. This
Lucie after the death of her husband by whom she had no issue, was moued by
the kyng to mary with his bastard brother the Earle of Dorcet a man very
aged and il visaged, whose person nether satisfied her fantasy nor whose
face pleased her appetite, wherfore she preferryng her own mind more then
the kynges desire, delityng in hym the whiche shoulde more satisfie her
wanton pleasure then gayne her any profite, for very loue toke to husband
Henry Mortimer a goodly youg Esquyer and a bewtifull Bacheler. For which
cause the kyng was not onely with her displeased but also for mariyng
withoute his licence he seassed and fined her at a great some of money,
which fine kyng Henry the .v. bothe released and pardoned and also made him
knight and promited hym to great offices both in England and Normandye,
whiche sir Henry had issue by this Lady, Anne maried to sir Ihon Awbemond
mother to Elizabeth Chandos mother to Phillis maried to sir Dauie Halle
capitayne of Caen, she had also issue Mary maried to Ihon Cheddur and Luce
espoused to sir Ihon Cressy.

(Hall's Chronicle, 1550 ed., Henry IV chapter, fol. 29r; Ellis ed., 1809, p.
40; facsimile page at
http://dewey.library.upenn.edu/sceti/pr ... osition=65)


The marriage, on 24 January 1406/7, of Lucy, 10th [sic] and youngest
daughter of Barnabo Visconti, lord of Milan, to Edmund (de Holand), Earl of
Kent, (1382/3-1408) and Lucy's later history (she d. 1424) are covered in
some detail by Complete Peerage, vol. 7, p. 161ff.

But there is no hint in the CP account (or in the new DNB entry for Edmund)
of a later marriage, or a royal attempt to marry her to an earl of Dorset.
Presumably the earl that's meant is Thomas Beaufort - his elder brother John
Beaufort (d. 1409/10) had been created Marquess of Dorset in 1397, but was
married in the same year, and was survived by his wife.

Thomas Beaufort (who d. 1426) was married by 1403/4 to Margaret Neville, who
was still alive in 1413 but died before him. So a marriage could possibly
have been sought by him in the period 1413-1424 (though at this time he
would have been aged 50 at the most). He was created Duke of Exeter in 1416.

Can anyone shed any light on this story, or on the genealogy of any of the
other people mentioned? Sir David Hall is known to have died after the
Battle of Wakefield in 1460, and there is a suggestion that he was related
to the chronicler, but otherwise I'm at a loss to explain Hall's account.

Chris Phillips

Douglas Richardson

Re: Edward Hall on Lucy, countess of Kent (d. 1424)

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 21 nov 2005 03:06:37

Birch says the bordure argent on Lucy Holand's seal is for THOMAS OF
WOODSTOCK, but he surely meant to say EDMUND OF WOODSTOCK.

Coat of Arms 7 (1962): 18-24 gives the arms of Edmund of Woodstock:
England within a bordure argent.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Douglas Richardson wrote:
Birch, Cat. of Seals in the British Museum 3 (1894): 109 (seal of Lucy
Holand, Countess of Kent dated 1423-A shield of arms, per pale.,
dex., ENGLAND, sin., MILAN, with bordure argent for THOMAS of
WOODSTOCK).

No Mortimer.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Sutliff

Re: Edward Hall on Lucy, countess of Kent (d. 1424)

Legg inn av Sutliff » 21 nov 2005 07:18:40

The only Sir John Cressy (of Hodsock, Notts) I have died June 1383 and had a
wife named Agnes. I do not have a date of death for her so do not know if
she predeceased her husband. I need to check Payling and Thoroton to see if
I can find anything more.

Just out of curiosity does the name Phyllis not strike an odd chord for this
period? Certainly Phillipa was common, but I have never come across a
Phyllis in this period.

HS

<mjcar@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:1132528641.754540.106020@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Chris Phillips schrieb:

snip
Lucy Visconti married 1. Thomas Holand, Earl of Kent; married 2. Sir
Henry Mortimer. Issue by second marriage:

1. Anne Mortimer, married Sir John Awbemond; had a daughter Elizabeth,
married to ... Chandos, whose daughter Phyllis Chandos married Sir
David Hall.
2. Mary Mortimer, married John Cheddar
3. Lucy Mortimer, espoused to Sir John Cressy.
snip

Sutliff

Re: Edward Hall on Lucy, countess of Kent (d. 1424)

Legg inn av Sutliff » 21 nov 2005 07:43:36

Correction: this Sir Joh Cressy died August 1383 not June 1383 as in my
previous post. Sources which mention John: HOP 1386-1421 II:593 and Payling
234. Have not checked Thorton as et.

HS

"Sutliff" <suthen@redshift.com> wrote in message
news:11o2plvphkp6235@corp.supernews.com...
The only Sir John Cressy (of Hodsock, Notts) I have died June 1383 and had
a wife named Agnes. I do not have a date of death for her so do not know
if she predeceased her husband. I need to check Payling and Thoroton to
see if I can find anything more.

Just out of curiosity does the name Phyllis not strike an odd chord for
this period? Certainly Phillipa was common, but I have never come across a
Phyllis in this period.

HS

mjcar@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:1132528641.754540.106020@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Chris Phillips schrieb:

snip
Lucy Visconti married 1. Thomas Holand, Earl of Kent; married 2. Sir
Henry Mortimer. Issue by second marriage:

1. Anne Mortimer, married Sir John Awbemond; had a daughter Elizabeth,
married to ... Chandos, whose daughter Phyllis Chandos married Sir
David Hall.
2. Mary Mortimer, married John Cheddar
3. Lucy Mortimer, espoused to Sir John Cressy.
snip

Douglas Richardson

Re: Edward Hall on Lucy, countess of Kent (d. 1424)

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 21 nov 2005 09:30:09

Dear Newsgroup ~

The fabulous story in Hall's Chronicle regarding the alleged marriage
of Lucy Visconti, Countess of Kent, and Hugh Mortimer has its equally
fabulous counterpart recorded in a Hall family pedigree recorded in the
1623 Visitation of Shropshire, 1 (H.S.P. 28) (1889): 205-207.

The Hall pedigree can be found on Google Print at the following links:

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id= ... 5&pg=PA206

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id= ... 5&pg=PA207

In a footnote, the editor plainly states that Sir Frank van Halen,
K.G., who heads the pedigree "did not marry the wife here assigned to
him, and had not the children here named." In other words, the Hall
pedigree contains serious errors. The editor made no comment about
later generations in the pedigree, but I have no doubt that if the
pedigree was given close examination, it would crumble like a house of
Milanese cards.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net


Chris Phillips wrote:
Al Magary kindly sent me the following extract from Hall's Chronicle for 9
Henry IV (1407-1408):


THIS Edmond erle of Kent was in suche fauour with kyng Henry that he not
alonely aduanced and promoted him to highe offices and great preheminences,
but also by his meane and no small coste obteigned for him the eldest
doughter and one of the heires of the Lord Barnabo of Millaine brother to
Lord Galeace whose so'ne also called Galiace murderyng his vncle Barnabo
made himselfe first duke of Millaine, for which mariage Lord Barnabo paied
to him an hundred M. Duccattes at the churche of saint Marie Oueryes in
Southwarke at the day of the solempnite, by doen Alpho's de Caniola. This
Lucie after the death of her husband by whom she had no issue, was moued by
the kyng to mary with his bastard brother the Earle of Dorcet a man very
aged and il visaged, whose person nether satisfied her fantasy nor whose
face pleased her appetite, wherfore she preferryng her own mind more then
the kynges desire, delityng in hym the whiche shoulde more satisfie her
wanton pleasure then gayne her any profite, for very loue toke to husband
Henry Mortimer a goodly youg Esquyer and a bewtifull Bacheler. For which
cause the kyng was not onely with her displeased but also for mariyng
withoute his licence he seassed and fined her at a great some of money,
which fine kyng Henry the .v. bothe released and pardoned and also made him
knight and promited hym to great offices both in England and Normandye,
whiche sir Henry had issue by this Lady, Anne maried to sir Ihon Awbemond
mother to Elizabeth Chandos mother to Phillis maried to sir Dauie Halle
capitayne of Caen, she had also issue Mary maried to Ihon Cheddur and Luce
espoused to sir Ihon Cressy.

(Hall's Chronicle, 1550 ed., Henry IV chapter, fol. 29r; Ellis ed., 1809, p.
40; facsimile page at
http://dewey.library.upenn.edu/sceti/pr ... osition=65)


The marriage, on 24 January 1406/7, of Lucy, 10th [sic] and youngest
daughter of Barnabo Visconti, lord of Milan, to Edmund (de Holand), Earl of
Kent, (1382/3-1408) and Lucy's later history (she d. 1424) are covered in
some detail by Complete Peerage, vol. 7, p. 161ff.

But there is no hint in the CP account (or in the new DNB entry for Edmund)
of a later marriage, or a royal attempt to marry her to an earl of Dorset.
Presumably the earl that's meant is Thomas Beaufort - his elder brother John
Beaufort (d. 1409/10) had been created Marquess of Dorset in 1397, but was
married in the same year, and was survived by his wife.

Thomas Beaufort (who d. 1426) was married by 1403/4 to Margaret Neville, who
was still alive in 1413 but died before him. So a marriage could possibly
have been sought by him in the period 1413-1424 (though at this time he
would have been aged 50 at the most). He was created Duke of Exeter in 1416.

Can anyone shed any light on this story, or on the genealogy of any of the
other people mentioned? Sir David Hall is known to have died after the
Battle of Wakefield in 1460, and there is a suggestion that he was related
to the chronicler, but otherwise I'm at a loss to explain Hall's account.

Chris Phillips

Brad Verity

Re: Edward Hall on Lucy, countess of Kent (d. 1424)

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 21 nov 2005 09:37:04

Chris Phillips wrote:

Can anyone shed any light on this story, or on the genealogy of any of the
other people mentioned? Sir David Hall is known to have died after the
Battle of Wakefield in 1460, and there is a suggestion that he was related
to the chronicler, but otherwise I'm at a loss to explain Hall's account.

Dear Chris,

Per the 1424 IPMs taken after the death of Lucy, countess of Kent,
"Galias de Viscont is her brother and next heir and is aged 40 years
and more."

That doesn't bode well for her having had any children, at least
legitimate ones. If the king (Henry V) had pardoned her the fine for
remarrying without licence, the pardon would've been entered into one
of the rolls of Chancery (Patent, Close or Fine).

It's a curious account -- very detailed. Thanks for sharing it.

Cheers, ---------Brad

Chris Phillips

Re: Edward Hall on Lucy, countess of Kent (d. 1424)

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 21 nov 2005 10:46:40

Douglas Richardson wrote:
The fabulous story in Hall's Chronicle regarding the alleged marriage
of Lucy Visconti, Countess of Kent, and Hugh Mortimer has its equally
fabulous counterpart recorded in a Hall family pedigree recorded in the
1623 Visitation of Shropshire, 1 (H.S.P. 28) (1889): 205-207.
....
In a footnote, the editor plainly states that Sir Frank van Halen,
K.G., who heads the pedigree "did not marry the wife here assigned to
him, and had not the children here named." In other words, the Hall
pedigree contains serious errors. The editor made no comment about
later generations in the pedigree, but I have no doubt that if the
pedigree was given close examination, it would crumble like a house of
Milanese cards.

Thanks to all those who have replied, and particularly to Doug for the
reference to the pedigree in the published version of the Shropshire
visitation.

It's interesting that this pedigree is immediately followed by a much
shorter one of four generations, starting with David Hall, and a footnote
(on p. 207) that says:

"We learn from Wood's 'Athenae Oxon." that Edward Hall the Chronicler, who
died 1547, was a son of John Hall of Northall. He is supposed to have been
the inventor of the earlier portion of the pedigree given on pp. 205 and
206, and probably of the coat armour. The above pedigree of four generations
seems to be authentic, and it is the only portion recorded in the Shrewsbury
School Copy of this Visitation."

Perhaps even the final four generations should be treated with some caution.
The new DNB says that Edward Hall was the son of John and Katherine Hall,
but places his birth in the parish of St Mildred Poultry, London, describes
his father as a successful grocer who served as a warden of his company from
1512-1513, and says that several generations of Halls appear earlier in the
company's records.

Chris Phillips

Douglas Richardson

Re: Edward Hall on Lucy, countess of Kent (d. 1424)

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 21 nov 2005 19:24:03

Chris Phillips wrote:

Perhaps even the final four generations should be treated with some caution.
The new DNB says that Edward Hall was the son of John and Katherine Hall,
but places his birth in the parish of St Mildred Poultry, London, describes
his father as a successful grocer who served as a warden of his company from
1512-1513, and says that several generations of Halls appear earlier in the
company's records.

Chris Phillips

Dear Chris ~

If the new DNB is correct, It would seem that the Hall pedigree found
in the 1623 Visitation of Shropshire is almost completely worthless.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Webite: http://www.royalancestry.net

Chris Phillips

Re: Edward Hall on Lucy, countess of Kent (d. 1424)

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 21 nov 2005 20:12:14

Douglas Richardson wrote:
If the new DNB is correct, It would seem that the Hall pedigree found
in the 1623 Visitation of Shropshire is almost completely worthless.


There is a fuller discussion in the History of Parliament which, discussing
the fact that Hall represented a Shropshire seat, says:

"there is nothing to suggest that he inherited property in Shropshire nor
any clear reference in the local records either to his family or to the
place in the parish of Kinnersley called 'Northall' where according to the
visitation pedigree of 1584 it had its residence. According to the
(probably) genuine part of the pedigree accepted by the heralds in 1623,
Edward Hall's mother came from Lackford in Suffolk and his paternal
grandmother from Stow-on-the-Wold, Gloucestershire. Yet that there was some
connexion with Shropshire seems undoubted. Edward Hall's father left small
sums to a Margery Shotton of Stoke-on-Term and an Agnes Tristram of
Kinnersley, and in 1555 his mother made further bequests to her late
husband's kin 'living in Shropshire' who were known to her 'cousin Masyer';
there were Halls among the leading inhabitants of Newport near Kinnersley,
and a Thomas Hall was bailiff of Bridgnorth in 1529, 1533 and 1537 ..."

Chris Phillips

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