C.P. Addition: Joan de Mowbray, wife of Sir Robert de Mohaut

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Douglas Richardson

C.P. Addition: Joan de Mowbray, wife of Sir Robert de Mohaut

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 16 nov 2005 08:46:29

Dear Newsgroup ~

The authoritative Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 14 (sub Mohaut) has an
account of the brief life of Robert de Mohaut (died 1275), of Hawarden
Castle, Flintshire. Regarding his marriage and death, the following
brief information is given:

"He married circa 1261 Joan, daughter of Roger de Mowbray. He died
shortly before 16 September 1275. His widow's dower was assigned Oct.
1275. She was dead in 8 Edward II."

The interesting work, Flint Pleas 1283-1285, edited by J. Goronwy
Edwards (Flintshire Hist. Soc. 8) (1922), pp. 21-22 includes pleas
concerning the men of Flint against the Welsh in the Cantred of
Englefield dated 11 January 1284. In the first plea cited, King Edward
I sued "Joan who was the wife of Robert de Mohaut" in a plea "that she
return to him the vill of Killins with its appurtenances" and other
lands which he claimed "as of right, etc. and because they were
alienated from the lord King's domain of his manor of Ewloe" without
his assent and permission. Thus, it appears that Joan de Mowbray,
widow of Robert de Mohaut, was living 11 January 1284. Ewloe is
presumably the same location as Enlowe, part of Hawarden lordship,
where Joan had her dowry lands.

A search of the helpful online A2A Catalogue has also turned up two
items which pertain to Joan de Mowbray, widow of Robert de Mohaut.
These items are copied below. The first item below indicates that
Joan's husband, Robert de Mohaut, was a knight; also that she was
dealing with the manor of Nether Bradley, Cheshire during in her
widowhood. The first item also mentions Joan de Mowbray's seal which
displays a lion on a shield. The first document is misdated as being
from the period, 1275-1290. The first witness, Sir Reynold de Grey,
then Justiciar of Chester, was appointed to that position in 1281 for
an 8 year term, and reappointed in 1290, for another 9 year term
[Reference: Complete Peerage, 6 (1926): 182 (sub Grey)]. Thus, the
first document must date from after Michaelmas 1281, not 1275.

For interest's sake, I've listed below the various 17th Century New
World immigrants who descend from Joan (de Mowbray) de Mohaut:

Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah
Blakiston, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Anne, Elizabeth & John
Mansfield, William Skepper.

For further particulars on Joan (de Mowbray) de Mohaut's ancestry and
descendants, please see Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry
(2005).

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Source: A2A Catalogue (http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp)

1. Cheshire and Chester Archives and Local Studies Service:
Cholmondeley of Cholmondeley , Reference: DCH/F/803
Creation dates: (1275-90)
Language: Latin

Scope and Content

QUITCLAIM by Lady Jane de Monte alto, formerly wife of Sir Robert de
Monte alto, to William son of Gerard and his heirs, of 40/- annual rent
in which he was bound to her for the Manor of NETHER BRADELEY with
appurts. for her life.

Witnesses: Sir Reginald de Grey, then justiciar of Chester, Sir Richard
de Mascy, Sir John de Orreby, Sir Hugh de Dutton, Sir John Boydel Kts.,
Alexander de Baumvyle, William de Hellesby, Henry chamberlain of
Frodesham. n/d.

Seal, brown, figure of a woman, her feet resting on a [...] holding in
the dexter hand a shield on which is a lion [...] and in the sinister
hand a bird, legend "S' Johanne de [...] Alto". Parchment.

2. Cheshire and Chester Archives and Local Studies Service:
Cholmondeley of Cholmondeley , Reference: DCH/F/810
Creation dates: (1275-90)
Language: Latin

Scope and Content

ASSIGNMENT by Roger Trosle to William son of Gerard and his heirs, of
all his right and claim in the Manor of NETHERR BRADELEGH, which sd.
Manor he had for a term from Lady Jane de Monte Alto, as is evidenced
by the charter made between the sd. Jane and himself; to hold to the
sd. William and his heirs of the sd. Lady Jane de Monte Alto until the
end of the term contained in the charter of the sd. Lady Jane, at an
annual rent to her of 40/- at the terms mentioned in the sd. charter
and ½ mark to the Lord of Frodsham; reserving to the sd. Roger the
crop growing on the land at the time of the making hereof and other
chattels, moveable and immoveable, found in the sd. Manor, and placing
in all the buildings except the cattle-shed his corn and (utencilia)
until the feast of Pentecost, the sd. William indemnifying him towards
the sd. Lady Jane for the sd. assignment.

Witnesses: Robert chamberlain of Frodsham, John de Bradelegh, Philip de
Ponte, Richard Rotour. n/d.

Seal, missing from tag. Indented Cyrograph. Parchment.

Leo

Blowing ones own trumpet Re: C.P. Addition: Joan de Mowbray,

Legg inn av Leo » 16 nov 2005 11:03:02

Yet another breach of nettiquet, "do see Magna Carta Ancestry by Douglas
Richardson"

This interesting message seems to me a cheap excuse for self-advertising. As
"the" expert on Gateway Ancestors, I had expected that he also would have
mentioned William Farrar, Afra Harleston, Temperence Gilbert, Richard
Bellingham and Charles Rodes. Why he omitted them from his "various" I do
not understand, after all, there are not too many to mention.

Other interesting descendants, worthy of mentioning, John Ravilious, Brom
Nichol Jr. Calvin Coolidge, Lady Caroline Lamb, Alice Keppel, Lady Elizabeth
Bowes-Lyon, Lady Diana Spencer, Sarah Ferguson and Camilla, Duchess of
Cornwall.

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas

----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2005 6:46 PM
Subject: C.P. Addition: Joan de Mowbray, wife of Sir Robert de Mohaut


Dear Newsgroup ~

The authoritative Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 14 (sub Mohaut) has an
account of the brief life of Robert de Mohaut (died 1275), of Hawarden
Castle, Flintshire. Regarding his marriage and death, the following
brief information is given:

"He married circa 1261 Joan, daughter of Roger de Mowbray. He died
shortly before 16 September 1275. His widow's dower was assigned Oct.
1275. She was dead in 8 Edward II."

The interesting work, Flint Pleas 1283-1285, edited by J. Goronwy
Edwards (Flintshire Hist. Soc. 8) (1922), pp. 21-22 includes pleas
concerning the men of Flint against the Welsh in the Cantred of
Englefield dated 11 January 1284. In the first plea cited, King Edward
I sued "Joan who was the wife of Robert de Mohaut" in a plea "that she
return to him the vill of Killins with its appurtenances" and other
lands which he claimed "as of right, etc. and because they were
alienated from the lord King's domain of his manor of Ewloe" without
his assent and permission. Thus, it appears that Joan de Mowbray,
widow of Robert de Mohaut, was living 11 January 1284. Ewloe is
presumably the same location as Enlowe, part of Hawarden lordship,
where Joan had her dowry lands.

A search of the helpful online A2A Catalogue has also turned up two
items which pertain to Joan de Mowbray, widow of Robert de Mohaut.
These items are copied below. The first item below indicates that
Joan's husband, Robert de Mohaut, was a knight; also that she was
dealing with the manor of Nether Bradley, Cheshire during in her
widowhood. The first item also mentions Joan de Mowbray's seal which
displays a lion on a shield. The first document is misdated as being
from the period, 1275-1290. The first witness, Sir Reynold de Grey,
then Justiciar of Chester, was appointed to that position in 1281 for
an 8 year term, and reappointed in 1290, for another 9 year term
[Reference: Complete Peerage, 6 (1926): 182 (sub Grey)]. Thus, the
first document must date from after Michaelmas 1281, not 1275.

For interest's sake, I've listed below the various 17th Century New
World immigrants who descend from Joan (de Mowbray) de Mohaut:

Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah
Blakiston, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Anne, Elizabeth & John
Mansfield, William Skepper.

For further particulars on Joan (de Mowbray) de Mohaut's ancestry and
descendants, please see Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry
(2005).

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Source: A2A Catalogue (http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp)

1. Cheshire and Chester Archives and Local Studies Service:
Cholmondeley of Cholmondeley , Reference: DCH/F/803
Creation dates: (1275-90)
Language: Latin

Scope and Content

QUITCLAIM by Lady Jane de Monte alto, formerly wife of Sir Robert de
Monte alto, to William son of Gerard and his heirs, of 40/- annual rent
in which he was bound to her for the Manor of NETHER BRADELEY with
appurts. for her life.

Witnesses: Sir Reginald de Grey, then justiciar of Chester, Sir Richard
de Mascy, Sir John de Orreby, Sir Hugh de Dutton, Sir John Boydel Kts.,
Alexander de Baumvyle, William de Hellesby, Henry chamberlain of
Frodesham. n/d.

Seal, brown, figure of a woman, her feet resting on a [...] holding in
the dexter hand a shield on which is a lion [...] and in the sinister
hand a bird, legend "S' Johanne de [...] Alto". Parchment.

2. Cheshire and Chester Archives and Local Studies Service:
Cholmondeley of Cholmondeley , Reference: DCH/F/810
Creation dates: (1275-90)
Language: Latin

Scope and Content

ASSIGNMENT by Roger Trosle to William son of Gerard and his heirs, of
all his right and claim in the Manor of NETHERR BRADELEGH, which sd.
Manor he had for a term from Lady Jane de Monte Alto, as is evidenced
by the charter made between the sd. Jane and himself; to hold to the
sd. William and his heirs of the sd. Lady Jane de Monte Alto until the
end of the term contained in the charter of the sd. Lady Jane, at an
annual rent to her of 40/- at the terms mentioned in the sd. charter
and ½ mark to the Lord of Frodsham; reserving to the sd. Roger the
crop growing on the land at the time of the making hereof and other
chattels, moveable and immoveable, found in the sd. Manor, and placing
in all the buildings except the cattle-shed his corn and (utencilia)
until the feast of Pentecost, the sd. William indemnifying him towards
the sd. Lady Jane for the sd. assignment.

Witnesses: Robert chamberlain of Frodsham, John de Bradelegh, Philip de
Ponte, Richard Rotour. n/d.

Seal, missing from tag. Indented Cyrograph. Parchment.



John Brandon

Re: Blowing ones own trumpet Re: C.P. Addition: Joan de Mowb

Legg inn av John Brandon » 16 nov 2005 16:25:02

Yet another breach of nettiquet, "do see Magna Carta Ancestry by Douglas
Richardson"

This interesting message seems to me a cheap excuse for self-advertising. As
"the" expert on Gateway Ancestors, I had expected that he also would have
mentioned William Farrar, Afra Harleston, Temperence Gilbert, Richard
Bellingham and Charles Rodes. Why he omitted them from his "various" I do
not understand, after all, there are not too many to mention.

Other interesting descendants, worthy of mentioning, John Ravilious, Brom
Nichol Jr. Calvin Coolidge, Lady Caroline Lamb, Alice Keppel, Lady Elizabeth
Bowes-Lyon, Lady Diana Spencer, Sarah Ferguson and Camilla, Duchess of
Cornwall.

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas

Actually, Temperance Gilbert is not a gateway ancestor (she was the
mother of Elizabeth Alsop, the immigrant, whom Doug listed). So ya
might want to check yr. facts before having a fit.

Don Stone

Re: Blowing ones own trumpet Re: C.P. Addition: Joan de Mowb

Legg inn av Don Stone » 16 nov 2005 16:35:32

Leo wrote:
Yet another breach of nettiquet, "do see Magna Carta Ancestry by Douglas
Richardson"

Leo,

I don't think "For further particulars on Joan (de Mowbray) de Mohaut's
ancestry and descendants, please see Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta
Ancestry (2005)" is a breach of nettiquet. It isn't an explicit sales
pitch; it points out where further information relevant to the topic of the
post can be found.

-- Don Stone

John Higgins

Re: Blowing ones own trumpet Re: C.P. Addition: Joan de Mowb

Legg inn av John Higgins » 17 nov 2005 23:33:02

I agree with Don's comment. This is a citation, not a sales pitch.
Whatever one may think of Richardson's works, he certainly shouldn't be
forbidden from citing them solely because he is the author.

There's been a great deal of Richardson-bashing here - much of it with a
valid basis, and often brought on by his own conduct. But here I think he
made a legitimate effort to avoid a sales pitch while citing a reference
which has at least some value. I think the criticism in this case is not
justified. He doesn't even refer to it as "my book"!! :-)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Stone" <don.stone@verizon.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2005 7:35 AM
Subject: Re: Blowing ones own trumpet Re: C.P. Addition: Joan de Mowbray,
wife of Sir Robert de Mohaut


Leo wrote:
Yet another breach of nettiquet, "do see Magna Carta Ancestry by Douglas
Richardson"

Leo,

I don't think "For further particulars on Joan (de Mowbray) de Mohaut's
ancestry and descendants, please see Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta
Ancestry (2005)" is a breach of nettiquet. It isn't an explicit sales
pitch; it points out where further information relevant to the topic of
the
post can be found.

-- Don Stone

Terry

Re: Blowing ones own trumpet Re: C.P. Addition: Joan de Mowb

Legg inn av Terry » 18 nov 2005 00:04:03

And by way of information, I spoke with Mr. Richardson by phone, asking
about his books, he was kind enough to tell me which libraries already had
the books so I could look there.
Terry L. Mair
Mair's Photography
158 South 580 East
Midway, Utah 84049
435-654-3607
http://www.mairsphotography.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Stone" <don.stone@verizon.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2005 8:35 AM
Subject: Re: Blowing ones own trumpet Re: C.P. Addition: Joan de Mowbray,
wife of Sir Robert de Mohaut


Leo wrote:
Yet another breach of nettiquet, "do see Magna Carta Ancestry by Douglas
Richardson"

Leo,

I don't think "For further particulars on Joan (de Mowbray) de Mohaut's
ancestry and descendants, please see Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta
Ancestry (2005)" is a breach of nettiquet. It isn't an explicit sales
pitch; it points out where further information relevant to the topic of
the post can be found.

-- Don Stone



Leo

Re: Blowing ones own trumpet Re: C.P. Addition: Joan de Mowb

Legg inn av Leo » 18 nov 2005 00:49:01

In the Richardson tradition it is his way of keeping his books in the
attention of Gen-Med.
Especially as his trying to "sell" the interest by quoting only a few of the
Gateway Ancestors, he did a sloppy job, and why did he a sloppy job? To
bring his book again to the attention.
After all Magna Carta may be a book in which Joan de Mowbray is mentioned as
a descendant of MC Sureties, she is not mentioned in his Plantagenet
Ancestry where she, having at least 16 Gateway Ancestors as descendants, she
equally belongs as she is a fairly close descendant of King Henry II.

If he wanted to do a thorough job he should have mentioned the CP entry of
Joan de Mowbray in the Mowbray family entry, after all he is referring to
her ancestors and descendants. The Mowbray family entry is after all in the
same volume as the Mohaut entry, CP Volume IX page 376 clearly states Joan's
parents, grandparents and further ancestors.

But no, Richardson singling out his own book is legitimate, not an attempt
to advertising his wares? Subliminal advertising is not a sales pitch?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Stone" <don.stone@verizon.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 2:35 AM
Subject: Re: Blowing ones own trumpet Re: C.P. Addition: Joan de Mowbray,
wife of Sir Robert de Mohaut


Leo wrote:
Yet another breach of nettiquet, "do see Magna Carta Ancestry by Douglas
Richardson"

Leo,

I don't think "For further particulars on Joan (de Mowbray) de Mohaut's
ancestry and descendants, please see Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta
Ancestry (2005)" is a breach of nettiquet. It isn't an explicit sales
pitch; it points out where further information relevant to the topic of
the post can be found.

-- Don Stone


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