Rollo to the Salem Witches
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Gjest
Rollo to the Salem Witches
Hi~
I found this tree through various means. Does anyone else have this line?
I am trying to ascertain its validity.
Margaret Sypniewski
_The Courtly Lives - Runge-Sypniewski Family_
(http://www.angelfire.com/mi4/polcrt/index.html)
The Duchy of Normandy and the House of Wessex
:
GENERATION ONE:
Rollo/Hrolf the Ganger (b. 850) (reigned 911-925) was a Norwegian Viking
chieftain, he seized Rouen in 876. He invested in land on the lower Siene circa
911. He was at the castle of St. Clair-sur-Epte. Hrolf was Rollo, in Latin.
He married Gisele, the daughter of the King of France. Rollo was baptized a
Christian in a fountain fed by a spring names in honor of Saint Clair, who was
martyred in 884. Rollo's second wife was Popee, the daughter of the Count of
Bayeaux. Popee's son was William Longsword.
GENERATION TWO:
William I (925-942), "Longsword," was the son of Rollo.
......Edgar (b. 943)was known as "the Peaceful." He was King of Mercia and
Northumbria (973-975). Edgar was crowned in Bath Abbey on May 11, 973. He was
the brother of Eadwig and son of Edmund I. Edgar died on July 8, 975 (age 32)
and is buried in Glastonbury Abbey.
GENERATION THREE:
......Athelred II, "the Unready" (b. 968), was the son of Edgar and Elfrida.
He died on April 23, 1016, in London (at age 48), and was buried in St Paul's
Cathedral. Athered married (1) Elgiva (463-1002) (2) Emmas (985-1052).
GENERATION FOUR:
Richard I (942-966) known as "the Fearless," was the Duke of Normandy. He
married Gunnor of Denmark. Richard was the son of William I.
......St. Edward II, the Martyr (963-975), who was murdered by his
stepmother, Queen Elfrida. Edward's father was Edgar the Peaceful (957-975). Edward's
son was Edmund II, "Ironsides.".
GENERATION FIVE:
Richard II (996-1026), "the Good." Richard II was the son of Richard I.
...... Edmund II Ironside (989-1016), King of England, married Algitha in
1016, widow of Sigfrid, thane of East Anglia, a Danish noble. Edward was the son
of Ethered II (966-979). Edward fled to Normandy. Edward's son was known as
Edward the Exiled. Edmund died on November 30, 1016 (at age 27) and was
buried in Old St. Paul's Cathedral, on April 1016. Edmund was the son of Athelred
II.
GENERATION SIX:
Richard III (1036-1027), Duke of Normandy, was the son of Richard II.
Robert I (1027-1035), "the Magnificent," was the brother of Richard III. He
died while returning from a pilgrimage to Jerusalem in 1035.
Arlette, the daughter of the tanner of Falaise was the mother of William II
of Normandy (William I of England).
...... Edward the Exiled (1017-1057) married Agatha of Germany, daughter of
Conrad II of Franconia, Holy Roman Emperor. Edward's most famous daughter was
St. Margaret of Scotland.
GENERATION SEVEN:
...... St. Margaret (1045-1093) married Malcolm III "Canmore," King of the
Scots, (1058-1093), in 1069. Malcolm III was the eldest son of Duncan I
(1034-1040) of Scotland. Margaret was Malcolm's second wife. Malcolm was crowned,
King of the Scots, in Scone Abbey on April 25, 1058.
THE CHILDREN OF MALCOLM III WERE:
......Duncan died in 1094. Duncan was the son of Malcolm III of Scotland and
Ingibiorg, daughter of Finn Arnesson, Jarl of Holland/Earl of Orkney.
......Edward died in 1093.
......Edgar (1097-1107), King of Scots (1074-1107) Edgar was the son of
Malcolm II of Scotland and Margaret.
......Alexander I (1077-1124), King of Scots (1107-1124)was the son of
Malcolm III of Scotland and Margaret. Alexander married Sybilla (d. 1122), natural
daughter of Henry I, King of England.
......St. David I (1085-1153), King of Scots (1124-1153)was the son of
Malcolm III of Scotland and Margaret. David married Matilda (d. 1130), daughter of
Waltheof, Earl of Huntingdon.
*****Matilda (1079-1118), daughter of Malcolm III and Margaret of Scotland.
She married Henry I, King of England (1068-1135) in 1100.
......Mary (d. 1116) married Eustace III, Count of Boulogne, in 1102.
William II, the Conqueror was born in 1027 in Falaise. He was the Duke of
Normandy (1035-1087), was the son of Robert I. He was William I (1066-1087),
King of England. He married Matilda (d. 1083), daughter of Baldwin V, Count of
Flanders, in 1050. William built the abbey church of Jumieges; the abbey aux
Hommes (St. Etienne), which was begun in 1068; and the abbey aux Dames (La
Trinite).
The children of William I of England (1066-1087) and Matilda of Flanders
were:
* Robert, Duke of Normandy married Sibyl of Conversano in Italy. No
issue.
* William II "Rufus," King of England (1087-1100) ruled the Duchy of
Normandy. He died August 2, 1100, leaving no issue.
* Adela married Stephen, Count of Blois.<
* Henry I, King of England (1100-1135) received his mother's land in
Cotentin, Normandy. Henry married Matilda, daughter of Malcolm Canmore, King
of Scots and Margaret, daughter of Edgar Atheling, and great-grand-daughter of
Edmund Ironsides.
GENERATION EIGHT:
Robert II (1087-1106), "Curthose," the Duke of Normandy was the son of
William II. Robert was deposed, and died in 1134.
Wiliam II (b. 1057), King of England ("Rufus") (1087-1100) was the son of
William the Conqueror.
Henry I, King of Normandy (1100-1135) was the brother of Robert II , King of
England (1106-1135). Henry married Edith/Matilda (1079-1118), daughter of
Malcolm III of Scotland, son of Duncan I, King of Scots in 1034. Duncan was
murdered in 1040. Matilda's mother was St Margaret, daughter of Edward the Exile
(1017-1057) and Agatha.
THE CHILDREN OF HENRY I AND MATILDA WERE:
......William (d. 1120) was born February 23, 1103.
......Matilda, the Empress was born February 7, 1102, and died September 10,
1167. She is buried in the Abbey church of Bec-Holloui. She married (1) Henry
V on November 23, 1133, at Le Mans. Henry V was King of Worms in 1106. (2)
Geoffrey of Anjou (b. 1134)
CHILDREN OF GEOFFREY AND MATILDA WERE:
......William was born July 22, 1136.
......Henry II, King of England (1154-1189) who married Eleanor of Acquitane.
Matilda was only eight years old when she married. She was raised buy her
aunt Christina, the abbess of Wilton.
GENERATION NINE:
Geoffrey Plantagenet, "the Fair" was the 10th Count of Anjou(1149-1150).
Geoffrey adicated and died in 1151. Count of Maine (1129) and Duke of Normandy
(1144-1149), was the son of Fulk V (1109-1129), the younger, King of Jerusalem
(1131-1143). Geoffrey married Matilda (1103-1167), Queen of England, in
1141, daughter of Henry I. Henry I died of lamprey eel poisoning.
The Duchy of Brittany - House of Dreux:
The name Dreux comes from Durocassi, the name given to the people of the
Carnutes. The Druids/Durocasses were the subjects of the Carnutes. The Dreux
forest once housed Druid schools, and Chartres Cathedral was of Druid origin.
Chartes Cathedral was of Druid origon, thus the many pagan symbols there.
Chartes was the central sanctuary of the Carnutes. The Druid's temple was the
woods, and they gathered there once a year in the spot where Chartes presently
stands. Chartres like Mont-Saint-Michel is located on a pagan site. The Mont is
where a former Mithraic temple stood. Christians often built churches and
monasteries on top of ancient pagan sites. Cenabum/Genabum (now Orleans) was an
important military and political center of the Carnutes. There is a road
from Dreux that leads to Rouen, which made passage between these two areas
easier.
Robert I, Count of Dreux (1123-1188) married Agnes, daughter of Guida of
Beaudement.
......Henry II,Duke of Normandy and King of England (1151-1189) was the son
of Matilda, duaghter of Henry I and Geoffrey. Henry married Eleanor of
Aquitane (1122-1204), daughter of William X, Duke of Aquitaine (1126-1137).
THE CHILDREN OF HENRY II AND ELEANOR WERE:
......William (1153-1156).
......Henry (1155-1183)
......Matilda (1156-1189)
......Richard (1157-1199)
......Geoffrey (1158-1186)
......Eleanor (1163-1215)
......Joan (1165-1199)
......John (1167-1216). In 1215, the barons forced King John to sign the
Magna Carta, the charter that said that kings were not above the law.
GENERATION TEN:
Robert II of Dreux who married Alix, daughter of Constance and Guy of
Thouars. Alix was regent from 1221-1237. Alix (1203-1221) was from the Plantagenet
line. Robert died in 1250
At this time, the French believed their kings could heal the skin disease
scrofula by touch alone. Scrofula is a disorder characterized by grandular
swelling.
GENERATION ELEVEN:
Pierre (Peter) I (1213-1221), Mauclerc, de Dreux, son of Robert II of Dreux,
was the Count of Britanny. He married Alix de Thouars. Pierre was a patron
to Chartres Cathedral in France. He donated monies for many of the beautiful
stained glass windows. His wife Alix de Thours was the heiress to the Duchy of
Brittany. There seems to be a problem here with whom Alix was really married
to, the father or the son?
.......Geoffrey II, Duke of Brittany (1166-1186), was the son of Henry II of
England. He married Constance, daughter of Conan IV, Earl of Richmond in
1181. Conan (1156-1166), the younger was the son of Bertha and Alan of Richmond;
who was desposed and died in 1171. His son was Arthur I (1187-1203).
GENERATION TWELVE:
Jean I (1221-1286), "Le Roux"/the Red, son of Peter I de Dreux. Jean I
married Blanche of Champayne of the Duchy of Brittany.
-------John of England (1167-1216) took his throne in 1199. He married
Isabella (d. 1246) the daughter of Aimar Tsilifer, Count of Angouleme. Isabella
married (2) to Hugh de Lusignan, the Count of Marche, in 1220. John descends
from William I, the Conqueror. John's son was King Henry III (1207-1272), who
took the throne in 1216. (Louda, Table 2).
GENERATION THIRTEEN:
Jean II (1286 - 1305), Duke of Brittany was the son of Jean I. Jean II
married Beatrice (1242-1275). Beatrice was the daughter of King Henry III
(1207-1272). Her mother was Eleanor of Provence (1222-1291), Queen of England (1236–
1272) and daughter of Raymond Berenger V, Duke of Provence (1209-1245). On the
accession of her son Edward I (1272), she entered a nunnery and there lived
out her life. Jean was made Duke of Brittany by Philip IV of France in 1297.
The Dukes of Brittany were extinct by 1488.
The Perkins of Ufton:
GENERATION FOURTEEN:
Perkins Morley/de Morlaix de Dreaux, the Count of Brittany. Prince Pierre de
Dreux was born in 1272 in Rennes, France, and died in 1312. Pierre was the
son of Jean II.
Peter Mauclerc departed with Theobald IV, general and commander, with a vast
number of the earl of Cornwall, in 1240. They made a treaty with an.Nasir,
ruler of Transjordan. He would return with the prisoners captured at Gaza
(Hallam). GENERATION FIFTEEN:
Peter Morley alias Perkins was born in 1324 in Bretagne, France. married
Agnes Taylor (b. 1300) in 1328. Peter died in 1385 in Shropshire, England. Peter
was Sgt. to Hugh Despencer of Shipton Manor, Oxford County, England.
Peter's father was from Morlaix and there was a famous battle there on
September 30, 1342.
GENERATION SIXTEEN:
Henry Perkins (son of Peter) was born in 1350. In this case, again, Perkins
means "son of Pierre." He was born in the reign of Edward III (1312-1377).
Edward took the throne in 1327, and married Anne of Bohemia, the daughter of
Emperor Charles IV.
GENERATION SEVENTEEN:
John Perkins (son of Henry), Lord of Ufton, was born in 1375 in Madresfield,
Nottingham, England. John died in 1400, at Ufton Robert, the manor,
originally belonged to King Richard II (1377-1399). Richard was also known as Richard
of Bordeaux (in France). John was the first to receive a coat of arms. John
was the High Sheriff of the Despencer family, and Seneschal to Thomas, Duke
of Gloucester.
GENERATION EIGHTEEN:
Lord William Perkins (son of John) was born in 1380, and died in 1449. Lord
William married Margaret? in 1405.
GENERATION NINETEEN:
......Thomas Perkins (son of William) was born in 1425, in Hillmorton,
Warwickshire, England, and died before 1479. Thomas married Alice Paynell (b.
1430).
William Perkins (son of William) (1430-1495), in Hillmorton, Warwickshire,
England, is the brother of Thomas (above). William married Joanne Reade (b.
1434) in Coventry, Warwickshire, England.
GENERATION TWENTY:
Thomas Perkins (son of William) was born in 1458 in Hillmorton,
Warwickshire, England, and died on April 21, 1528, in Hillmorton. Thomas married Alyse de
Astley (b. 1461) and died on October 15, 1538.
GENERATION TWENTY-ONE:
Henry Perkins (first born son of Thomas) was born in 1500, in Hillmorton,
Warwickshire, England. Henry died on June 16, 1546 (at age 46). He married Mary
Elizabeth ? in 1546.
......William Perkins (1502-1558) married Ann Welles (b. 1515). William
Perkins, of Brimpton, was gentleman usher to the executed Lady Margaret Pole, and
later to he son, Cardinal Pole. After the Chantries Act caused the
suppression of St. Leonard's Chapel at Brimpton, William Perkins occupied Brimpton
manor as a tenant-at-will of Sir Francis Englefield. His family's close ties to
Queen Mary (Tudor) strengthened the family's loyalty of Catholicism.
......Frances Perkins (b. 1504) married Ann ? (b. 1505).
......Elizabeth Perkins (b. 1508) married ----- Bartholomew (b. 1505). They
Bartholomew family lived in Warborough, Oxfordshire, England, about 1550.
......Christopher Perkins (b. 1510)
......Margaret Perkins (b. 1512)
GENERATION TWENTY-TWO:
Thomas Perkins (son of Henry), husbandman, was born in 1527 in Hillmorton,
Warwickshire, England. Thomas died on March 23, 1591 in Hillmorton. In 1555,
he married Alice Kebble (1527) who died on August 20, 1613, in Hillmorton,
Warwickshire, England.
GENERATION TWENTY-THREE:
Henry Perkins (1555-1608) was born in 1555, in Hillmorton, Warwickshire,
England. Henry married Elizabeth Sawbridge (1555-1603), the daughter of William
Sawbridge, on November 20, 1576, in St. John the Baptist Church. Henry was
buried on March 11, 1608, in Hillmorton.
GENERATION TWENTY-FOUR:
John Perkins (son of Henry and Elizabeth Perkins) came on the Lyon, which
left England on December 1, 1960, and arrived on February 5, 1631. Their voyage
was described as tempestuous. John is listed as coming from Hilmorton,
Warwickshire, England with his wife, Judith Gator.
Passenger listing:
John Perkins of Hilmorton, Warwick, going to Boston.
......Mrs. Judith Perkins
......John Perkins [b. 1614]*
......Elizabeth Perkins [1610]
......Mary Perkins [b. 1615]
......Thomas Perkins [b. 1616]
......Jacob Perkins [b. 1624](Passengers and Ships -1631)
John Perkins of Ipswich, Massachusetts was christened December 23, 1583 in
Hillborough, Warwickshire, England. He emigrated from England to New England.
John died on September 20, 1654, in Ipswich, Essex County, Massashusetts.
John married Judith Gates/Gator on October 9, 1608, in Hillmorton. Judith was
born on March 19, 1588, in Hillmorton, Warwickshire, England. Her parents were
Michael Gater and Isabel Bailey. Judith Elizabeth died in 1684 in Ipswich.
John and Judith's daughter, Mary Perkins, was accused as a witch in Salem,
Massachusetts in 1692. John was a freeman in May 1631. In 1633, he was a settler
in Ipswich, MA. John's will was witnessed by William Bartholomew of Ipswich.
John was a representative of the General Court in 1636. John owned a large
island at the mouth of the Ipswich River, called "Perkin's Island." In 1856,
this island was still owned by the Perkins Family. His house was near Manning's
neck and close to the Ipswich river.
John's will was dated March 38, 1654, and was proven September 1654. His
estate was valued at 250 pounds, 5 shillings.
I found this tree through various means. Does anyone else have this line?
I am trying to ascertain its validity.
Margaret Sypniewski
_The Courtly Lives - Runge-Sypniewski Family_
(http://www.angelfire.com/mi4/polcrt/index.html)
The Duchy of Normandy and the House of Wessex
:
GENERATION ONE:
Rollo/Hrolf the Ganger (b. 850) (reigned 911-925) was a Norwegian Viking
chieftain, he seized Rouen in 876. He invested in land on the lower Siene circa
911. He was at the castle of St. Clair-sur-Epte. Hrolf was Rollo, in Latin.
He married Gisele, the daughter of the King of France. Rollo was baptized a
Christian in a fountain fed by a spring names in honor of Saint Clair, who was
martyred in 884. Rollo's second wife was Popee, the daughter of the Count of
Bayeaux. Popee's son was William Longsword.
GENERATION TWO:
William I (925-942), "Longsword," was the son of Rollo.
......Edgar (b. 943)was known as "the Peaceful." He was King of Mercia and
Northumbria (973-975). Edgar was crowned in Bath Abbey on May 11, 973. He was
the brother of Eadwig and son of Edmund I. Edgar died on July 8, 975 (age 32)
and is buried in Glastonbury Abbey.
GENERATION THREE:
......Athelred II, "the Unready" (b. 968), was the son of Edgar and Elfrida.
He died on April 23, 1016, in London (at age 48), and was buried in St Paul's
Cathedral. Athered married (1) Elgiva (463-1002) (2) Emmas (985-1052).
GENERATION FOUR:
Richard I (942-966) known as "the Fearless," was the Duke of Normandy. He
married Gunnor of Denmark. Richard was the son of William I.
......St. Edward II, the Martyr (963-975), who was murdered by his
stepmother, Queen Elfrida. Edward's father was Edgar the Peaceful (957-975). Edward's
son was Edmund II, "Ironsides.".
GENERATION FIVE:
Richard II (996-1026), "the Good." Richard II was the son of Richard I.
...... Edmund II Ironside (989-1016), King of England, married Algitha in
1016, widow of Sigfrid, thane of East Anglia, a Danish noble. Edward was the son
of Ethered II (966-979). Edward fled to Normandy. Edward's son was known as
Edward the Exiled. Edmund died on November 30, 1016 (at age 27) and was
buried in Old St. Paul's Cathedral, on April 1016. Edmund was the son of Athelred
II.
GENERATION SIX:
Richard III (1036-1027), Duke of Normandy, was the son of Richard II.
Robert I (1027-1035), "the Magnificent," was the brother of Richard III. He
died while returning from a pilgrimage to Jerusalem in 1035.
Arlette, the daughter of the tanner of Falaise was the mother of William II
of Normandy (William I of England).
...... Edward the Exiled (1017-1057) married Agatha of Germany, daughter of
Conrad II of Franconia, Holy Roman Emperor. Edward's most famous daughter was
St. Margaret of Scotland.
GENERATION SEVEN:
...... St. Margaret (1045-1093) married Malcolm III "Canmore," King of the
Scots, (1058-1093), in 1069. Malcolm III was the eldest son of Duncan I
(1034-1040) of Scotland. Margaret was Malcolm's second wife. Malcolm was crowned,
King of the Scots, in Scone Abbey on April 25, 1058.
THE CHILDREN OF MALCOLM III WERE:
......Duncan died in 1094. Duncan was the son of Malcolm III of Scotland and
Ingibiorg, daughter of Finn Arnesson, Jarl of Holland/Earl of Orkney.
......Edward died in 1093.
......Edgar (1097-1107), King of Scots (1074-1107) Edgar was the son of
Malcolm II of Scotland and Margaret.
......Alexander I (1077-1124), King of Scots (1107-1124)was the son of
Malcolm III of Scotland and Margaret. Alexander married Sybilla (d. 1122), natural
daughter of Henry I, King of England.
......St. David I (1085-1153), King of Scots (1124-1153)was the son of
Malcolm III of Scotland and Margaret. David married Matilda (d. 1130), daughter of
Waltheof, Earl of Huntingdon.
*****Matilda (1079-1118), daughter of Malcolm III and Margaret of Scotland.
She married Henry I, King of England (1068-1135) in 1100.
......Mary (d. 1116) married Eustace III, Count of Boulogne, in 1102.
William II, the Conqueror was born in 1027 in Falaise. He was the Duke of
Normandy (1035-1087), was the son of Robert I. He was William I (1066-1087),
King of England. He married Matilda (d. 1083), daughter of Baldwin V, Count of
Flanders, in 1050. William built the abbey church of Jumieges; the abbey aux
Hommes (St. Etienne), which was begun in 1068; and the abbey aux Dames (La
Trinite).
The children of William I of England (1066-1087) and Matilda of Flanders
were:
* Robert, Duke of Normandy married Sibyl of Conversano in Italy. No
issue.
* William II "Rufus," King of England (1087-1100) ruled the Duchy of
Normandy. He died August 2, 1100, leaving no issue.
* Adela married Stephen, Count of Blois.<
* Henry I, King of England (1100-1135) received his mother's land in
Cotentin, Normandy. Henry married Matilda, daughter of Malcolm Canmore, King
of Scots and Margaret, daughter of Edgar Atheling, and great-grand-daughter of
Edmund Ironsides.
GENERATION EIGHT:
Robert II (1087-1106), "Curthose," the Duke of Normandy was the son of
William II. Robert was deposed, and died in 1134.
Wiliam II (b. 1057), King of England ("Rufus") (1087-1100) was the son of
William the Conqueror.
Henry I, King of Normandy (1100-1135) was the brother of Robert II , King of
England (1106-1135). Henry married Edith/Matilda (1079-1118), daughter of
Malcolm III of Scotland, son of Duncan I, King of Scots in 1034. Duncan was
murdered in 1040. Matilda's mother was St Margaret, daughter of Edward the Exile
(1017-1057) and Agatha.
THE CHILDREN OF HENRY I AND MATILDA WERE:
......William (d. 1120) was born February 23, 1103.
......Matilda, the Empress was born February 7, 1102, and died September 10,
1167. She is buried in the Abbey church of Bec-Holloui. She married (1) Henry
V on November 23, 1133, at Le Mans. Henry V was King of Worms in 1106. (2)
Geoffrey of Anjou (b. 1134)
CHILDREN OF GEOFFREY AND MATILDA WERE:
......William was born July 22, 1136.
......Henry II, King of England (1154-1189) who married Eleanor of Acquitane.
Matilda was only eight years old when she married. She was raised buy her
aunt Christina, the abbess of Wilton.
GENERATION NINE:
Geoffrey Plantagenet, "the Fair" was the 10th Count of Anjou(1149-1150).
Geoffrey adicated and died in 1151. Count of Maine (1129) and Duke of Normandy
(1144-1149), was the son of Fulk V (1109-1129), the younger, King of Jerusalem
(1131-1143). Geoffrey married Matilda (1103-1167), Queen of England, in
1141, daughter of Henry I. Henry I died of lamprey eel poisoning.
The Duchy of Brittany - House of Dreux:
The name Dreux comes from Durocassi, the name given to the people of the
Carnutes. The Druids/Durocasses were the subjects of the Carnutes. The Dreux
forest once housed Druid schools, and Chartres Cathedral was of Druid origin.
Chartes Cathedral was of Druid origon, thus the many pagan symbols there.
Chartes was the central sanctuary of the Carnutes. The Druid's temple was the
woods, and they gathered there once a year in the spot where Chartes presently
stands. Chartres like Mont-Saint-Michel is located on a pagan site. The Mont is
where a former Mithraic temple stood. Christians often built churches and
monasteries on top of ancient pagan sites. Cenabum/Genabum (now Orleans) was an
important military and political center of the Carnutes. There is a road
from Dreux that leads to Rouen, which made passage between these two areas
easier.
Robert I, Count of Dreux (1123-1188) married Agnes, daughter of Guida of
Beaudement.
......Henry II,Duke of Normandy and King of England (1151-1189) was the son
of Matilda, duaghter of Henry I and Geoffrey. Henry married Eleanor of
Aquitane (1122-1204), daughter of William X, Duke of Aquitaine (1126-1137).
THE CHILDREN OF HENRY II AND ELEANOR WERE:
......William (1153-1156).
......Henry (1155-1183)
......Matilda (1156-1189)
......Richard (1157-1199)
......Geoffrey (1158-1186)
......Eleanor (1163-1215)
......Joan (1165-1199)
......John (1167-1216). In 1215, the barons forced King John to sign the
Magna Carta, the charter that said that kings were not above the law.
GENERATION TEN:
Robert II of Dreux who married Alix, daughter of Constance and Guy of
Thouars. Alix was regent from 1221-1237. Alix (1203-1221) was from the Plantagenet
line. Robert died in 1250
At this time, the French believed their kings could heal the skin disease
scrofula by touch alone. Scrofula is a disorder characterized by grandular
swelling.
GENERATION ELEVEN:
Pierre (Peter) I (1213-1221), Mauclerc, de Dreux, son of Robert II of Dreux,
was the Count of Britanny. He married Alix de Thouars. Pierre was a patron
to Chartres Cathedral in France. He donated monies for many of the beautiful
stained glass windows. His wife Alix de Thours was the heiress to the Duchy of
Brittany. There seems to be a problem here with whom Alix was really married
to, the father or the son?
.......Geoffrey II, Duke of Brittany (1166-1186), was the son of Henry II of
England. He married Constance, daughter of Conan IV, Earl of Richmond in
1181. Conan (1156-1166), the younger was the son of Bertha and Alan of Richmond;
who was desposed and died in 1171. His son was Arthur I (1187-1203).
GENERATION TWELVE:
Jean I (1221-1286), "Le Roux"/the Red, son of Peter I de Dreux. Jean I
married Blanche of Champayne of the Duchy of Brittany.
-------John of England (1167-1216) took his throne in 1199. He married
Isabella (d. 1246) the daughter of Aimar Tsilifer, Count of Angouleme. Isabella
married (2) to Hugh de Lusignan, the Count of Marche, in 1220. John descends
from William I, the Conqueror. John's son was King Henry III (1207-1272), who
took the throne in 1216. (Louda, Table 2).
GENERATION THIRTEEN:
Jean II (1286 - 1305), Duke of Brittany was the son of Jean I. Jean II
married Beatrice (1242-1275). Beatrice was the daughter of King Henry III
(1207-1272). Her mother was Eleanor of Provence (1222-1291), Queen of England (1236–
1272) and daughter of Raymond Berenger V, Duke of Provence (1209-1245). On the
accession of her son Edward I (1272), she entered a nunnery and there lived
out her life. Jean was made Duke of Brittany by Philip IV of France in 1297.
The Dukes of Brittany were extinct by 1488.
The Perkins of Ufton:
GENERATION FOURTEEN:
Perkins Morley/de Morlaix de Dreaux, the Count of Brittany. Prince Pierre de
Dreux was born in 1272 in Rennes, France, and died in 1312. Pierre was the
son of Jean II.
Peter Mauclerc departed with Theobald IV, general and commander, with a vast
number of the earl of Cornwall, in 1240. They made a treaty with an.Nasir,
ruler of Transjordan. He would return with the prisoners captured at Gaza
(Hallam). GENERATION FIFTEEN:
Peter Morley alias Perkins was born in 1324 in Bretagne, France. married
Agnes Taylor (b. 1300) in 1328. Peter died in 1385 in Shropshire, England. Peter
was Sgt. to Hugh Despencer of Shipton Manor, Oxford County, England.
Peter's father was from Morlaix and there was a famous battle there on
September 30, 1342.
GENERATION SIXTEEN:
Henry Perkins (son of Peter) was born in 1350. In this case, again, Perkins
means "son of Pierre." He was born in the reign of Edward III (1312-1377).
Edward took the throne in 1327, and married Anne of Bohemia, the daughter of
Emperor Charles IV.
GENERATION SEVENTEEN:
John Perkins (son of Henry), Lord of Ufton, was born in 1375 in Madresfield,
Nottingham, England. John died in 1400, at Ufton Robert, the manor,
originally belonged to King Richard II (1377-1399). Richard was also known as Richard
of Bordeaux (in France). John was the first to receive a coat of arms. John
was the High Sheriff of the Despencer family, and Seneschal to Thomas, Duke
of Gloucester.
GENERATION EIGHTEEN:
Lord William Perkins (son of John) was born in 1380, and died in 1449. Lord
William married Margaret? in 1405.
GENERATION NINETEEN:
......Thomas Perkins (son of William) was born in 1425, in Hillmorton,
Warwickshire, England, and died before 1479. Thomas married Alice Paynell (b.
1430).
William Perkins (son of William) (1430-1495), in Hillmorton, Warwickshire,
England, is the brother of Thomas (above). William married Joanne Reade (b.
1434) in Coventry, Warwickshire, England.
GENERATION TWENTY:
Thomas Perkins (son of William) was born in 1458 in Hillmorton,
Warwickshire, England, and died on April 21, 1528, in Hillmorton. Thomas married Alyse de
Astley (b. 1461) and died on October 15, 1538.
GENERATION TWENTY-ONE:
Henry Perkins (first born son of Thomas) was born in 1500, in Hillmorton,
Warwickshire, England. Henry died on June 16, 1546 (at age 46). He married Mary
Elizabeth ? in 1546.
......William Perkins (1502-1558) married Ann Welles (b. 1515). William
Perkins, of Brimpton, was gentleman usher to the executed Lady Margaret Pole, and
later to he son, Cardinal Pole. After the Chantries Act caused the
suppression of St. Leonard's Chapel at Brimpton, William Perkins occupied Brimpton
manor as a tenant-at-will of Sir Francis Englefield. His family's close ties to
Queen Mary (Tudor) strengthened the family's loyalty of Catholicism.
......Frances Perkins (b. 1504) married Ann ? (b. 1505).
......Elizabeth Perkins (b. 1508) married ----- Bartholomew (b. 1505). They
Bartholomew family lived in Warborough, Oxfordshire, England, about 1550.
......Christopher Perkins (b. 1510)
......Margaret Perkins (b. 1512)
GENERATION TWENTY-TWO:
Thomas Perkins (son of Henry), husbandman, was born in 1527 in Hillmorton,
Warwickshire, England. Thomas died on March 23, 1591 in Hillmorton. In 1555,
he married Alice Kebble (1527) who died on August 20, 1613, in Hillmorton,
Warwickshire, England.
GENERATION TWENTY-THREE:
Henry Perkins (1555-1608) was born in 1555, in Hillmorton, Warwickshire,
England. Henry married Elizabeth Sawbridge (1555-1603), the daughter of William
Sawbridge, on November 20, 1576, in St. John the Baptist Church. Henry was
buried on March 11, 1608, in Hillmorton.
GENERATION TWENTY-FOUR:
John Perkins (son of Henry and Elizabeth Perkins) came on the Lyon, which
left England on December 1, 1960, and arrived on February 5, 1631. Their voyage
was described as tempestuous. John is listed as coming from Hilmorton,
Warwickshire, England with his wife, Judith Gator.
Passenger listing:
John Perkins of Hilmorton, Warwick, going to Boston.
......Mrs. Judith Perkins
......John Perkins [b. 1614]*
......Elizabeth Perkins [1610]
......Mary Perkins [b. 1615]
......Thomas Perkins [b. 1616]
......Jacob Perkins [b. 1624](Passengers and Ships -1631)
John Perkins of Ipswich, Massachusetts was christened December 23, 1583 in
Hillborough, Warwickshire, England. He emigrated from England to New England.
John died on September 20, 1654, in Ipswich, Essex County, Massashusetts.
John married Judith Gates/Gator on October 9, 1608, in Hillmorton. Judith was
born on March 19, 1588, in Hillmorton, Warwickshire, England. Her parents were
Michael Gater and Isabel Bailey. Judith Elizabeth died in 1684 in Ipswich.
John and Judith's daughter, Mary Perkins, was accused as a witch in Salem,
Massachusetts in 1692. John was a freeman in May 1631. In 1633, he was a settler
in Ipswich, MA. John's will was witnessed by William Bartholomew of Ipswich.
John was a representative of the General Court in 1636. John owned a large
island at the mouth of the Ipswich River, called "Perkin's Island." In 1856,
this island was still owned by the Perkins Family. His house was near Manning's
neck and close to the Ipswich river.
John's will was dated March 38, 1654, and was proven September 1654. His
estate was valued at 250 pounds, 5 shillings.
-
Gjest
Re: Rollo to the Salem Witches
Vondoering@aol.com schrieb:
Hm, it's a bit of a jumble, e.g.
Apart from anything else, there are mis-numbered generations here.
Richard I, son of William I, should be your Generation Three, not Four.
He was buried several months before he died? Poor chap!
Robert 'Curthose' did leave issue, for what it's worth.
What evidence is there that the Perkins family was descended in the
male line from the Counts of Brittany, just out of interest?
Is 1324 a typo for his birthdate? You say his father died in 1312, and
that he married in 1328.
But his mother was born in 1300?
No; Edward III married Philippa of Hainault; his grandson, Richard II,
married Anne of Bohemia.
What was that coat of arms? If he descended from the Dreux Counts of
Brittany in the male line, wouldn't he have been entitled to use their
arms?
If his father was born in 1375, how was he born in 1380? By what means
was he styled "Lord William Perkins"?
How did he die twice, in April 1528 and October 1538?
There is a fair amount of extraneous material in this pedigree, which
makes it more difficult to see what is essentially being claimed. The
mistakes and inconsistencies also makes the remainder hard to believe.
It would be useful to cite sources - for instance, the exact dates
given for early births and deaths seem unusual.
Cheers
Michael
Hi~
I found this tree through various means. Does anyone else have this line?
I am trying to ascertain its validity.
Hm, it's a bit of a jumble, e.g.
GENERATION TWO:
William I (925-942), "Longsword," was the son of Rollo.
GENERATION FOUR:
Richard I (942-966) known as "the Fearless,". Richard was the son of William I.
Apart from anything else, there are mis-numbered generations here.
Richard I, son of William I, should be your Generation Three, not Four.
Edmund died on November 30, 1016 (at age 27) and was
buried in Old St. Paul's Cathedral, on April 1016.
He was buried several months before he died? Poor chap!
William II, the Conqueror was born in 1027 in Falaise. The children of William
and Matilda of Flanders were:
* Robert, Duke of Normandy married Sibyl of Conversano in Italy. No
issue.
Robert 'Curthose' did leave issue, for what it's worth.
GENERATION FOURTEEN:
Perkins Morley/de Morlaix de Dreaux, the Count of Brittany. Prince Pierre de
Dreux was born in 1272 in Rennes, France, and died in 1312. Pierre was the
son of Jean II.
What evidence is there that the Perkins family was descended in the
male line from the Counts of Brittany, just out of interest?
GENERATION FIFTEEN:
Peter Morley alias Perkins was born in 1324 in Bretagne, France. married
Agnes Taylor (b. 1300) in 1328. Peter died in 1385 in Shropshire, England.
Is 1324 a typo for his birthdate? You say his father died in 1312, and
that he married in 1328.
GENERATION SIXTEEN:
Henry Perkins (son of Peter) was born in 1350.
But his mother was born in 1300?
He was born in the reign of Edward III (1312-1377).
Edward took the throne in 1327, and married Anne of Bohemia, the daughter of
Emperor Charles IV.
No; Edward III married Philippa of Hainault; his grandson, Richard II,
married Anne of Bohemia.
GENERATION SEVENTEEN:
John Perkins (son of Henry), Lord of Ufton, was born in 1375 in Madresfield,
John was the first to receive a coat of arms.
What was that coat of arms? If he descended from the Dreux Counts of
Brittany in the male line, wouldn't he have been entitled to use their
arms?
GENERATION EIGHTEEN:
Lord William Perkins (son of John) was born in 1380,
If his father was born in 1375, how was he born in 1380? By what means
was he styled "Lord William Perkins"?
GENERATION TWENTY:
Thomas Perkins (son of William) was born in 1458 in Hillmorton,
Warwickshire, England, and died on April 21, 1528, in Hillmorton. Thomas married Alyse de
Astley (b. 1461) and died on October 15, 1538.
How did he die twice, in April 1528 and October 1538?
There is a fair amount of extraneous material in this pedigree, which
makes it more difficult to see what is essentially being claimed. The
mistakes and inconsistencies also makes the remainder hard to believe.
It would be useful to cite sources - for instance, the exact dates
given for early births and deaths seem unusual.
Cheers
Michael
-
Gjest
Re: Rollo to the Salem Witches
I descend from John and Judith (Gater) Perkins. To my knowledge the
line ends with the Thomas Perkins b.c. 1475 at Hillmorton and died
April 1528 there. His parentage is unknown. The best sources for this
are:
"Ancestry of Dudley Wildes" by Walter Goodwin Davis (1959)
"The Ancestry of Thomas Bradbury (1611-1695) and His Wife Mary
(Perkins) Bradbury (1615-1700) of Salisbury, Massachusetts" by John
Brooks Threlfall (1988)
I doubt very much that either Davis or Threlfall missed a royal line if
it were there.
Martin
line ends with the Thomas Perkins b.c. 1475 at Hillmorton and died
April 1528 there. His parentage is unknown. The best sources for this
are:
"Ancestry of Dudley Wildes" by Walter Goodwin Davis (1959)
"The Ancestry of Thomas Bradbury (1611-1695) and His Wife Mary
(Perkins) Bradbury (1615-1700) of Salisbury, Massachusetts" by John
Brooks Threlfall (1988)
I doubt very much that either Davis or Threlfall missed a royal line if
it were there.
Martin
-
steven perkins
Re: Rollo to the Salem Witches
On 19 Nov 2005 07:51:24 -0800, mjcar@btinternet.com
<mjcar@btinternet.com> wrote:
As far as I have been able to determine, there is no evidence that
Perter Morley (de Morlaix in some sources) alias Perkins was related
to the Counts of Brittany. He is associated with another Morley in
the documents I have found. See Mary E Sharpe, _The History of Ufton
Court and the Perkins Family_.
Recent DNA studies seem to indicate that Edward perkins of New Haven
was not related the the John and Abraham Perkins families of MA and
NH. I say seem, since we have only been able to test descendants of
one of Edward's three sons. I and they are in haplogroup R1a1, and the
John and Abraham Perkins descendants are in haplogroup I. Donald Line
Jacobus descended from Edward Perkins and was not able to find his
ancestry. There is a diary entry which makes Edward a half-brother of
Rev William Perkins of Topsfield, MA. I am looking for a descendant
of the Rev William to DNA test.
http://freepaqges.genealogy.rootsweb.co ... nsDNA.html
http://www.familytreedna.com/pulic/Parkins%20Perkins/
Doug McDonald and I are genetic matches with the Somerled signature.
Regards,
Steven C. Perkins
--
Steven C. Perkins SCPerkins@gmail.com
http://stevencperkins.com/
http://intelligent-internet.info/
http://jgg-online.blogspot.com/
http://stevencperkins.com/genealogy.html
<mjcar@btinternet.com> wrote:
Vondoering@aol.com schrieb:
Hi~
I found this tree through various means. Does anyone else have this line?
I am trying to ascertain its validity.
Hm, it's a bit of a jumble, e.g.
GENERATION SEVENTEEN:
John Perkins (son of Henry), Lord of Ufton, was born in 1375 in Madresfield,
John was the first to receive a coat of arms.
What was that coat of arms? If he descended from the Dreux Counts of
Brittany in the male line, wouldn't he have been entitled to use their
arms?
As far as I have been able to determine, there is no evidence that
Perter Morley (de Morlaix in some sources) alias Perkins was related
to the Counts of Brittany. He is associated with another Morley in
the documents I have found. See Mary E Sharpe, _The History of Ufton
Court and the Perkins Family_.
Recent DNA studies seem to indicate that Edward perkins of New Haven
was not related the the John and Abraham Perkins families of MA and
NH. I say seem, since we have only been able to test descendants of
one of Edward's three sons. I and they are in haplogroup R1a1, and the
John and Abraham Perkins descendants are in haplogroup I. Donald Line
Jacobus descended from Edward Perkins and was not able to find his
ancestry. There is a diary entry which makes Edward a half-brother of
Rev William Perkins of Topsfield, MA. I am looking for a descendant
of the Rev William to DNA test.
http://freepaqges.genealogy.rootsweb.co ... nsDNA.html
http://www.familytreedna.com/pulic/Parkins%20Perkins/
Doug McDonald and I are genetic matches with the Somerled signature.
Regards,
Steven C. Perkins
GENERATION EIGHTEEN:
Lord William Perkins (son of John) was born in 1380,
If his father was born in 1375, how was he born in 1380? By what means
was he styled "Lord William Perkins"?
GENERATION TWENTY:
Thomas Perkins (son of William) was born in 1458 in Hillmorton,
Warwickshire, England, and died on April 21, 1528, in Hillmorton. Thomas married Alyse de
Astley (b. 1461) and died on October 15, 1538.
How did he die twice, in April 1528 and October 1538?
There is a fair amount of extraneous material in this pedigree, which
makes it more difficult to see what is essentially being claimed. The
mistakes and inconsistencies also makes the remainder hard to believe.
It would be useful to cite sources - for instance, the exact dates
given for early births and deaths seem unusual.
Cheers
Michael
--
Steven C. Perkins SCPerkins@gmail.com
http://stevencperkins.com/
http://intelligent-internet.info/
http://jgg-online.blogspot.com/
http://stevencperkins.com/genealogy.html
-
John Brandon
Re: Rollo to the Salem Witches
mhollick@mac.com wrote:
I know I have seen a pedigree chart of some Perkins family from
Leicestershire in Nicholls' _Leicestershire_ which shows a descending
branch to be "Perkins of Hillmorton." (It may be completely
inaccurate, of course ...)
I descend from John and Judith (Gater) Perkins. To my knowledge the
line ends with the Thomas Perkins b.c. 1475 at Hillmorton and died
April 1528 there. His parentage is unknown. The best sources for this
are:
I know I have seen a pedigree chart of some Perkins family from
Leicestershire in Nicholls' _Leicestershire_ which shows a descending
branch to be "Perkins of Hillmorton." (It may be completely
inaccurate, of course ...)
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Rollo to the Salem Witches
Vondoering@aol.com wrote:
As has been pointed out, several ancestral lines are presented together,
making it a little hard to figure out, but the crux seems to be . . .
I strongly suspect that this Morley/Dreux link is pure invention. If the
family really was Morley, it is likely to derive from an English place
name. The name breaks down to its Anglo-Saxon roots: Mor - ley
(-leigh), which means basically, marshy field, IIRC. Perkins is also a
purely English name, meaning "son of little Peter". Basically, this is
a typical pattern - the family is traced as far as possible in reliable
(or not so reliable) documents, and then they look about for an
important family to concoct a connection to.
taf
Hi~
I found this tree through various means. Does anyone else have this line?
I am trying to ascertain its validity.
As has been pointed out, several ancestral lines are presented together,
making it a little hard to figure out, but the crux seems to be . . .
The Perkins of Ufton:
GENERATION FOURTEEN:
Perkins Morley/de Morlaix de Dreaux, the Count of Brittany. Prince Pierre de
Dreux was born in 1272 in Rennes, France, and died in 1312. Pierre was the
son of Jean II.
Peter Mauclerc departed with Theobald IV, general and commander, with a vast
number of the earl of Cornwall, in 1240. They made a treaty with an.Nasir,
ruler of Transjordan. He would return with the prisoners captured at Gaza
(Hallam). GENERATION FIFTEEN:
Peter Morley alias Perkins was born in 1324 in Bretagne, France. married
Agnes Taylor (b. 1300) in 1328. Peter died in 1385 in Shropshire, England. Peter
was Sgt. to Hugh Despencer of Shipton Manor, Oxford County, England.
Peter's father was from Morlaix and there was a famous battle there on
September 30, 1342.
I strongly suspect that this Morley/Dreux link is pure invention. If the
family really was Morley, it is likely to derive from an English place
name. The name breaks down to its Anglo-Saxon roots: Mor - ley
(-leigh), which means basically, marshy field, IIRC. Perkins is also a
purely English name, meaning "son of little Peter". Basically, this is
a typical pattern - the family is traced as far as possible in reliable
(or not so reliable) documents, and then they look about for an
important family to concoct a connection to.
taf
-
Terry
Re: Rollo to the Salem Witches
Do you have much information on the Perkins family? My mother is a Perkins,
but the fertherest we can go back is Thomas Perkins whom they believe was
born about 1791 in Va.
Thanks
Terry L. Mair
Mair's Photography
158 South 580 East
Midway, Utah 84049
435-654-3607
http://www.mairsphotography.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <mhollick@mac.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2005 9:08 AM
Subject: Re: Rollo to the Salem Witches
but the fertherest we can go back is Thomas Perkins whom they believe was
born about 1791 in Va.
Thanks
Terry L. Mair
Mair's Photography
158 South 580 East
Midway, Utah 84049
435-654-3607
http://www.mairsphotography.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <mhollick@mac.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2005 9:08 AM
Subject: Re: Rollo to the Salem Witches
I descend from John and Judith (Gater) Perkins. To my knowledge the
line ends with the Thomas Perkins b.c. 1475 at Hillmorton and died
April 1528 there. His parentage is unknown. The best sources for this
are:
"Ancestry of Dudley Wildes" by Walter Goodwin Davis (1959)
"The Ancestry of Thomas Bradbury (1611-1695) and His Wife Mary
(Perkins) Bradbury (1615-1700) of Salisbury, Massachusetts" by John
Brooks Threlfall (1988)
I doubt very much that either Davis or Threlfall missed a royal line if
it were there.
Martin
-
Terry
Re: Rollo to the Salem Witches
Really, I had no idea any Perkins' came from Scotland!
Terry L. Mair
Mair's Photography
158 South 580 East
Midway, Utah 84049
435-654-3607
http://www.mairsphotography.com
Terry L. Mair
Mair's Photography
158 South 580 East
Midway, Utah 84049
435-654-3607
http://www.mairsphotography.com
Doug McDonald and I are genetic matches with the Somerled signature.
Regards,
Steven C. Perkins
GENERATION EIGHTEEN:
Lord William Perkins (son of John) was born in 1380,
If his father was born in 1375, how was he born in 1380? By what means
was he styled "Lord William Perkins"?
GENERATION TWENTY:
Thomas Perkins (son of William) was born in 1458 in Hillmorton,
Warwickshire, England, and died on April 21, 1528, in Hillmorton.
Thomas married Alyse de
Astley (b. 1461) and died on October 15, 1538.
How did he die twice, in April 1528 and October 1538?
There is a fair amount of extraneous material in this pedigree, which
makes it more difficult to see what is essentially being claimed. The
mistakes and inconsistencies also makes the remainder hard to believe.
It would be useful to cite sources - for instance, the exact dates
given for early births and deaths seem unusual.
Cheers
Michael
--
Steven C. Perkins SCPerkins@gmail.com
http://stevencperkins.com/
http://intelligent-internet.info/
http://jgg-online.blogspot.com/
http://stevencperkins.com/genealogy.html
-
John Brandon
Re: Rollo to the Salem Witches
Here is some interesting stuff on the family of Perkins of Topsfield,
Mass. ...
http://tinyurl.com/8jl7e
Mass. ...
http://tinyurl.com/8jl7e
-
Doug McDonald
Re: Rollo to the Salem Witches
John Brandon wrote:
Very interesting indeed! These folks MAY be, according to Steve Perkins,
McDonalds! If there are for-sure living male line descendants a DNA test
would tell; they would match Steve and me. (Unless, of course, there
were an NPE between the Topsfield peopel and Steve himself.) If in fact
this is Steve's male line, it would be very interesting indeed to see
how this Norwegian/Viking/Somerled line got down into England.
However, I'm sure Steve has pursued this line as good as can be done.
Doug McDonald
Here is some interesting stuff on the family of Perkins of Topsfield,
Mass. ...
http://tinyurl.com/8jl7e
Very interesting indeed! These folks MAY be, according to Steve Perkins,
McDonalds! If there are for-sure living male line descendants a DNA test
would tell; they would match Steve and me. (Unless, of course, there
were an NPE between the Topsfield peopel and Steve himself.) If in fact
this is Steve's male line, it would be very interesting indeed to see
how this Norwegian/Viking/Somerled line got down into England.
However, I'm sure Steve has pursued this line as good as can be done.
Doug McDonald
-
steven perkins
Fwd: Rollo to the Salem Witches
From: steven perkins <scperkins@gmail.com>
Date: Nov 21, 2005 6:06 PM
Subject: Re: Rollo to the Salem Witches
To: Doug McDonald <mcdonald@snpoam_scs.uiuc.edu>
As Doug says, IF I can find a male Perkins descendant of Rev William
Perkins, and IF i can find some descendants of the other sons of
Edward, to insure that my DNA signature does represent Edward's, then
we can settle the question of the possible origin of Edward Perkins of
New Haven as a son of William Perkins of London, Merchant Taylor.
Still looking.
I have a preliminary page on the Descendants of Rev Capt William
Perkins linked at this location:
http://stevencperkins.com/genealogy.html
Regards,
Steven C. Perkins
On 11/21/05, Doug McDonald <mcdonald@snpoam_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote:
--
Steven C. Perkins SCPerkins@gmail.com
http://stevencperkins.com/
http://intelligent-internet.info/
http://jgg-online.blogspot.com/
http://stevencperkins.com/genealogy.html
Date: Nov 21, 2005 6:06 PM
Subject: Re: Rollo to the Salem Witches
To: Doug McDonald <mcdonald@snpoam_scs.uiuc.edu>
As Doug says, IF I can find a male Perkins descendant of Rev William
Perkins, and IF i can find some descendants of the other sons of
Edward, to insure that my DNA signature does represent Edward's, then
we can settle the question of the possible origin of Edward Perkins of
New Haven as a son of William Perkins of London, Merchant Taylor.
Still looking.
I have a preliminary page on the Descendants of Rev Capt William
Perkins linked at this location:
http://stevencperkins.com/genealogy.html
Regards,
Steven C. Perkins
On 11/21/05, Doug McDonald <mcdonald@snpoam_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote:
John Brandon wrote:
Here is some interesting stuff on the family of Perkins of Topsfield,
Mass. ...
http://tinyurl.com/8jl7e
Very interesting indeed! These folks MAY be, according to Steve Perkins,
McDonalds! If there are for-sure living male line descendants a DNA test
would tell; they would match Steve and me. (Unless, of course, there
were an NPE between the Topsfield peopel and Steve himself.) If in fact
this is Steve's male line, it would be very interesting indeed to see
how this Norwegian/Viking/Somerled line got down into England.
However, I'm sure Steve has pursued this line as good as can be done.
Doug McDonald
--
Steven C. Perkins SCPerkins@gmail.com
http://stevencperkins.com/
http://intelligent-internet.info/
http://jgg-online.blogspot.com/
http://stevencperkins.com/genealogy.html
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Fwd: Rollo to the Salem Witches
steven perkins wrote:
How so? Why not nephew, cousin, or distant agnatic kinsman?
taf
As Doug says, IF I can find a male Perkins descendant of Rev William
Perkins, and IF i can find some descendants of the other sons of
Edward, to insure that my DNA signature does represent Edward's, then
we can settle the question of the possible origin of Edward Perkins of
New Haven as a son of William Perkins of London, Merchant Taylor.
How so? Why not nephew, cousin, or distant agnatic kinsman?
taf
-
steven perkins
Re: Fwd: Rollo to the Salem Witches
On 11/22/05, Todd A. Farmerie <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:
Perkins surname and a documented line back to William Perkins,
merchant taylor of London, or his siblings or ancestors or other male
Perkins surnamed relatives, could be used for the test. As far as I
have been able to determine, the only possible candidates are male
Perkins descendants of Rev William Perkins of Topsfield and the same
from Edward Perkins of New Haven.
The hypotheses on Edward Perkins origin are that 1) he was part of the
Hillmorton Perkins families or 2) he is the half-brother of Rev
William Perkins or 3) he is a Scott who took the Perkins surname to
hide from the English due to the Scottish uprisings in the 1640s.
1 appears to be disproved by the preliminary results of the Y DNA
tests showing the descendnats of Abraham and John Perkins of MA and NH
are in haplogroup I and the so far tested descendnats of Edward
Perkins are in haplogroup R1a1.
2 is what I am working on in the protocol described below.
3 is still a possibility and the protocol will help with this if the
descendants of Johnathan and David Perkins match each other and do not
match the descendnats of John. That would point to a non-paternity
event prior to 1701.the date of the birth of the person everyone so
far tested descends from. That my Y DNA matches that of the Chiefs of
Clan Donald, descendants of Somerled, tends to point in this direction
at the moment.
The protocol I am trying to develop is in two steps:
A) Test descendants of all three sons of Edward to be sure they all
match and that we have Edward's Y DNA signature. At this point we
have tested descendants of John Perkins and are looking for
descendants of Jonathan and David. I am in the 1880 census now and
have several lines to take through the 1930 Census and one line in
Ontario, Canada.
b) Test descendants of Rev William Perins sons to see if they match.
I have just started on tracing his descendants. As far as I can
determine, there is no published study of this family that goes beyond
his GG-Grandchildren in the Perkins lines. SInce one daughter married
a Bradstreet, there are a number of published studies of that
descendant line, but that does not trace the Y DNA and does not help
my research.
See, the PDF files linked from my genealogy web page at
http://stevencperkins.com/genealogy.html for the descendants of the
three sons of Edward Perkins and Rev William Perkins.
Any leads to a descendant/s of Rev William Perkins of Topsfield will
be most welcome.
Thanks,
Steven C. Perkins
--
Steven C. Perkins SCPerkins@gmail.com
http://stevencperkins.com/
http://intelligent-internet.info/
http://jgg-online.blogspot.com/
http://stevencperkins.com/genealogy.html
steven perkins wrote:
As Doug says, IF I can find a male Perkins descendant of Rev William
Perkins, and IF i can find some descendants of the other sons of
Edward, to insure that my DNA signature does represent Edward's, then
we can settle the question of the possible origin of Edward Perkins of
New Haven as a son of William Perkins of London, Merchant Taylor.
How so? Why not nephew, cousin, or distant agnatic kinsman?
taf
As Todd knows, being a PHD candidate in genetics, any male with the
Perkins surname and a documented line back to William Perkins,
merchant taylor of London, or his siblings or ancestors or other male
Perkins surnamed relatives, could be used for the test. As far as I
have been able to determine, the only possible candidates are male
Perkins descendants of Rev William Perkins of Topsfield and the same
from Edward Perkins of New Haven.
The hypotheses on Edward Perkins origin are that 1) he was part of the
Hillmorton Perkins families or 2) he is the half-brother of Rev
William Perkins or 3) he is a Scott who took the Perkins surname to
hide from the English due to the Scottish uprisings in the 1640s.
1 appears to be disproved by the preliminary results of the Y DNA
tests showing the descendnats of Abraham and John Perkins of MA and NH
are in haplogroup I and the so far tested descendnats of Edward
Perkins are in haplogroup R1a1.
2 is what I am working on in the protocol described below.
3 is still a possibility and the protocol will help with this if the
descendants of Johnathan and David Perkins match each other and do not
match the descendnats of John. That would point to a non-paternity
event prior to 1701.the date of the birth of the person everyone so
far tested descends from. That my Y DNA matches that of the Chiefs of
Clan Donald, descendants of Somerled, tends to point in this direction
at the moment.
The protocol I am trying to develop is in two steps:
A) Test descendants of all three sons of Edward to be sure they all
match and that we have Edward's Y DNA signature. At this point we
have tested descendants of John Perkins and are looking for
descendants of Jonathan and David. I am in the 1880 census now and
have several lines to take through the 1930 Census and one line in
Ontario, Canada.
b) Test descendants of Rev William Perins sons to see if they match.
I have just started on tracing his descendants. As far as I can
determine, there is no published study of this family that goes beyond
his GG-Grandchildren in the Perkins lines. SInce one daughter married
a Bradstreet, there are a number of published studies of that
descendant line, but that does not trace the Y DNA and does not help
my research.
See, the PDF files linked from my genealogy web page at
http://stevencperkins.com/genealogy.html for the descendants of the
three sons of Edward Perkins and Rev William Perkins.
Any leads to a descendant/s of Rev William Perkins of Topsfield will
be most welcome.
Thanks,
Steven C. Perkins
--
Steven C. Perkins SCPerkins@gmail.com
http://stevencperkins.com/
http://intelligent-internet.info/
http://jgg-online.blogspot.com/
http://stevencperkins.com/genealogy.html
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Fwd: Rollo to the Salem Witches
steven perkins wrote:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
If this as intended to describe me, it missed the mark.
I am not asking about their use for the test - what I am asking is, if
your line matches that of Rev. William, why must yours be close kin of
his rather than distant kin (who would still share the same haplotype)?
Why are these the only possibilities? How have you identified all other
alternatives, let alone eliminted them?
4) none of the above.
Process of elimination only works if _all_ possibilities are included in
the analysis. Simply listing various guesses and knocking out those
that don't fit may tell you which is most likely, _among those guesses_,
but cannot prove a relationship - cannot "settle the question".
As an example (partly hypothetical for the sake of illustration but
based on a real example), there is a family in Wisconsin that came from
England in 1850, and a second family of the same surname from Rhode
Island tracing there back to the 1640s. Descendants of both show up in
the Dakotas by 1880. For the sake of this example, let's assume that
the two have different haplotypes. We should be able to test the
descendants of each of these Dakota families, and see if they match the
Rhode Island or the England/Wisconsin haplotype, and thereby "prove"
which they descend from. Well, were you to do that with one of the
Dakota groups, you would find a perfect match to the Wisconsin group,
and thereby conclude that the Dakota founder descends from the Wisconsin
immigrant - that is, you would if there wasn't a surviving obituary for
this Dakota founder, which explicitly calls him _nephew_ of the
Wisconsin immigrant who followed his uncle. This method of 'proof by
haplotype matching' would have produced the _wrong_ answer, and while in
this case we know why, the shared connection between the one known
immigrant and the wildcard family need not be as close as uncle and
nephew - they could be separated by hundreds of years. In fact, in the
case I describe, we assume that the England/Wisconsin and Rhode Island
groups would have different haplotypes, but while they came to America
200 years apart, they came from the same part of England and may derive
from the same family, and thus any 'process of elimination' analysis
involving this Wisconsin group could be confused by a member of the
Rhode Island group moving into the area, or any novel immigrant from
England, Australia, New Zealand or elsewhere in the US representing the
same agnatic family from which the Rhode Island and Wisconsin groups
derived.
Simply put, only in rare instances can a descendants' haplotype analysis
alone _prove_ (with a degree of reliability worthy of the term "proof")
a specific genealogical relationship - it can only eliminate incorrect
ones. Given the incompleteness and imperfect accuracy of the historical
record, you simply cannot (in most cases) eliminate all of the other
alternatives and thereby "settle the question".
taf
On 11/22/05, Todd A. Farmerie <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:
steven perkins wrote:
As Doug says, IF I can find a male Perkins descendant of Rev William
Perkins, and IF i can find some descendants of the other sons of
Edward, to insure that my DNA signature does represent Edward's, then
we can settle the question of the possible origin of Edward Perkins of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
New Haven as a son of William Perkins of London, Merchant Taylor.
How so? Why not nephew, cousin, or distant agnatic kinsman?
As Todd knows, being a PHD candidate in genetics, any male with the
If this as intended to describe me, it missed the mark.
Perkins surname and a documented line back to William Perkins,
merchant taylor of London, or his siblings or ancestors or other male
Perkins surnamed relatives, could be used for the test.
I am not asking about their use for the test - what I am asking is, if
your line matches that of Rev. William, why must yours be close kin of
his rather than distant kin (who would still share the same haplotype)?
As far as I
have been able to determine, the only possible candidates are male
Perkins descendants of Rev William Perkins of Topsfield and the same
from Edward Perkins of New Haven.
Why are these the only possibilities? How have you identified all other
alternatives, let alone eliminted them?
The hypotheses on Edward Perkins origin are that 1) he was part of the
Hillmorton Perkins families or 2) he is the half-brother of Rev
William Perkins or 3) he is a Scott who took the Perkins surname to
hide from the English due to the Scottish uprisings in the 1640s.
4) none of the above.
1 appears to be disproved by the preliminary results of the Y DNA
2 is what I am working on in the protocol described below.
3 is still a possibility and the protocol will help with this if the
descendants of Johnathan and David Perkins match each other and do not
match the descendnats of John.
Process of elimination only works if _all_ possibilities are included in
the analysis. Simply listing various guesses and knocking out those
that don't fit may tell you which is most likely, _among those guesses_,
but cannot prove a relationship - cannot "settle the question".
As an example (partly hypothetical for the sake of illustration but
based on a real example), there is a family in Wisconsin that came from
England in 1850, and a second family of the same surname from Rhode
Island tracing there back to the 1640s. Descendants of both show up in
the Dakotas by 1880. For the sake of this example, let's assume that
the two have different haplotypes. We should be able to test the
descendants of each of these Dakota families, and see if they match the
Rhode Island or the England/Wisconsin haplotype, and thereby "prove"
which they descend from. Well, were you to do that with one of the
Dakota groups, you would find a perfect match to the Wisconsin group,
and thereby conclude that the Dakota founder descends from the Wisconsin
immigrant - that is, you would if there wasn't a surviving obituary for
this Dakota founder, which explicitly calls him _nephew_ of the
Wisconsin immigrant who followed his uncle. This method of 'proof by
haplotype matching' would have produced the _wrong_ answer, and while in
this case we know why, the shared connection between the one known
immigrant and the wildcard family need not be as close as uncle and
nephew - they could be separated by hundreds of years. In fact, in the
case I describe, we assume that the England/Wisconsin and Rhode Island
groups would have different haplotypes, but while they came to America
200 years apart, they came from the same part of England and may derive
from the same family, and thus any 'process of elimination' analysis
involving this Wisconsin group could be confused by a member of the
Rhode Island group moving into the area, or any novel immigrant from
England, Australia, New Zealand or elsewhere in the US representing the
same agnatic family from which the Rhode Island and Wisconsin groups
derived.
Simply put, only in rare instances can a descendants' haplotype analysis
alone _prove_ (with a degree of reliability worthy of the term "proof")
a specific genealogical relationship - it can only eliminate incorrect
ones. Given the incompleteness and imperfect accuracy of the historical
record, you simply cannot (in most cases) eliminate all of the other
alternatives and thereby "settle the question".
taf
-
steven perkins
Fwd: Fwd: Rollo to the Salem Witches
Reply went only to Todd.
SCPerkins
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: steven perkins <scperkins@gmail.com>
Date: Nov 22, 2005 9:43 PM
Subject: Re: Fwd: Rollo to the Salem Witches
To: "Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com>
Todd:
I agree with your analysis. DNA can't prove the degree
of relationship. DNA with contemporary documentation can strongly
suggest the relationship given in the documentation. I sm trying to
find out if the DNA supports the "limited" documentation we have. As
you say, this could be another Edward from a relative of Willima of
London. So far I don't have evidence for other relatives of William.
I wnat to do the DNA test first before I start on something the DNA
may tell me is futile.
On 11/22/05, Todd A. Farmerie <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:
Dr Farmerie, I presume?
I have been unable to find other male Perkins descendants from William
and his ancestors and siblings. At this time I think it is premature
to expend lots of time on that when the DNA research can tell me this
is or is not the correct line to research.
--
Steven C. Perkins SCPerkins@gmail.com
http://stevencperkins.com/
http://intelligent-internet.info/
http://jgg-online.blogspot.com/
http://stevencperkins.com/genealogy.html
--
Steven C. Perkins SCPerkins@gmail.com
http://stevencperkins.com/
http://intelligent-internet.info/
http://jgg-online.blogspot.com/
http://stevencperkins.com/genealogy.html
SCPerkins
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: steven perkins <scperkins@gmail.com>
Date: Nov 22, 2005 9:43 PM
Subject: Re: Fwd: Rollo to the Salem Witches
To: "Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com>
Todd:
I agree with your analysis. DNA can't prove the degree
of relationship. DNA with contemporary documentation can strongly
suggest the relationship given in the documentation. I sm trying to
find out if the DNA supports the "limited" documentation we have. As
you say, this could be another Edward from a relative of Willima of
London. So far I don't have evidence for other relatives of William.
I wnat to do the DNA test first before I start on something the DNA
may tell me is futile.
On 11/22/05, Todd A. Farmerie <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:
steven perkins wrote:
On 11/22/05, Todd A. Farmerie <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:
steven perkins wrote:
As Doug says, IF I can find a male Perkins descendant of Rev William
Perkins, and IF i can find some descendants of the other sons of
Edward, to insure that my DNA signature does represent Edward's, then
we can settle the question of the possible origin of Edward Perkins of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
New Haven as a son of William Perkins of London, Merchant Taylor.
How so? Why not nephew, cousin, or distant agnatic kinsman?
As Todd knows, being a PHD candidate in genetics, any male with the
If this as intended to describe me, it missed the mark.
Dr Farmerie, I presume?
Perkins surname and a documented line back to William Perkins,
merchant taylor of London, or his siblings or ancestors or other male
Perkins surnamed relatives, could be used for the test.
I am not asking about their use for the test - what I am asking is, if
your line matches that of Rev. William, why must yours be close kin of
his rather than distant kin (who would still share the same haplotype)?
As far as I
have been able to determine, the only possible candidates are male
Perkins descendants of Rev William Perkins of Topsfield and the same
from Edward Perkins of New Haven.
Why are these the only possibilities? How have you identified all other
alternatives, let alone eliminted them?
I have been unable to find other male Perkins descendants from William
and his ancestors and siblings. At this time I think it is premature
to expend lots of time on that when the DNA research can tell me this
is or is not the correct line to research.
The hypotheses on Edward Perkins origin are that 1) he was part of the
Hillmorton Perkins families or 2) he is the half-brother of Rev
William Perkins or 3) he is a Scott who took the Perkins surname to
hide from the English due to the Scottish uprisings in the 1640s.
4) none of the above.
Agree.
1 appears to be disproved by the preliminary results of the Y DNA
2 is what I am working on in the protocol described below.
3 is still a possibility and the protocol will help with this if the
descendants of Johnathan and David Perkins match each other and do not
match the descendnats of John.
Process of elimination only works if _all_ possibilities are included in
the analysis. Simply listing various guesses and knocking out those
that don't fit may tell you which is most likely, _among those guesses_,
but cannot prove a relationship - cannot "settle the question".
As an example (partly hypothetical for the sake of illustration but
based on a real example), there is a family in Wisconsin that came from
England in 1850, and a second family of the same surname from Rhode
Island tracing there back to the 1640s. Descendants of both show up in
the Dakotas by 1880. For the sake of this example, let's assume that
the two have different haplotypes. We should be able to test the
descendants of each of these Dakota families, and see if they match the
Rhode Island or the England/Wisconsin haplotype, and thereby "prove"
which they descend from. Well, were you to do that with one of the
Dakota groups, you would find a perfect match to the Wisconsin group,
and thereby conclude that the Dakota founder descends from the Wisconsin
immigrant - that is, you would if there wasn't a surviving obituary for
this Dakota founder, which explicitly calls him _nephew_ of the
Wisconsin immigrant who followed his uncle. This method of 'proof by
haplotype matching' would have produced the _wrong_ answer, and while in
this case we know why, the shared connection between the one known
immigrant and the wildcard family need not be as close as uncle and
nephew - they could be separated by hundreds of years. In fact, in the
case I describe, we assume that the England/Wisconsin and Rhode Island
groups would have different haplotypes, but while they came to America
200 years apart, they came from the same part of England and may derive
from the same family, and thus any 'process of elimination' analysis
involving this Wisconsin group could be confused by a member of the
Rhode Island group moving into the area, or any novel immigrant from
England, Australia, New Zealand or elsewhere in the US representing the
same agnatic family from which the Rhode Island and Wisconsin groups
derived.
Simply put, only in rare instances can a descendants' haplotype analysis
alone _prove_ (with a degree of reliability worthy of the term "proof")
a specific genealogical relationship - it can only eliminate incorrect
ones. Given the incompleteness and imperfect accuracy of the historical
record, you simply cannot (in most cases) eliminate all of the other
alternatives and thereby "settle the question".
taf
--
Steven C. Perkins SCPerkins@gmail.com
http://stevencperkins.com/
http://intelligent-internet.info/
http://jgg-online.blogspot.com/
http://stevencperkins.com/genealogy.html
--
Steven C. Perkins SCPerkins@gmail.com
http://stevencperkins.com/
http://intelligent-internet.info/
http://jgg-online.blogspot.com/
http://stevencperkins.com/genealogy.html
-
Gjest
Re: Fwd: Rollo to the Salem Witches
I wonder if this sort of thinking is encouraged by companies that
conduct the gene testing?
Probably, theres more money to be made by telling people they are
direct descendants of
Somerled, instead of saying that they are descended from one of his
distant cousins
of the same agnate lineage.
Leslie
conduct the gene testing?
Probably, theres more money to be made by telling people they are
direct descendants of
Somerled, instead of saying that they are descended from one of his
distant cousins
of the same agnate lineage.
Leslie
-
steven perkins
Fwd: Fwd: Rollo to the Salem Witches
From: steven perkins <scperkins@gmail.com>
Date: Nov 23, 2005 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: Fwd: Rollo to the Salem Witches
To: "lmahler@att.net" <lmahler@att.net>
Leslie:
I have doubts on the "direct descendant of Somerled" in regard to
myself or anyone without a paper line from the chiefs of Clan Donald.
Doug McDonald can talk to the probabilities of the statement. There
is "similar by state" and "similar by descent" and I'd like to know
how to determine the difference.
Regards,
Steven C. Perkins
On 23 Nov 2005 10:34:34 -0800, lmahler@att.net <lmahler@att.net> wrote:
--
Steven C. Perkins SCPerkins@gmail.com
http://stevencperkins.com/
http://intelligent-internet.info/
http://jgg-online.blogspot.com/
http://stevencperkins.com/genealogy.html
Date: Nov 23, 2005 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: Fwd: Rollo to the Salem Witches
To: "lmahler@att.net" <lmahler@att.net>
Leslie:
I have doubts on the "direct descendant of Somerled" in regard to
myself or anyone without a paper line from the chiefs of Clan Donald.
Doug McDonald can talk to the probabilities of the statement. There
is "similar by state" and "similar by descent" and I'd like to know
how to determine the difference.
Regards,
Steven C. Perkins
On 23 Nov 2005 10:34:34 -0800, lmahler@att.net <lmahler@att.net> wrote:
I wonder if this sort of thinking is encouraged by companies that
conduct the gene testing?
Probably, theres more money to be made by telling people they are
direct descendants of
Somerled, instead of saying that they are descended from one of his
distant cousins
of the same agnate lineage.
Leslie
--
Steven C. Perkins SCPerkins@gmail.com
http://stevencperkins.com/
http://intelligent-internet.info/
http://jgg-online.blogspot.com/
http://stevencperkins.com/genealogy.html
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Fwd: Rollo to the Salem Witches
lmahler@att.net wrote:
(or even "agnatic kin of individuals claimed by later historians to
descend from Somerled.")
I have not seen "Are you descended from Somerled?" but I have seen "Are
you descended from Ghengis Khan?" used in marketing by a DNA testing
company - I didn't bother to read the fine print to see if they bothered
with the caveats. This is exactly the type of thing I was hinting at
above - the actual scientific observation is that a lot of people in
central Asia derive from the same male lineage, and they just basically
guessed that it represented the Great Khan, so it is one leap of faith
that the Y haplotype represents the Khan, and a second that if you have
it you must descend from said same individual. I recently saw a similar
leap in a recent BBC news story - apparently a haplotype rare among the
Han is highly overrepresented in the north of China, particularly among
Manchurians. They concluded that it was the haplotype of the Manchu
dinasty and that everyone who had it descended from the first Manchu
emperor (and not, say, his brother, uncle, cousin, or whatever), without
testing a single _known_ member of the Aisin Gioro. (Sloppy, sloppy,
sloppy . . .)
As I have mentioned before, many of them play fast and loose - I think I
have told of a cousin who, along with another man of the same surname
but not deriving from the same immigrant ancestor, had his DNA tested.
The report came back saying, "Congratulations, you are related." It was
only the small print (which he passed of as nothing but uninteresting
scientific details) that said "no more closely than any two average
people of English descent". After he read this, I was never quite able
to get it through to him that the two groups were not, in fact, related
in any genealogically relevant manner.
taf
I wonder if this sort of thinking is encouraged by companies that
conduct the gene testing?
Probably, theres more money to be made by telling people they are
direct descendants of
Somerled, instead of saying that they are descended from one of his
distant cousins
of the same agnate lineage.
(or even "agnatic kin of individuals claimed by later historians to
descend from Somerled.")
I have not seen "Are you descended from Somerled?" but I have seen "Are
you descended from Ghengis Khan?" used in marketing by a DNA testing
company - I didn't bother to read the fine print to see if they bothered
with the caveats. This is exactly the type of thing I was hinting at
above - the actual scientific observation is that a lot of people in
central Asia derive from the same male lineage, and they just basically
guessed that it represented the Great Khan, so it is one leap of faith
that the Y haplotype represents the Khan, and a second that if you have
it you must descend from said same individual. I recently saw a similar
leap in a recent BBC news story - apparently a haplotype rare among the
Han is highly overrepresented in the north of China, particularly among
Manchurians. They concluded that it was the haplotype of the Manchu
dinasty and that everyone who had it descended from the first Manchu
emperor (and not, say, his brother, uncle, cousin, or whatever), without
testing a single _known_ member of the Aisin Gioro. (Sloppy, sloppy,
sloppy . . .)
As I have mentioned before, many of them play fast and loose - I think I
have told of a cousin who, along with another man of the same surname
but not deriving from the same immigrant ancestor, had his DNA tested.
The report came back saying, "Congratulations, you are related." It was
only the small print (which he passed of as nothing but uninteresting
scientific details) that said "no more closely than any two average
people of English descent". After he read this, I was never quite able
to get it through to him that the two groups were not, in fact, related
in any genealogically relevant manner.
taf
-
Gjest
Re: Fwd: Rollo to the Salem Witches
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
rather odd, especially as there are so many of them. Perhaps they
didn't want their grand dynasty to be diluted with all those poor
country cousins?
I have not seen "Are you descended from Somerled?" but I have seen "Are
you descended from Ghengis Khan?" used in marketing by a DNA testing
company - I didn't bother to read the fine print to see if they bothered
with the caveats. This is exactly the type of thing I was hinting at
above - the actual scientific observation is that a lot of people in
central Asia derive from the same male lineage, and they just basically
guessed that it represented the Great Khan, so it is one leap of faith
that the Y haplotype represents the Khan, and a second that if you have
it you must descend from said same individual. I recently saw a similar
leap in a recent BBC news story - apparently a haplotype rare among the
Han is highly overrepresented in the north of China, particularly among
Manchurians. They concluded that it was the haplotype of the Manchu
dinasty and that everyone who had it descended from the first Manchu
emperor (and not, say, his brother, uncle, cousin, or whatever), without
testing a single _known_ member of the Aisin Gioro. (Sloppy, sloppy,
sloppy . . .)
The report said that all the known descendants refused to be tested-
rather odd, especially as there are so many of them. Perhaps they
didn't want their grand dynasty to be diluted with all those poor
country cousins?
-
Doug McDonald
Re: Fwd: Rollo to the Salem Witches
lmahler@att.net wrote:
The testing companies are not driving this.
The actual DNA results are. Until recently we had not found
any R1a, YCAII = 19,21 McDonalds who differed enough from
the Somerled profile to to say that they were likely
split from a main line before 1150. And we had plenty of
R1a, YCAII = 19,21 people who were NOT Clan Donald names
that were quite different. Now we are getting the gap filled
in from both sides.
The DNA cannot, of course, CURRENTLY distinguish actual
Somerled descendants from cousins. In fact, we still are
not really sure about Somerled himself ... things are getting better,
but we still really are only talking about paper trails and DNA
being really good back to "Good John", first Lord of the Isles,
and we know for sure that there are descendants of his cousins
(Somerled's other sons) out there.
What the DNA does show is that we have a clear Norse contingent,
who would all be cousins, distant or otherwise, of Somerled.
DNA COULD show that somebody was actually a Somerled descendant,
rather than of a cousin, but we would need lots more people
with paper trails to be tested, and more markers than we currently
have (37). There are another 30 or so markers in the pipeline, and when
all is ready we will test those. It required luck to be able to
show things reasonably certainly with DNA.
However, at least the situation is better than with paper,
in which any given path can be a lie, and additional paths
can;t improve the cances that the lie will be discovered.
That's the one thing that you paper people don't thoroughly
have in mind: ONLY DNA can verify any given set of lines.
Paper alone can NEVER do it, period, to any degree of proof,
because paper can lie. DNA can't lie, but you have to have
parallel paper too to ferret out the possible lies in any one
paper line.
Doug McDonald
I wonder if this sort of thinking is encouraged by companies that
conduct the gene testing?
Probably, theres more money to be made by telling people they are
direct descendants of
Somerled, instead of saying that they are descended from one of his
distant cousins
of the same agnate lineage.
Leslie
The testing companies are not driving this.
The actual DNA results are. Until recently we had not found
any R1a, YCAII = 19,21 McDonalds who differed enough from
the Somerled profile to to say that they were likely
split from a main line before 1150. And we had plenty of
R1a, YCAII = 19,21 people who were NOT Clan Donald names
that were quite different. Now we are getting the gap filled
in from both sides.
The DNA cannot, of course, CURRENTLY distinguish actual
Somerled descendants from cousins. In fact, we still are
not really sure about Somerled himself ... things are getting better,
but we still really are only talking about paper trails and DNA
being really good back to "Good John", first Lord of the Isles,
and we know for sure that there are descendants of his cousins
(Somerled's other sons) out there.
What the DNA does show is that we have a clear Norse contingent,
who would all be cousins, distant or otherwise, of Somerled.
DNA COULD show that somebody was actually a Somerled descendant,
rather than of a cousin, but we would need lots more people
with paper trails to be tested, and more markers than we currently
have (37). There are another 30 or so markers in the pipeline, and when
all is ready we will test those. It required luck to be able to
show things reasonably certainly with DNA.
However, at least the situation is better than with paper,
in which any given path can be a lie, and additional paths
can;t improve the cances that the lie will be discovered.
That's the one thing that you paper people don't thoroughly
have in mind: ONLY DNA can verify any given set of lines.
Paper alone can NEVER do it, period, to any degree of proof,
because paper can lie. DNA can't lie, but you have to have
parallel paper too to ferret out the possible lies in any one
paper line.
Doug McDonald
-
Doug McDonald
Re: Fwd: Fwd: Rollo to the Salem Witches
steven perkins wrote:
I think that we can safely say that anybody who is R1a and
YCAII = 19,21, and within say 4 or 5 of Somerled at 37 markers is
similar be descent. That means Norse, not necessarily a
real Somerled descendant, unless you are clearly from Central
Asia, in which case David Faux needs to know RIGHT AWAY.
Th key is that the very unusual YCAII = 19, 21 goes together
with the rest of the profile. I have tried to get our
statistical consultant people to help me mathematically
determine the probabilities of similar by descent and similar
by state, but they are hopelessly clueless.
Doug McDonald
From: steven perkins <scperkins@gmail.com
Date: Nov 23, 2005 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: Fwd: Rollo to the Salem Witches
To: "lmahler@att.net" <lmahler@att.net
Leslie:
I have doubts on the "direct descendant of Somerled" in regard to
myself or anyone without a paper line from the chiefs of Clan Donald.
Doug McDonald can talk to the probabilities of the statement. There
is "similar by state" and "similar by descent" and I'd like to know
how to determine the difference.
I think that we can safely say that anybody who is R1a and
YCAII = 19,21, and within say 4 or 5 of Somerled at 37 markers is
similar be descent. That means Norse, not necessarily a
real Somerled descendant, unless you are clearly from Central
Asia, in which case David Faux needs to know RIGHT AWAY.
Th key is that the very unusual YCAII = 19, 21 goes together
with the rest of the profile. I have tried to get our
statistical consultant people to help me mathematically
determine the probabilities of similar by descent and similar
by state, but they are hopelessly clueless.
Doug McDonald
-
Gjest
Re: Fwd: Rollo to the Salem Witches
Agreed. Keeping separate assures their superiority over the
underclasses.
Dan
http://free-love-spells.net
underclasses.
Dan
http://free-love-spells.net
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Fwd: Rollo to the Salem Witches
safechecker@netscape.net wrote:
[regarding the refusal of known members of the former imperial family of
China to be tested]
To be fair, in a communist country (admittedly less so, these days)
there are serious implications to identifying one's self with the former
ruling class. Still, you'd think they could have found one, somewhere.
taf
[regarding the refusal of known members of the former imperial family of
China to be tested]
Agreed. Keeping separate assures their superiority over the
underclasses.
To be fair, in a communist country (admittedly less so, these days)
there are serious implications to identifying one's self with the former
ruling class. Still, you'd think they could have found one, somewhere.
taf