Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph

Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper

Svar
Gjest

Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 nov 2005 23:06:02

I evidently have two daughters of Thomas Randolph, 1st Earl of Moray as
married to a Patrick Dunbar. I suspect they are the same daughter

But on the husband Patrick Dunbar
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com 2005-7 (July) says
d 1356/7 in Candia on his way to the Holy Land
WHILE
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com 2005-8 (August) says
d 11 Nov 1368 (or Aft 25 Jul 1368 per GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com 2005-10
(October))

Can someone clear up where there really were two SEPERATE daughters
Agnes de Randolph and Isabel de Randolph who BOTH married a Patrick de
Dunbar ? And when did he die?

Thanks
Will Johnson

Leo

Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph

Legg inn av Leo » 17 nov 2005 23:11:01

Dear Will,

You are correct and you are wrong at the same time :-)

Agnes, also known as 'Black Agnes' married Patrick Dunbar, 9th Earl of
Dunbar and March, he died 11 November 1368 and by his first wife I have a
record of two children, none by Agnes.

her sister Isabel married Sir Patrick Dunbar who died in 1356 in Candia on
Crete, they had at least four children.

Hope this helps.
Leo


----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 8:58 AM
Subject: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph


I evidently have two daughters of Thomas Randolph, 1st Earl of Moray as
married to a Patrick Dunbar. I suspect they are the same daughter

But on the husband Patrick Dunbar
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com 2005-7 (July) says
d 1356/7 in Candia on his way to the Holy Land
WHILE
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com 2005-8 (August) says
d 11 Nov 1368 (or Aft 25 Jul 1368 per GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com 2005-10
(October))

Can someone clear up where there really were two SEPERATE daughters
Agnes de Randolph and Isabel de Randolph who BOTH married a Patrick de
Dunbar ? And when did he die?

Thanks
Will Johnson


Terry

Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph

Legg inn av Terry » 17 nov 2005 23:51:02

Could you tell me who the two children where from his first wife, and if
possible what her name was?
Thanks
Terry L. Mair
Mair's Photography
158 South 580 East
Midway, Utah 84049
435-654-3607
http://www.mairsphotography.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo" <leo@home.netspeed.com.au>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph


Dear Will,

You are correct and you are wrong at the same time :-)

Agnes, also known as 'Black Agnes' married Patrick Dunbar, 9th Earl of
Dunbar and March, he died 11 November 1368 and by his first wife I have a
record of two children, none by Agnes.

her sister Isabel married Sir Patrick Dunbar who died in 1356 in Candia on
Crete, they had at least four children.

Hope this helps.
Leo


----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 8:58 AM
Subject: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph


I evidently have two daughters of Thomas Randolph, 1st Earl of Moray as
married to a Patrick Dunbar. I suspect they are the same daughter

But on the husband Patrick Dunbar
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com 2005-7 (July) says
d 1356/7 in Candia on his way to the Holy Land
WHILE
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com 2005-8 (August) says
d 11 Nov 1368 (or Aft 25 Jul 1368 per GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com 2005-10
(October))

Can someone clear up where there really were two SEPERATE daughters
Agnes de Randolph and Isabel de Randolph who BOTH married a Patrick de
Dunbar ? And when did he die?

Thanks
Will Johnson





Gjest

Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 nov 2005 23:53:04

"Leo" schrieb:

Dear Will,

You are correct and you are wrong at the same time :-)

Agnes, also known as 'Black Agnes' married Patrick Dunbar, 9th Earl of
Dunbar and March, he died 11 November 1368 and by his first wife I have a
record of two children, none by Agnes.

her sister Isabel married Sir Patrick Dunbar who died in 1356 in Candia on
Crete, they had at least four children.

Burke's 2003 edition sub Dunbar of Mochrum refers to Patrick the
husband of Agnes as 8th Earl of Dunbar (and 2nd of March), c1285-1368;
Sir Patrick, husband of Isabel, was the Earl's nephew, son of his next
brother, Sir Alexander Dunbar ff 1331.

MAR

Leo

Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph

Legg inn av Leo » 17 nov 2005 23:59:02

To get a more detailed answer it is easier to go to my website
http://www.genealogics.org as then you can extend your search as well see
sources mentioned. Go to Easy Name Search, enter Patrick Dunbar and then
select the 9th Earl, there is even a small biography for him.

Best wishes
Leo van de Pas



----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry" <terry@mairsphotography.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 9:50 AM
Subject: Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph


Could you tell me who the two children where from his first wife, and if
possible what her name was?
Thanks
Terry L. Mair
Mair's Photography
158 South 580 East
Midway, Utah 84049
435-654-3607
http://www.mairsphotography.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo" <leo@home.netspeed.com.au
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph


Dear Will,

You are correct and you are wrong at the same time :-)

Agnes, also known as 'Black Agnes' married Patrick Dunbar, 9th Earl of
Dunbar and March, he died 11 November 1368 and by his first wife I have a
record of two children, none by Agnes.

her sister Isabel married Sir Patrick Dunbar who died in 1356 in Candia
on Crete, they had at least four children.

Hope this helps.
Leo


----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 8:58 AM
Subject: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph


I evidently have two daughters of Thomas Randolph, 1st Earl of Moray as
married to a Patrick Dunbar. I suspect they are the same daughter

But on the husband Patrick Dunbar
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com 2005-7 (July) says
d 1356/7 in Candia on his way to the Holy Land
WHILE
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com 2005-8 (August) says
d 11 Nov 1368 (or Aft 25 Jul 1368 per GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
2005-10
(October))

Can someone clear up where there really were two SEPERATE daughters
Agnes de Randolph and Isabel de Randolph who BOTH married a Patrick de
Dunbar ? And when did he die?

Thanks
Will Johnson








Gjest

Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 nov 2005 00:06:05

"Leo" schrieb:

To get a more detailed answer it is easier to go to my website
http://www.genealogics.org as then you can extend your search as well see
sources mentioned. Go to Easy Name Search, enter Patrick Dunbar and then
select the 9th Earl, there is even a small biography for him.

Best wishes
Leo van de Pas

Leo

I take my hat off to you - you've already done so much work that half
my library is redundant.

Thanks for sharing this material.

Best wishes

Michael

Terry

Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph

Legg inn av Terry » 18 nov 2005 00:16:01

Thanks Leo
I had the wrong Randolph, seams like I had the same problem Will had.
Thanks again
Terry L. Mair
Mair's Photography
158 South 580 East
Midway, Utah 84049
435-654-3607
http://www.mairsphotography.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo" <leo@home.netspeed.com.au>
To: "Terry" <terry@mairsphotography.com>; <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph


To get a more detailed answer it is easier to go to my website
http://www.genealogics.org as then you can extend your search as well see
sources mentioned. Go to Easy Name Search, enter Patrick Dunbar and then
select the 9th Earl, there is even a small biography for him.

Best wishes
Leo van de Pas



----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry" <terry@mairsphotography.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 9:50 AM
Subject: Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph


Could you tell me who the two children where from his first wife, and if
possible what her name was?
Thanks
Terry L. Mair
Mair's Photography
158 South 580 East
Midway, Utah 84049
435-654-3607
http://www.mairsphotography.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo" <leo@home.netspeed.com.au
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph


Dear Will,

You are correct and you are wrong at the same time :-)

Agnes, also known as 'Black Agnes' married Patrick Dunbar, 9th Earl of
Dunbar and March, he died 11 November 1368 and by his first wife I have
a record of two children, none by Agnes.

her sister Isabel married Sir Patrick Dunbar who died in 1356 in Candia
on Crete, they had at least four children.

Hope this helps.
Leo


----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 8:58 AM
Subject: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph


I evidently have two daughters of Thomas Randolph, 1st Earl of Moray as
married to a Patrick Dunbar. I suspect they are the same daughter

But on the husband Patrick Dunbar
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com 2005-7 (July) says
d 1356/7 in Candia on his way to the Holy Land
WHILE
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com 2005-8 (August) says
d 11 Nov 1368 (or Aft 25 Jul 1368 per GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
2005-10
(October))

Can someone clear up where there really were two SEPERATE daughters
Agnes de Randolph and Isabel de Randolph who BOTH married a Patrick de
Dunbar ? And when did he die?

Thanks
Will Johnson











Gjest

Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 nov 2005 21:49:01

In a message dated 11/17/05 2:10:20 PM Pacific Standard Time,
leo@home.netspeed.com.au writes:

<<
Agnes, also known as 'Black Agnes' married Patrick Dunbar, 9th Earl of
Dunbar and March, he died 11 November 1368 and by his first wife I have a
record of two children, none by Agnes. >>

I believe Leo that there was discussion on this identification on this
newsgroup back in July ? (or thereabouts) Where it was hypothesized that there was
room for another Patrick Earl of Dunbar. So that the one who married
Ermengarde, and the one who married Agnes would be father and son, instead of the same
person.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 nov 2005 21:54:02

In a message dated 11/17/05 3:02:42 PM Pacific Standard Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

<< Burke's 2003 edition sub Dunbar of Mochrum refers to Patrick the
husband of Agnes as 8th Earl of Dunbar (and 2nd of March), c1285-1368;
Sir Patrick, husband of Isabel, was the Earl's nephew, son of his next
brother, Sir Alexander Dunbar ff 1331. >>

My take from our previous discussion of this family was that this "c 1285"
was a very badly formed guess, not even one with evidence of any sort to back it
up.

Right now I have him with a birth range of 1271/1305. Maybe there is an
I.P.M. which states his age, but so far nothing that like has been forthcoming on
this issue.

Will Johnson

Leo

Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph

Legg inn av Leo » 18 nov 2005 23:47:01

Dear Will,

I don't remember another conversation but that doesn't mean there wasn't
one.

CP IV Page 507 and 508 state that Patrick Dunbar, 8th Earl of March or
Dunbar married (1) in or shortly before 1303 Ermengarde on page 508 footnote
B gives two sons, Patrick born 1304 and John; then shortly after September
1320 he marries Agnes Randolph. CP Volume XIV does not change anything here.
Chris Phillips also does not indicate any changes

I think, if it is hypothesized only, for the time being we should stick with
the traditional information and wait for some proof to be provided.

Hope you agree.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas


----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2005 7:47 AM
Subject: Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph


In a message dated 11/17/05 2:10:20 PM Pacific Standard Time,
leo@home.netspeed.com.au writes:


Agnes, also known as 'Black Agnes' married Patrick Dunbar, 9th Earl of
Dunbar and March, he died 11 November 1368 and by his first wife I have a
record of two children, none by Agnes.

I believe Leo that there was discussion on this identification on this
newsgroup back in July ? (or thereabouts) Where it was hypothesized that
there was
room for another Patrick Earl of Dunbar. So that the one who married
Ermengarde, and the one who married Agnes would be father and son, instead
of the same
person.

Will Johnson


Gjest

Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 nov 2005 00:40:02

In a message dated 11/18/05 2:45:56 PM Pacific Standard Time,
leo@home.netspeed.com.au writes:

<< CP IV Page 507 and 508 state that Patrick Dunbar, 8th Earl of March or
Dunbar married (1) in or shortly before 1303 Ermengarde on page 508 footnote
B gives two sons, Patrick born 1304 and John; then shortly after September
1320 he marries Agnes Randolph. CP Volume XIV does not change anything here.
Chris Phillips also does not indicate any changes >>

I'm just not quite willing to accept that an 11 year old boy was knighted.
I'm still waiting to see the actual underlying document that CP cites which
claims to aged him 24.
Will

Gjest

Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 nov 2005 02:19:02

Dear Will, Leo and others,
Ermengarde wasn`t a very common name
in thirteenth century Scotland to my very limited knowledge. The likeliest
candidate to have had a daughter of that name is Alan de Durward / Doorward who
married Marjory a natural but legitimated daughter of Alexander II, King of
Scots. Alexander ii was King William the Lion of the Scots only surviving son by
his wife Ermengarde de Beaumont.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 nov 2005 02:25:02

In a message dated 11/18/05 5:17:15 PM Pacific Standard Time, Jwc1870@aol.com
writes:

<< Ermengarde wasn`t a very common name
in thirteenth century Scotland to my very limited knowledge. The likeliest
candidate to have had a daughter of that name is Alan de Durward / Doorward
who
married Marjory a natural but legitimated daughter of Alexander II, King of
Scots. Alexander ii was King William the Lion of the Scots only surviving
son by
his wife Ermengarde de Beaumont. >>

I'm showing four children off William the Lion and his wife Ermengarde.
Why in particular choose one granddaughter ? Did the other lines have no
issue?

Will

Gjest

Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 nov 2005 02:40:02

Dear Will,
I think so, certainly none of them had descendants who laid
claim to the Scots` throne in 1290 when Princess Margaret of Norway, the
granddaughter of King Alexander III died.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Dolly Ziegler

Domesday Book Online (website)

Legg inn av Dolly Ziegler » 19 nov 2005 03:43:01

http://www.domesdaybook.co.uk

I'm sitting here shaking my head. Google is amazing.
The Internet is amazing. Not perfect, mind you, but
-- ten years ago, even five, who would've believed
we'd have resources like this? Cheers, Dolly in Maryland

Gjest

Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 nov 2005 12:40:09

WJhonson@aol.com schrieb:

I'm just not quite willing to accept that an 11 year old boy was knighted.

John Mortimer, son of Roger, Lord Mortimer of Wigmore, was knighted in
1317. He was a younger son (probably the fourth) whose parents had
married in 1302. He was probably then aged under ten.

MAR

Gjest

Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 nov 2005 12:42:08

"Leo" schrieb:

Agnes, also known as 'Black Agnes' married Patrick Dunbar, 9th Earl of
Dunbar and March, he died 11 November 1368.

His peerage seems to be one of those with some dispute or confusion
over the assignation of numbers. I haven't checked CP or SP, but
Burke's calls him the 8th Earl while DNB says he was 10th (this latter
also gives him dates of 1285-1369).

MAR

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 19 nov 2005 14:00:26

In message of 19 Nov, mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:

"Leo" schrieb:

Agnes, also known as 'Black Agnes' married Patrick Dunbar, 9th Earl of
Dunbar and March, he died 11 November 1368.

His peerage seems to be one of those with some dispute or confusion
over the assignation of numbers. I haven't checked CP or SP, but
Burke's calls him the 8th Earl while DNB says he was 10th (this latter
also gives him dates of 1285-1369).

CP, published 1916, says 8th.

SP, published 1906, says 9th.

SP inserts an extra Gospatric making three such earls, whereas CP only
has two of them.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

John P. Ravilious

Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 19 nov 2005 14:46:13

Dear Will, James, et al.,

Below is a pedigree I have concerning the issue of William the
Lion, King of Scots by his wife Ermengarde de Beaumont. Please note:

1. I have Margaret, wife of Hubert de Burgh, identified as the
same as the wife of Gilbert Marshal, Earl of Pembroke (elsewhere called
Margery).

2. This does not reflect any illegitiimate issue of William the
Lion, of whom there were many (see de Ros of Helmsley/Hamlake, the
Earls of Dunbar & c.).

The name Ermengarde is not noted elsewhere in Scotland outside
these descendants. The theory (of Andrew MacEwen's) is that
Ermengarde, wife of Patrick, Earl of Dunbar ca. 1303/04, was a daughter
of William de Soulis and Ermengarde Durward (see Margery of Scotland,
1.1a.2 below).

Hope this is helpful.

Cheers,

John


1 William 'the Lion' of Scotland
----------------------------------------
Birth: 1143
Death: 4 Dec 1214, Stirling[1]
Burial: Arbroath[1]
Occ: King of Scots 1165-1214
Father: Henry of Scotland (~1115-1152)
Mother: Ada de Warenne (ca1120-1178)

Earl of Northumberland 1152
Earl of Huntingdon and Northampton, and lord of Fotheringay,
co. Northants.

succeeded to the throne on the death of his brother Malcolm IV

' W. Rex Scottorum ', issued charter dated at Perth, ca.
1166x1170 [witnessed by Earl David of Huntingdon, Nicholas
the chancellor, Earl Waldeve of Dunbar, Earl Duncan of Fife,
Richard de Morville the constable, Walter fitz Alan the
steward, David Olifard, Saier de Quincy and Robert de Quincy]
granting the lands of Aberbotherin to Coupar priory, Angus
[Coupar I:1, No. I[2]]

defeated and captured at Alnwick, 12 Jul 1174;
acknowledged overlordship of Henry II of England by Treaty
of Falaise, 1174 (lost his English earldoms and lands)

received return of Earldom of Huntingdon and the lands of
Fotheringay,co. Northants., 1185 on death of Simon III de
St. Liz[3] (resigned to brother David)[1]

Spouse: Ermengarde de Beaumont
Death: 11 Feb 1233[1]
Father: Richard de Beaumont (->1199)
Mother: Lucie de L'Aigle (->1217)
Marr: 5 Sep 1186[1]

Children: Alexander II (1198-1249)
Margaret (-1244)
Isabella


1.1a Alexander II of Scotland*
----------------------------------------
Birth: 24 Aug 1198[4],[5]
Death: 8 Jul 1249, Kerrera[5]
Occ: King of Scots 1214-1249

Mistress: NN [not married]

Children: Ermengarde (-<1241)
Margery

Spouses Joan of England, Marie de Coucy


1.1a.1 Ermengarde of Scotland
----------------------------------------

illegitimate daughter

' Ermengardis, filie domini mei Regis Alexandri ', named in
grant of Sir Alexander de Stirling, 1240 [Red Book of
Menteith II:212, no. 5 ] [11]


1.1a.2 Margery of Scotland
----------------------------------------

' ROBERT, LORD ABBOT OF DUNFERMLINE, RESIGNED (A.D. 1251).-The
Lord Abbot of Dunfermline appears to have been "implicated in
the plot of trying to get the bastard daughter of King Alexander
II., the wife of Alan Durward, Justiciar of Scotland,
legitimized, that she might succeed to the throne, in the
event of the death of the boy-King, Alexander III." Feeling
that he had done wrong, and having had some misunderstanding
with the monks, he resigned his office of Lord Abbot of
Dunfermline, and also his seals of office as Lord Chancellor
of Scotland, and retired to Newbottle, where he assumed the
attire and position of a monk of that Abbey. About the year
1269 he was elected Abbot of Melrose, and died in 1273.
(Fordun ii. 68, 216; Chron. Mel. P. 151, 191, 216; Morton's An.
Tev. P. 226.) ' [12]


cf. R. Borthwick, <Re: Marjorie, Natural Daughter of Alexander
II of Scotland> [13]

Spouse: Alan Durward

Children: Ermengarde, m. William de Soulis [DESCENDANTS]


1.1b Alexander II of Scotland* (See above)
----------------------------------------

Spouse: Joan of England [1st wife]
Birth: 22 Jul 1210[6]
Death: 5 Mar 1238[6]
Father: John 'Lackland', King of England (1167-1216)
Mother: Isabella of Angoulême (~1188-<1246)
Marr: 19 Jun 1221[6]


1.1c Alexander II of Scotland* (See above)
----------------------------------------

Spouse: Marie de Coucy [2nd wife]
Father: Enguerrand III de Coucy (-1243)
Mother: Marie de Montmirail
Marr: 15 May 1239, Roxburgh, Scotland[5],[7]

Children: Alexander III, King of Scots (1241-1286)


1.2a Margaret of Scotland*
----------------------------------------
Death: 17 Nov 1244[1]

her marriage to Henry III of England planned, 1221
(disputes with England resulted in cancellation of this
agreement - McDonald, p. 97[8])

She m. 1stly (as 3rd wife) Hubert de Burgh,
2ndly Gilbert Marshal, earl of Pembroke

Spouse: Hubert de Burgh
Death: bef 5 May 1243, Banstead, Surrey[1],[9]
Father: NN de Burgh
Mother: Alice
Marr: 1221

Children: Margaret


1.2b Margaret of Scotland* (See above)
----------------------------------------

Spouse: Gilbert Marshal [2nd husband]
Death: 27 Jun 1241, d.s.p., near Hertford[1]
Father: William Marshal (~1146-1219)
Mother: Isabel de Clare (-1220)
Marr: 1 Aug 1235, Berwick, Scotland[1]


1.3 Isabella of Scotland
----------------------------------------

cf. Morris pp. 4-5[10]

Spouse: Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk
Birth: ca 1212[3]
Death: 4 Jul 1270, d.s.p.[1]
Father: Hugh le Bigod (-<1224)
Mother: Maud le Marshal (-1248)
Marr: 1 Jun 1225[10]




1. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 -
[microprint, 1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of
England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
2. D. E. Easson, ed., "Charters of the Abbey of Coupar Angus,"
Edinburgh: T. and A. Constable, Ltd., for the Scottish
History Society, 1947.
3. I. J. Sanders, "English Baronies: A Study of Their Origin
and Descent, 1086-1327," Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1960.
4. Andrew B. W. MacEwen, "A Clarification of the Dunbar
Pedigree," The Genealogist, Vol. 9, No. 2, 1991, pp. 229-241,
cites Joseph Stevenson, ed., Cronica de Mailros, E Codice
Unico in Bibliotheca Cottoniana Servato (Edinburgh, 1835),
and other sources.
5. Douglas Richardson, "Plantagenet," Jan 20, 2003, email
royalancestry@msn.com.
6. David Faris, "Plantagenet Ancestry of Seventeenth-Century
Colonists," Boston: New England Historic Genealogical Society,
1999, (2nd edition, 1999).
7. "The Topographical, Statistical and Historical Gazetteer of
Scotland," Edinburgh: A. Fullarton & Co., 1856, pp. 121-122,
concerning Rathillet 'the house and hamlet' in the parish of
Kilmany, 2 volumes, 'And an Appendix, Containing the results
in Detail of the Census of 1851'.
8. R. Andrew McDonald, "The Kingdom of the Isles: Scotland's
Western Seaboard, c. 1100- c. 1336," East Lothian: Tuckwell
Press, 1997.
9. John P. Ravilious, "CP Correction: Hubert de Burgh, Earl of
Kent," April 19, 2003, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, citation
from the Fine Roll, Memb. 9, dated 5 May 1243, Excerpta ex
Rotulis Finium I:406.
10. Marc Morris, "The Bigod Earls of Norfolk in the Thirteenth
Century," Woodbridge: The Boydell Press, 2005.
11. W. Fraser, "The Red Book of Menteith", Edinburgh, 1880
12. Ebenezer Henderson, LL.D., "The Annals of Dunfermline and
Vicinity, from the Earliest Authentic Period to the Present
Time, A.D. 1069 - 1878", Glasgow: John Tweed, 1879.
13. Richard Borthwick, "Marjorie, Natural Daughter of Alexander
II of Scotland", SGM, 8 November 1999.






WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 11/18/05 5:17:15 PM Pacific Standard Time, Jwc1870@aol..com
writes:

Ermengarde wasn`t a very common name
in thirteenth century Scotland to my very limited knowledge. The likeliest
candidate to have had a daughter of that name is Alan de Durward / Doorward
who
married Marjory a natural but legitimated daughter of Alexander II, King of
Scots. Alexander ii was King William the Lion of the Scots only surviving
son by
his wife Ermengarde de Beaumont.

I'm showing four children off William the Lion and his wife Ermengarde.
Why in particular choose one granddaughter ? Did the other lines have no
issue?

Will

John P. Ravilious

Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 19 nov 2005 15:08:44

Dear Tim, et al.,

The primary test that the different theories will need to pass
(whether one Earl Patrick died ca. 1368 aged 80 or more, or he was the
son of an earlier Earl Patrick with whom he was conflated) is that of
the dispensations for Patrick, Earl of Dunbar and Agnes Randolph:

A.

dispensation for his marriage, dated at Avignon, 18 Aug 1320:
' To the guardian of the Friars Minors, Roscheburc, in the diocese
of
Glasgow. Commission and mandate to grant a dispensation to Patrick de
Dumbar, and Agnes [daughter] of Ralph of the diocese of St. Andrews,
to
intermarry, they being related in the fourth degree. If they are
excommunicate they are to be absolved, and if the realm is under an
interdict, it may be relaxed to allow of the celebration of the
marriage. ' [Papal Letters II:201 [1]]

B.

this was modified by a post-nuptial dispensation, dated at Avignon, 17
Kal. Feb. [16 Jan.] 1323/4:
' To Patrick de Dunbar, earl of March, and Agnes his wife, daughter
of
Thomas Arnulphi, earl of Moray, who are related in the third and
fourth
degrees. Dispensation to remain in the marriage they have contracted,
declaring their past and future offspring legitimate. The papal
dispensation addressed on their behalf to the guardian of the Friars
Minor of Rokesburgh, in the diocese of Glasgow, having been granted
only in the case of their being related in the fourth degree.'
[Papal Letters II:235 [1]]


These are dispensations for kinship, not affinity. Therefore,
identifications of the individuals and their ancestries can be tested
against these known relationships.

Importantly, while one might argue that a young Patrick de Dunbar
could have been knighted at an early age, I think explaining this being
so, and his being on campaign at the Battle of Falkirk (1298) at such
an early age is a tough one. At this juncture, Andrew MacEwen is of
the opinion that the young Sir Patrick de Dunbar (later Earl Patrick),
who married Ermengarde ca. 1303/04, or before, was more likely born say
1275, or before. If so, the "One Patrick" theory would have him aged
93 or more when he resigned the earldom to George Dunbar in
1368.........

Cheers,

John


NOTES

[1] 1. W. H. Bliss, ed., "Calendar of Entries in the Papal Registers
Relating to Great Britain and Ireland," Papal Letters, Vol. II (A.D.
1305 - 1342), London: for the Public Record Office, 1895, (reprinted
1971, Kraus-Thomson, Liechtenstein).





Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
In message of 19 Nov, mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:


"Leo" schrieb:

Agnes, also known as 'Black Agnes' married Patrick Dunbar, 9th Earl of
Dunbar and March, he died 11 November 1368.

His peerage seems to be one of those with some dispute or confusion
over the assignation of numbers. I haven't checked CP or SP, but
Burke's calls him the 8th Earl while DNB says he was 10th (this latter
also gives him dates of 1285-1369).

CP, published 1916, says 8th.

SP, published 1906, says 9th.

SP inserts an extra Gospatric making three such earls, whereas CP only
has two of them.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Alex Maxwell Findlater

Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph

Legg inn av Alex Maxwell Findlater » 19 nov 2005 15:53:33

The parents of Black Agnes would have required a dispensation, for her
mother Isobel Stewart was grand-daughter of Alexander 4th High Steward,
while her father Thomas earl of Moray had a great-grandmother Margaret,
sister of Alexander High Steward.

Do we had a record of this, as it would at least help to confirm her
pedigree, which seems pretty light compared to that of her husband,
mising 10 branches out of 16.

Am I right and do we?

Doug McDonald

Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 19 nov 2005 15:57:44

Leo wrote:

Dear Will,

I don't remember another conversation but that doesn't mean there wasn't
one.


You bet there was one.

CP IV Page 507 and 508 state that Patrick Dunbar, 8th Earl of March or
Dunbar married (1) in or shortly before 1303 Ermengarde on page 508
footnote B gives two sons, Patrick born 1304 and John; then shortly
after September 1320 he marries Agnes Randolph. CP Volume XIV does not
change anything here. Chris Phillips also does not indicate any changes

I think, if it is hypothesized only, for the time being we should stick
with the traditional information and wait for some proof to be provided.


The final verdict was that your web site is correct in the vicinity
of the Dunbar-Randolph connection, especially the connection in between
Patrick Dunbar (m. Comyn) and John Dunbar (1st Earl of Moray) and the
7th and 8th Earls Dunbar and their wives.

At least for a while, unless real new evidence comes to light,
this matter should be put to rest.

Doug McDonald

John P. Ravilious

Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 19 nov 2005 16:12:31

Dear Alex,

I'm afraid this is incorrect, and is an error perpetuated through
Scots Peerage.

' Margaret [dau. of Alexander, Steward of Scotland], who is said
to have been married to Nigel or Neil of Galloway, Earl of Carrick '
[1] is the error. Andrew B. W. MacEwen has proven that this is in
error, due to a misunderstanding by Gordon as to the relationship with
the Stewarts (created by marriage of Duncan of Carrick, grandfather of
Neil, with Avelina). Earl Neil was married to Isabella, parentage
unknown, who is the ancestress of Thomas Randolph, Earl of Moray, & c.

Cheers,

John


NOTES

[1] SP I:12, sub _Kings of Scotland_ .



Alex Maxwell Findlater wrote:
The parents of Black Agnes would have required a dispensation, for her
mother Isobel Stewart was grand-daughter of Alexander 4th High Steward,
while her father Thomas earl of Moray had a great-grandmother Margaret,
sister of Alexander High Steward.

Do we had a record of this, as it would at least help to confirm her
pedigree, which seems pretty light compared to that of her husband,
mising 10 branches out of 16.

Am I right and do we?

Gjest

Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 nov 2005 06:24:02

Dear Will and John,
A couple of extensions to the Durward / Soulis
ancestry
1 Alan Durward, Earl of Atholl married after the death of his first wife
Marjorie of the Scots, Isabel, Countess of Atholl, widow of a Thomas who had been
Earl of Atholl. Alan was a son of Thomas de Lundin the Durward and NN which
Thomas was son of NN de Lundin and NN, possibly a daughter of Gilchrist, Earl
of Mar. Thomas Durward attempted to wrest the Earldom from Earl Duncan of Mar,
son of Gilchrist`s predecessor Earl Morgand and his wife Agnes. Earl Duncan`s
son Earl William of Mar who was married to William Comyn, Earl of Buchan`s
daughter Elizabeth was opposed by Alan Durward reviving his father`s claims to
Mar. He failed in part because of the Comyn family`s growing influence and
after Alan`s death in 1268 some of his principal holdings including Urquhart
Castle were granted to John Comyn of Badenoch. Durward`s son- in-law William de
Soulis was the son of Nicholas de Soulis a border baron.
Sources : Alan Young The Comyns 1212-1314 pp 38-39; NEHGR 122 p
272, Lineage of the Earls of Mar on line
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 nov 2005 06:25:02

In a message dated 11/19/05 5:48:33 AM Pacific Standard Time, therav3@aol.com
writes:

<< Spouse: Hubert de Burgh
Death: bef 5 May 1243, Banstead, Surrey[1],[9]
Father: NN de Burgh
Mother: Alice
Marr: 1221

Children: Margaret


1.2b Margaret of Scotland* (See above)
----------------------------------------

Spouse: Gilbert Marshal [2nd husband]
Death: 27 Jun 1241, d.s.p., near Hertford[1]
Father: William Marshal (~1146-1219)
Mother: Isabel de Clare (-1220)
Marr: 1 Aug 1235, Berwick, Scotland[1] >>


John to be consistent, if your theory is that Margaret and Marjory are the
same daughter as here. Shouldn't you say than that Hugh died BEF 1 Aug 1235
when she married the second time?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 nov 2005 06:25:04

In a message dated 11/19/05 5:48:33 AM Pacific Standard Time, therav3@aol.com
writes:

<< Spouse: Alan Durward

Children: Ermengarde, m. William de Soulis [DESCENDANTS] >>


This helps me tighten up a bit on some chronology.
Allowing Ermengarde to be born when Alexander was at least 17 gives us that
she was born AFT 1214
But by your own statement she was dead by 1240

So tentatively she was born between 1215 and 1240.
However, she was a mother by her husband William de Soulis to Ermengarde de
Soulis who subsequently married Patrick, Earl of Dunbar.

Therefore Ermengarde "of Scotland" had to live until at least 13 and so was
born 1215/27.
Since, you say, she was dead by 1240, her own daughter, had the birthrange
1228/40

Which Earl Patrick of Dunbar is she supposed to have married ?
The one who died 1320/4 ? The one who died 1308 maybe ?
maybe even the one who died 1289 ..... now wouldn't that be interesting.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 nov 2005 06:25:04

In a message dated 11/29/05 6:37:19 PM Pacific Standard Time, Jwc1870@aol.com
writes:

<< 1 Alan Durward, Earl of Atholl married after the death of his first wife
Marjorie of the Scots, Isabel, Countess of Atholl, widow of a Thomas who had
been
Earl of Atholl. >>

"Who had been..." well wouldn't this be the same Thomas, Earl of Atholl son
of Rolland (lachlan) Lord of Galloway and Ellen (Elena) de Morville ?

This Thomas I have born anywhere between 1154 when his own father would have
been at least 17, and 1201 when his father was dead. I have not done any
research to pin this down date more, but even so, it's in the range to allow him
to marry this Isabel, who then as a widow marries Alan Durward and brings him
Atholl.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 des 2005 00:16:01

Dear Will,
Yes, Isabel, Countess of Atholl married 1st Thomas, a
younger son of Roland, Lord of Galloway and 2nd Alan de Lundin, Durward. according
to Stirnet Isabel had a son Patrick, Earl of Atholl d 1242 and was the elder
daughter of Henry, 3rd Earl of Atholl by Margaret. so Thomas of Galloway was
the 4th, Patrick the 6th and Alan Lundin the Durward, 5th Earl of Atholl. Here
it gets a bit unbelievable Atholl 1 asserts that Thomas de Lundin the Durward
died 1231 (Alan`s father) married Christina / Margaret of Atholl, daughter of
Malcolm, 2nd Earl of Atholl and sister of Henry , 3rd Earl of Atholl. A
marriage between Alan and Isabel would have required a dispensation with the bride
and groom being of the 2nd and 2nd degree of consanquincy. not 100 %
impossible to obtain (consider the immediate ancestry of King Pedro el Cruel of
Castille and Leon) but overall rather rare. The Comyns by Alan Young p 39 indicates
that Isabel`s mother Margaret was a Comyn, daughter of Richard and Hextilda
nighean Uchtred by Bethoc nighean Donald Bane. Thomas de Lundin the Durward was
son of Malcolm de Lundin, 1st hereditary Durward by a daughter of Gilchrist,
3rd Earl of Mar. Alan was Earl of Atholl from 1233 to 1237 when the Comyns got
him removed and replaced by their kinsman Patrick who died sine prole in 1242.
the title was then granted to David de Hastings, husband of Isabel`s sister
Ferelith whose daughter Ada de Hastings married John de Stathbogie who became
Earl of Atholl. Lora, daughter, perhaps illegitimate of Thomas of Galloway
attempted to take the Earldom from Countess Ferelith and her husband but was
unsuccessful.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 des 2005 00:47:01

In a message dated 11/30/05 3:15:33 PM Pacific Standard Time, Jwc1870@aol.com
writes:

<< the title was then granted to David de Hastings, husband of Isabel`s
sister
Ferelith whose daughter Ada de Hastings married John de Stathbogie who
became
Earl of Atholl. Lora, daughter, perhaps illegitimate of Thomas of Galloway
attempted to take the Earldom from Countess Ferelith and her husband but was
unsuccessful. >>

Is this the same John de Strathbogie who was executed 7 Nov 1306 for treason?

I'm showing his mother as Isabella de Dover, Heiress of Chilham, and his
father as David de Strabogi, Earl of Atholl. But perhaps this David was married
before, or perhaps the David you're referring to was this David's father .....

Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 des 2005 01:10:02

Dear Will,
Almost right. John de Strathbogie, Earl of Atholl Jure Uxoris
married Ada de Hastings, Countess of Atholl was the father of David de
Strathbogie married 1st Helen, 2nd Isabella de Chilham. note that this David`s
father John de Strathbogie is stated in Stirnet Fife 01 to be son of another David
de Strathbogie who was younger brother of Duncan of Fife who married Alice
Corbet and of Malcolm I, Earl of Fife being a son of Duncan II, Earl of Fife by
Ela, niece ? of Malcolm IV, King of Scots.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

John P. Ravilious

Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 01 des 2005 05:31:00

Dear Will,

The Earl Patrick conjectured as husband of Ermengarde (de Soulis)
is the one who allegedly (1) was born say 1275, and (2) who d. ca.
1320/1324.

See the 'detailed' pedigree of descendants of Alexander II, king
of Scots as presently conjectured (illegitimate descents only).

Cheers,

John


1 Alexander II of Scotland
----------------------------------------
Birth: 24 Aug 1198[1],[2]
Death: 8 Jul 1249, Kerrera[2]
Occ: King of Scots 1214-1249
Father: William 'the Lion' of Scotland (1143-1214)
Mother: Ermengarde de Beaumont (-1233)

Spouse: NN [not married]

Children: Ermengarde (-<1241)
Margery

Other Spouses Joan of England, Marie de Coucy


1.1 Ermengarde of Scotland
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1241[3]

illegitimate daughter

' Ermengardis, filie domini mei Regis Alexandri ', named in grant
of Sir Alexander de Stirling, 1240 [Red Book of Menteith II:212,
no. 5[3] ]


1.2 Margery of Scotland
----------------------------------------

illegitimate daughter

' ROBERT, LORD ABBOT OF DUNFERMLINE, RESIGNED (A.D. 1251).
-The Lord Abbot of Dunfermline appears to have been "implicated in
the plot of trying to get the bastard daughter of King Alexander
II., the wife of Alan Durward, Justiciar of Scotland, legitimized,
that she might succeed to the throne, in the event of the death of
the boy-King, Alexander III." Feeling that he had done wrong, and
having had some misunderstanding with the monks, he resigned his
office of Lord Abbot of Dunfermline, and also his seals of office
as Lord Chancellor of Scotland, and retired to Newbottle, where he
assumed the attire and position of a monk of that Abbey. About
the year 1269 he was elected Abbot of Melrose, and died in 1273.
(Fordun ii. 68, 216; Chron. Mel. P. 151, 191, 216; Morton's An.
Tev. P. 226.) '[4]

cf. R. Borthwick, <Re: Marjorie, Natural Daughter of Alexander
II of Scotland>[5]

Spouse: Alan Durward

Children: Ermengarde


1.2.1 Ermengarde Durward[5]
----------------------------------------

cf. R. Borthwick, <Re: Marjorie, Natural Daughter of Alexander
II of Scotland>[5]

Spouse: William de Soulis
Father: Nicholas de Soulis (-1264)
Mother: Anora de Normanville

Children: Nicholas (-1296)
Ermengarde


1.2.1.1 Nicholas de Soulis
----------------------------------------
Death: 1296[5]

heir of his father

claimant to the Scots crown based on his descent from King
Alexander II, 1291

' Soules, Dominus Nicholaus de (miles), (Nicol de Soules,
chiualer). ' - swore allegiance to King Edward I at Berwick,
1291 [Ragman Roll[6] ]


1.2.1.2 Ermengarde (de Soulis ?)
----------------------------------------

identification and parentage conjectured by Andrew MacEwen[7]

re: her husband:
Earl of March

'Patrike de Dunebarre', knight, serving with the army of King
Edward I in Scotland
fought at the Battle of Falkirk, 22 July 1298 together with his father
: his arms are recorded as
' Gules a lion rampant a bordure argent semy of
cinquefoils of the field a label of three points azure'
(Falkirk Roll H36[8])
[the label was a difference, as his father the Earl was
then alive: his arms - Gules, a lion rampant - are noted
in the roll as ' les armes le Counte patrike ' ]

supporter of the English position in Scotland (opposed by his
wife); received Edward II after his defeat at Bannockburn,
25 June 1314 - permitted his departure from Dunbar by
ship (Barrow p. 330[9])

entered the peace of King Robert - *
Surety of the Arbroath Declaration, 6 April 1320 (Barrow pp. 424-8)[9]

* this may actually have been his son.

Spouse: Patrick of Dunbar
Birth: ca 1275[10],[11]
Father: Patrick of Dunbar, earl of March (<1242-1308)
Mother: Marjory Comyn
Marr: bef 1303[12]

Children: Patrick, earl of March (-1368)


1. Andrew B. W. MacEwen, "A Clarification of the Dunbar Pedigree,"
The Genealogist, Vol. 9, No. 2, 1991, pp. 229-241, cites Joseph
Stevenson, ed., Cronica de Mailros, E Codice Unico in Bibliotheca
Cottoniana Servato (Edinburgh, 1835), and other sources.
2. Douglas Richardson, "Plantagenet," Jan 20, 2003, email
royalancestry@msn.com.
3. William Fraser, "The Red Book of Menteith," Edinburgh: 1880,
.pdf image files provided by Genealogy.com http://www.genealogy.com,
history and evidences concerning the Earls and Earldom of Mentieth.
4. Ebenezer Henderson, LL.D, "The Annals of Dunfermline and Vicinity,
from the Earliest Authentic Period to the Present Time, A.D.
1069 - 1878," Glasgow: John Tweed, 1879, text available courtesy
of Electric Scotland,
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/dunfermline/
5. Richard Borthwick, "Marjorie, Natural Daughter of Alexander II
of Scotland," Society of Medieval Genealogy (@rootsweb.com),
8 Nov 1999 (GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com).
6. "Clan Stirling,"
http://www.clanstirling.org/uploads/ragmanrolls.pdf
provides .pdf file of the names of those who swore allegiance
to Edward I of England at Berwick, 1296 (the 'Ragman Rolls').
7. Andrew B. W. MacEwen, "telephone conference re: (1) Agnes, wife
of Sir Patrick Hepburn," (2) Ermengarde, wife of Patrick, Earl
of Dunbar, and other matters, 11 May 2005, notes, library of
John P. Ravilious.
8. Brian Timms, "The Falkirk Roll," an occasional roll of arms of
those having fought at the Battle of Falkirk, July 1298,
http://www.briantimms.com/rolls/falkirkH.html
This is an occasional roll, listing those present at the
battle of Falkirk, which was fought on 22 July 1298, when the
forces of Edward I defeated a Scottish army under
William Wallace. It is accepted that the roll was composed
shortly afterwards. The original blazon is in the Anglo-Norman
dialect, from a copy of the roll made by Robert Glover, c1585.
The source of this blazon is Gerard J Brault, Rolls of Arms of
Edward I, Society of Antiquaries, London, 1996.
9. G. W. S. Barrow, "Robert Bruce and the Community of the Realm of
Scotland," Edinburgh University Press, 1976 (2nd ed.).
10. Andrew B. W. MacEwen, "telephone conference re: (1) Patrick,
[8th] Earl of Dunbar," and (2) the ancestry of George, Earl of
Dunbar (fl. 1340-1420), and other matters, 4 August 2005, notes,
library of John P. Ravilious.
11. John P. Ravilious, "Dunbar dilemmas: Patrick, [8th] Earl of
Dunbar," 4 August 2005, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, re: evidence
from research of Andrew B. W. MacEwen concerning Patrick,
[8th] Earl of Dunbar [fl. ca. 1275 - ].
12. Sir James Balfour Paul, ed., "The Scots Peerage," Edinburgh:
David Douglas, 1904-1914 (9 volumes).



WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 11/19/05 5:48:33 AM Pacific Standard Time, therav3@aol.com
writes:

Spouse: Alan Durward

Children: Ermengarde, m. William de Soulis [DESCENDANTS]


SNIP


Which Earl Patrick of Dunbar is she supposed to have married ?
The one who died 1320/4 ? The one who died 1308 maybe ?
maybe even the one who died 1289 ..... now wouldn't that be interesting.

Will Johnson

John P. Ravilious

Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 01 des 2005 05:33:18

Dear Will,

As opposed to modifying Hubert de Burgh's date of death, I'd
ascribe the date discrepancy as more likely due to a divorce, or the
annulment of the marriage, say 1234/5.

This is a conjecture only;

Cheers,

John


WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 11/19/05 5:48:33 AM Pacific Standard Time, therav3@aol.com
writes:

Spouse: Hubert de Burgh
Death: bef 5 May 1243, Banstead, Surrey[1],[9]
Father: NN de Burgh
Mother: Alice
Marr: 1221

Children: Margaret


1.2b Margaret of Scotland* (See above)
----------------------------------------

Spouse: Gilbert Marshal [2nd husband]
Death: 27 Jun 1241, d.s.p., near Hertford[1]
Father: William Marshal (~1146-1219)
Mother: Isabel de Clare (-1220)
Marr: 1 Aug 1235, Berwick, Scotland[1]


John to be consistent, if your theory is that Margaret and Marjory are the
same daughter as here. Shouldn't you say than that Hugh died BEF 1 Aug 1235
when she married the second time?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 des 2005 06:03:01

In a message dated 11/30/05 8:37:25 PM Pacific Standard Time, therav3@aol.com
writes:

<< The Earl Patrick conjectured as husband of Ermengarde (de Soulis)
is the one who allegedly (1) was born say 1275, and (2) who d. ca.
1320/1324. >>

But John since her mother died BEF 1241 per you, that would mean that Patrick
is here marrying a woman more than 30 years his senior and by her having an
heir ?

Something is amiss. Maybe it's me.
Will Johnson

John P. Ravilious

Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 01 des 2005 11:59:10

Dear Will,

The proposed line of descent runs as follows:

1. Alexander II, K of Scots

1. 2. Margery of Scotland = Alan Durward

1. 2. 1. Ermengarde Durward = William de Soulis

1. 2. 1. 2. Ermengarde de Soulis = Patrick, E of Dunbar

Neither Ermengarde of Scotland (1. 1.) or Nicholas de Soulis (1.
2. 1. 1.) are in the direct line. Ermengarde (1. 1.) is the sister of
Margery (1. 2.), but which one was actually the older is unknown: they
are presented in this order as an attempt to keep the generations
together (same with Nicholas and Ermengarde de Soulis).

Sorry for any confusion.

Cheers,

John

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 11/30/05 8:37:25 PM Pacific Standard Time, therav3@aol.com
writes:

The Earl Patrick conjectured as husband of Ermengarde (de Soulis)
is the one who allegedly (1) was born say 1275, and (2) who d. ca.
1320/1324.

But John since her mother died BEF 1241 per you, that would mean that Patrick
is here marrying a woman more than 30 years his senior and by her having an
heir ?

Something is amiss. Maybe it's me.
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 des 2005 16:46:02

In a message dated 12/1/2005 3:07:40 AM Pacific Standard Time,
therav3@aol.com writes:

1. 2. 1. Ermengarde Durward = William de Soulis

1. 2. 1. 2. Ermengarde de Soulis = Patrick, E of Dunbar


But still he is marrying a woman more than 30 years his senior.
AND this connection is used, isn't it, to show the descent of the name
Ermengarde?
So would a child really be named for a step-relation?
Thanks
Will

John P. Ravilious

Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 01 des 2005 20:45:52

Dear Will,

I see the chronology (estimated where noted) as follows:

1. Alexander II, K of Scots fl. 1198-1249


1. 2. Margery of Scotland born say 1220/1230= Alan Durward


1. 2. 1. Ermengarde Durward born say 1245/1255 = William de
Soulis


1. 2. 1. 2. Ermengarde de Soulis born say 1275/1285
= 1303 or before to Patrick, E of Dunbar (fl. say
1275-1320 or later)


I don't see a chronology problem here.....

Cheers,

John




WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 12/1/2005 3:07:40 AM Pacific Standard Time,
therav3@aol.com writes:

1. 2. 1. Ermengarde Durward = William de Soulis

1. 2. 1. 2. Ermengarde de Soulis = Patrick, E of Dunbar


But still he is marrying a woman more than 30 years his senior.
AND this connection is used, isn't it, to show the descent of the name
Ermengarde?
So would a child really be named for a step-relation?
Thanks
Will

Gjest

Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 des 2005 20:48:02

In a message dated 11/30/05 8:37:25 PM Pacific Standard Time, therav3@aol.com
writes:

<< The Earl Patrick conjectured as husband of Ermengarde (de Soulis)
is the one who allegedly (1) was born say 1275, and (2) who d. ca.
1320/1324. >>

Well why does she have to marry this one?
Why not his father? Or even his grandfather?
What's the documentary support for which one she married?
Thanks
Will Johnson

John P. Ravilious

Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 01 des 2005 20:50:24

Dear Will,

Following is the account from CP IV:507-8, sub DUNBAR, verbatim.
Note, this is the (in my opinion) "conflated" Patrick, shown as m.
1stly to Ermengarde, 2ndly to Agnes Randolph.

Cheers,

John


" VIII. 1308. 8. PATRICK (DE DUNBAR), EARL OF MARCH, or DUNBAR
[S.], b. about 1285; was with his father in 1300 (when
but 15) at Carlaverock. He was aged 24 in 1308/9, having had livery
of his father's lands 10 Nov. 1308. He, like his father, favoured
the English faction, and after the defeat of Edward II at
Bannockburn, 24 June 1314, received him into his castle of Dunbar and
enabled him to escape to England. After losing this unexampled
opportunity of serving his countrymen, he went over to their side,
and was in the Parl. at Ayr in Apr. 1315, when the succession to the
Crown [S.] was settled; was at the capture of Berwick, Mar. 1318,
then being Sheriff of Lothian; signed the letter, 1320, to the Pope
asserting the independence of Scotland; was at the defeat of Dupplin,
12 Aug. 1332, and of Halidon Hill, 19 July 1333, at which time
the fort of Berwick, of which he was Governor, was surrendered to
Edward III, and he himself for the 2nd time joined the English side,
which he again, in the next year, deserted, and assisted in some
small skirmishes against them, while his gallant Countess maintained
a nineteen weeks' siege, from Jan. 1337/8, of the Castle of Dunbar by
the English, whom she forced to retire therefrom <c>. He was at the
defeat of the Scots in the battle of Durham, 17 Oct. 1346, and was
one of the sureties for the release of David II from captivity in
1357, receiving from him various grants, the town of Dunbar being
erected a free burgh in his favour. On 18 Feb. 1360/1 he is
described in Close Rolls as an enemy and rebel whose lands are
forfeited. He m., 1stly, in or shortly before 1303, Ermengarde. On
26 June 1304 she is mentioned as being pregnant. He m. 2ndly,
shortly after Sep. 1320, Agnes <d>, elder da. of Thomas (RANDOLPH),
1st Earl of Moray [S.], sometime Regent [S.], by Isabel, (probably)
da. of Sir John Stewart, of Bonkill. This lady, usually known as
"Black Agnes", the heroine (as before mentioned) of the siege of
Dunbar, became (17 Oct. 1346) by the death of her br., John, 3rd Earl
of Moray [S.], a coh. of that family, whose estates included the Isle
of Man, the Lordship of Annandale, &c. She was living 24 May 1367.
Earl Patrick in her right had, 1357-8, a grant of the EARLDOM <a> OF
MORAY [S.]. Both his sons being dead, s.p., he resigned his
Earldom of March, or Dunbar, to the Crown, who granted the same, 25
July 1368, to his great-nephew and h. male, George Dunbar and "his
heirs." <c> He d. soon afterwards, 11 Nov. 1368 (having possessed
his Earldom 60 years), aged about 83. "


<NOTES, from CP IV:507>


<c> They were commanded by William (de Montagu), Earl of
Salisbury, &c. &c. [text discontinued: no documentation].\
<d> He had Papal disp., 18 Aug. 1320, to m. Agnes, da. of Ralph
[i.e. Randolph] of the diocese of St. Andrews, related to
him in the 4th degree, and again 16 Jan. 1323/4, to remain m.
to her though related in the 3rd and 4th degree. V.G.


<NOTES, from CP IV:508>


<a> The Earldom of Moray [S.} as conferred on Sir Thomas Randolph
in 1314 was a male fief. It was, however, again conferred
9 Mar. 1371/2 on John de Dunbar, next br. of Earl George (who
apparently was heir of line), both being sons of Sir Patrick
Dunbar, by Isabel, yst. da. of Thomas (Randolph), Earl of Moray
abovenamed.
Their names were Patrick, who was b. 1304 and d. before 5
Sep. 1351, and John, living 5 Sep. 1351, and 5 Oct. 1354, who
d. before (this date) July 1368.
<c> This is the first record of any charter settling the title.
In it the Earl is called Patricius Dunbarr, miles, ultimus
Comes ejusdem, referring to the words totum comitatium
marchie which appear in the line above. (ex. inform.
A. H. Dunbar).




WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 11/30/05 8:37:25 PM Pacific Standard Time, therav3@aol.com
writes:

The Earl Patrick conjectured as husband of Ermengarde (de Soulis)
is the one who allegedly (1) was born say 1275, and (2) who d. ca.
1320/1324.

Well why does she have to marry this one?
Why not his father? Or even his grandfather?
What's the documentary support for which one she married?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Svar

Gå tilbake til «soc.genealogy.medieval»