heraldry

Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper

Svar
David Armstrong

heraldry

Legg inn av David Armstrong » 15 nov 2005 04:09:02

I am new to the list and saw something in the archives I want to ask about.
In October last someone wrote and said that they found several families in
England with the same coat of arms as theirs. They asked if this meant a
family connection. Someone else wrote and said that it was more likely
evidence of a FEUDAL connection. Well, I am in the same boat with my coat
of arms so if that person is still on the list could you please tell me what
is meant by a possible FEUDAL connection? Thanks in advance to anyone who
answers me!

Best Regards

David Armstrong
Elkins, WV

Terry

Re: heraldry

Legg inn av Terry » 15 nov 2005 05:15:20

Hello David
I am not that person, but I would think they meant a people who where
connected to a feudal over lord but not necessarily connected by blood,
anciently the arms of the Earl of Chester had three wheat chiefs or cumin
chiefs on them, several families adopted similar arms to show a connection
or loyalty.
I hope this helps.
Terry L. Mair
Mair's Photography
158 South 580 East
Midway, Utah 84049
435-654-3607
http://www.mairsphotography.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Armstrong" <heraldry@meer.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 7:05 PM
Subject: heraldry


I am new to the list and saw something in the archives I want to ask about.
In October last someone wrote and said that they found several families in
England with the same coat of arms as theirs. They asked if this meant a
family connection. Someone else wrote and said that it was more likely
evidence of a FEUDAL connection. Well, I am in the same boat with my coat
of arms so if that person is still on the list could you please tell me
what is meant by a possible FEUDAL connection? Thanks in advance to anyone
who answers me!

Best Regards

David Armstrong
Elkins, WV



Gjest

Re: heraldry

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 nov 2005 07:34:10

"Terry" schrieb:

Hello David
I am not that person, but I would think they meant a people who where
connected to a feudal over lord but not necessarily connected by blood,
anciently the arms of the Earl of Chester had three wheat chiefs

I think that should be "sheaves" rather than chiefs, although
heraldically (as in the Chester arms) they are styled 'garbs'.

MAR

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: heraldry

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 15 nov 2005 09:09:25

In message of 15 Nov, heraldry@meer.net ("David Armstrong") wrote:

I am new to the list and saw something in the archives I want to ask
about. In October last someone wrote and said that they found
several families in England with the same coat of arms as theirs.
They asked if this meant a family connection. Someone else wrote
and said that it was more likely evidence of a FEUDAL connection.
Well, I am in the same boat with my coat of arms so if that person
is still on the list could you please tell me what is meant by a
possible FEUDAL connection? Thanks in advance to anyone who answers
me!

The other possibility is that there was no connection and it was just
the accident of two minor families who did not know of one another and
lived hundreds of miles apart and chose the same design.

I am of course applying Ockham's razor: do not multiply entities beyond
necessity.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Terry

Re: heraldry

Legg inn av Terry » 15 nov 2005 17:37:03

My spelling is so bad that even the spell check isn't sure ;-)
Yes that should have been Garbs.
Terry L. Mair
Mair's Photography
158 South 580 East
Midway, Utah 84049
435-654-3607
http://www.mairsphotography.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <mjcar@btinternet.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 11:34 PM
Subject: Re: heraldry


"Terry" schrieb:

Hello David
I am not that person, but I would think they meant a people who where
connected to a feudal over lord but not necessarily connected by blood,
anciently the arms of the Earl of Chester had three wheat chiefs

I think that should be "sheaves" rather than chiefs, although
heraldically (as in the Chester arms) they are styled 'garbs'.

MAR



Terry

Re: heraldry

Legg inn av Terry » 15 nov 2005 17:43:01

There is the story of Brian FitzAlan, and Hugh Points having the same arms
at Carlaverock and causing quite the dispute between them.

Terry L. Mair
Mair's Photography
158 South 580 East
Midway, Utah 84049
435-654-3607
http://www.mairsphotography.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Powys-Lybbe" <tim@powys.org>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 1:09 AM
Subject: Re: heraldry


In message of 15 Nov, heraldry@meer.net ("David Armstrong") wrote:

I am new to the list and saw something in the archives I want to ask
about. In October last someone wrote and said that they found
several families in England with the same coat of arms as theirs.
They asked if this meant a family connection. Someone else wrote
and said that it was more likely evidence of a FEUDAL connection.
Well, I am in the same boat with my coat of arms so if that person
is still on the list could you please tell me what is meant by a
possible FEUDAL connection? Thanks in advance to anyone who answers
me!

The other possibility is that there was no connection and it was just
the accident of two minor families who did not know of one another and
lived hundreds of miles apart and chose the same design.

I am of course applying Ockham's razor: do not multiply entities beyond
necessity.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org



Gjest

Re: heraldry

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 nov 2005 00:23:02

Dear Terry and others,
As has been noted the three garbs symbol was
shared by a number of medieval families but with a varierty of color schemes
Chester was azure three garbs or, a pattern which has been used by Cumming of
Altyre for the last few centuries, Segrave originally seems to have been sable
three garbs argent, Comyn of Buchan bore gules three garbs or while their
cousin Comyn of Badenoch bore gules three garbs argent. The Comyn of Badenoch
family in the last four generations was connected to Chester through marriage
and descent. David de Scotia, Earl of Huntingdon being husband of one of Ranulf,
the last Earl of Chester`s sisters, their daughter Margaret was 2nd wife of
Alan, Lord of Galloway, their eldest daughter Devorguilla being wife of John
Baliol whose daughter Alianora Baliol married John Comyn of Badenoch. I know of
no link offhand between Chester and Segrave or Chester and Comyn of Buchan
however.
Heraldic colors gules- red, azure- blue, vert- green, pupure- purple
Heraldic metals- or -gold represented by yellow and argent - silver
represented by white
Heraldic furs- Sable- black, ermine- black dashes on white, vairy-
squirrel white with smaller black marks than ermine
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

David Armstrong

re:heraldry

Legg inn av David Armstrong » 16 nov 2005 02:22:01

Hi Terry, Tim and others:

Thanks to all of you for the input. I have learned (what I know) about
hareldry from the ground up. You guys are better educated in this than I.
I would welcome your additional comments if you have time. Some things come
to mind (PLEASE feel free to correct any misuse of heraldic wording on my
part - thanks):

-There are six persons who used the shield that my ancestor Thomas Sprigg
brought to Maryland on a seal ring: "Checky...a fess ermine" Five of these
are confirmed in the records of the College of Arms and one (my ancestor) is
not. Of the other 5 three are clustered in an area on the Norfolk-Suffolk
border. Could this be suggestive of a "Feudal relationship"? The other two
are scattered: Wales and Wiltshire. One of the outliers uses the same
shield AND colors as one of the ones in Norfolk. Could this double repeat
be suggestive of a connection between them, any more than the identical
shield alone would be? Of the Norfolk bunch, one of the confirmed
individuals has the Sprigg name, he being one Lawrence Spriggy whose
existence is proven by the Patent Rolls of the 1360s. Interestingly,
even though there is a seperate section that lists non-nights, Lawrence
Spriggy of Norfolk does not show up in the "Armigerous Knights in the
County Roll of Arms" prepared in Norfolk in 1395, but one of the others
using that shield in Norfolk does. So either the list is incomplete or the
information in the 1561 visitation that shows Lawrence is phony. My Sprigg
was a 21 year old kid when he got off the boat in Virginia in 1651 and
married the wealthy and powerful Widow Roper, several years his senior and
sister in law of Governor Stone of Maryland. In one deposition Sprigg
mentions in passing that he had known the King of England. So he is a
person I would EXPECT to be English Gentry, a fifth son based on the mark of
cadency he used on his shield. Are the College of Arms records complete? I
would have expected to find this guy's father there but alas Lawrence is the
only Sprigg confirmed with that shield and he apparently left no sons.
Could the shield have been something carried by an earlier Sprigg (before
the regulation of heraldry) and passed to Lawrence Spriggy (confirmed) and
my ancestor (perhaps illegally) independently? I have probably worn out my
welcome and asked too many questions already so I'll quit rambling. Just
one other thing...Terry - is there a place on line where I could read more
about the FitzAlan-Points controversy? Again thank you all and I would
welcome and solicit your further comment on the above.

Best Regards

David Armstrong
Elkins, WV

Tim Powys-Lybbe

re:heraldry

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 16 nov 2005 23:03:25

In message of 16 Nov, heraldry@meer.net ("David Armstrong") wrote:

-There are six persons who used the shield that my ancestor Thomas
Sprigg brought to Maryland on a seal ring: "Checky...a fess ermine"
Five of these are confirmed in the records of the College of Arms
and one (my ancestor) is not.

Which records in the College of Arms?

Of the other 5 three are clustered in an area on the Norfolk-Suffolk
border. Could this be suggestive of a "Feudal relationship"? The
other two are scattered: Wales and Wiltshire. One of the
outliers uses the same shield AND colors as one of the ones in
Norfolk. Could this double repeat be suggestive of a connection
between them, any more than the identical shield alone would be? Of
the Norfolk bunch, one of the confirmed individuals has the Sprigg
name, he being one Lawrence Spriggy whose existence is proven by the
Patent Rolls of the 1360s. Interestingly, even though there is a
seperate section that lists non-nights, Lawrence Spriggy of Norfolk
does not show up in the "Armigerous Knights in the County Roll of
Arms" prepared in Norfolk in 1395, but one of the others using that
shield in Norfolk does. So either the list is incomplete or the
information in the 1561 visitation that shows Lawrence is phony. My
Sprigg was a 21 year old kid when he got off the boat in Virginia in
1651 and married the wealthy and powerful Widow Roper, several years
his senior and sister in law of Governor Stone of Maryland. In one
deposition Sprigg mentions in passing that he had known the King of
England. So he is a person I would EXPECT to be English Gentry, a
fifth son based on the mark of cadency he used on his shield. Are
the College of Arms records complete?

No. Most of the C of A records are from data given to them by an
armiger (a chap who had arms). This chappie may have deliberately left
people out. And the herald may have refused to accept records more than
two generations previous to the chap. And the chap may just not have
known who his ancestors were. Or the chap may not have bothered to tell
them anything. Or the herald may not have bothered to write the record
down. Or the records have been lost.

In addition some of what is written down is wrong and some was
fraudulently wrong (see almost any of J H Round's entertaining
writings).

To me the really remarkable thing is that so much has survived from the
16th and 17th century activities of the heralds. They are always worth
consulting and then checking to see if any other evidence confirms them.

I would have expected to find this guy's father there but alas
Lawrence is the only Sprigg confirmed with that shield and he
apparently left no sons. Could the shield have been something
carried by an earlier Sprigg (before the regulation of heraldry) and
passed to Lawrence Spriggy (confirmed) and my ancestor (perhaps
illegally) independently?

Very easily, any of those. Some people have borrowed the arms of
others, as a few of my ancestors have done. Some may have inherited a
forefather's arms but not know it.

I have probably worn out my welcome and asked too many questions
already so I'll quit rambling. Just one other thing...Terry - is
there a place on line where I could read more about the
FitzAlan-Points controversy? Again thank you all and I would
welcome and solicit your further comment on the above.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Gjest

Re: re:heraldry

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 nov 2005 13:08:55

"David Armstrong" wrote:
Hi Terry, Tim and others:

-There are six persons who used the shield that my ancestor Thomas Sprigg
brought to Maryland on a seal ring: "Checky...a fess ermine" Five of these
are confirmed in the records of the College of Arms and one (my ancestor) is
not. Of the other 5 three are clustered in an area on the Norfolk-Suffolk
border. Could this be suggestive of a "Feudal relationship"? The other two
are scattered: Wales and Wiltshire. One of the outliers uses the same
shield AND colors as one of the ones in Norfolk.

David

Just to observe that where the shields bear the same charges but
different colours, they are considered completely different coats,
albeit (as noted) the change in the colours while retaining the same
design can be indicative of early familial or feudal ties.

The fact that three were in a geographical cluster makes it more likely
that they are somehow related in such a fashion; the other two, being
as you say 'outliers' are perhaps less likely to be so involved and
more likely to be the result of independent adoption, given that there
is less likelihood of intimate contact because of the distance.

It would be interesting and perhaps instructive to know your sources
for each of these, and possibly the names of all five (in case someone
here can add something on that basis).

Regards

Michael

David Armstrong

Re: re:heraldry

Legg inn av David Armstrong » 17 nov 2005 23:56:02

Hi Michael:

My source for all of the shields and names is from a letter I got from the
College of Heralds where I paid one of the heralds to look at my ancestor
Thomas Sprigg's shield and tell me who in England carried it. I did not
know as much then as now (not a whole lot now) but I didn't expect that so
many people carried it. The source for my Thomas Sprigg carrying it is that
he impressed it in wax on a document in Maryland in 1698 (outside the time
frame of this list but relevant for the discussion). See my post to the
list yesterday for the names. I WELCOME your comments.

Do you (or anyone else) think that my finding someone in England carrying
the same shield as my ancestor who has the same last name means anything?
My guy came from Northamptonshire but there were no Spriggs there until a
generation after the armigerous Lawrence Spriggy in Norfolk, suggesting that
they came there in the next generation. Also my people in the 1400s in
Northamptonshire went by Spriggy also, like Lawrence did. One of the
"outliers" was St John of Bletso in Wiltshire and that family had members
living in Northamptonshire when mine did. So which is most likely: is my
Thomas related to Lawrence or did my Thomas usurp the shield of a prominent
family in his home County (St John family)?

BTW my Tom used the mark of cadency for a sisth son so he was apparently
following SOME of the standard rules of heraldry. Does this add anything?

Thanks to all who have offered comment on this. I wish everyone on the list
who has knowledge of heraldry would weigh in as I am unqualified to make a
decision.

Best Regards

David Armstrong
Elkins, WV
----- Original Message -----
From: <mjcar@btinternet.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 7:08 AM

It would be interesting and perhaps instructive to know your sources
for each of these, and possibly the names of all five (in case someone
here can add something on that basis).

Regards

Michael


David Armstrong

Re: re:heraldry

Legg inn av David Armstrong » 18 nov 2005 00:49:03

Hi Terry

I will gladly give information on who carried the same shield as Thomas
Sprigg. According to the College of Arms (who do not know my Sprigg) the
following persons had the arms "Checky...a fess ermine":

1. Calthorpe of Cockthorpe, Norfolk 1563, colors Or and Azure
2. Beckham of Narford, Norfolk 1613, colors Or and Sable
3. Rouse of Dennington, Suffolk 1561, color Azure and Or, Rouse having
quartered several arms and one was mine that he got through a maternal
connection back several generations with Lawrence Spriggy of Norfolk.
4. St John of Bletso, Wiltshire 1623, unidentified quartering colors Or and
Gules
5. Turberville of Crickhowell, Wales 1530, quartering color Or and Gules

Note that 3 of the five are in Norfolk. Any ideas? Do you have any
thoughts on my other questions of yesterday? I welcome and value the input
of all.

I found the Fitz Alan thing and some other such arguments in an article last
night but haven't had a chance to read it yet (found it at bed time, just
now got home from work).

Thanks for writing me.

Best Regards

David Armstrong
Elkins, WV
----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry" <terry@mairsphotography.com>
To: "David Armstrong" <heraldry@meer.net>


Hello David
Could you e mail me the other names you have found with arms which are
similar to the Sprigg arms you mention, this could help in answering your
question.
Thanks
Terry L. Mair

Svar

Gå tilbake til «soc.genealogy.medieval»