Fw: Ramiro III, King of Leon 966-85

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Leo

Fw: Ramiro III, King of Leon 966-85

Legg inn av Leo » 12 nov 2005 02:06:01

It is a pity Todd Farmerie did not include the regnal years. Also, according
to ES II Tafel 49
Alfonso III had an eldest (?) son Garcia I who was king of Leon 910-914.

ES also mentions Ramiro who put himself up as king of Leon and married his
brother Fruela II's widow Urraca. ES does not indicate that the two brothers
were married to the same woman. But ES gives by Urraca (wife of Fruela II)
that she was the daughter of Abdallah Ibn Mohammad Wali of Tudela, Chief of
the family Banu Qasi.

Urraca and Fruela II are shown to have had four children Ramiro, Eudo,
Portis and Uracca (sic). Uracca married before 969 Aznar Purcelis, who died
after 969 (I would hope so).
Is it known whether this couple has further descendants? It would give a
Muslim line into the Spain.

Best wishes
Leo van de Pas

----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2005 10:39 AM
Subject: Re: Ramiro III, King of Leon 966-85


maria emma escobar wrote:
Vermudo II and Ramiro III were cousins in first grade: their fathers:
Ordoño III (Vermudo II´s father) and Sancho I ( Ramiro III´s father) were
brothers, both Ramiro II´s sons.



Just to amplify for Will's sake, father-to-son transmission of the crown
was the exception, rather than the rule. Looking at the 11 kings
following Alfonso III, only three, Fruela II, Ordono III and Ramiro III
followed their father (and even Fruela only reigned over the entire
kingdom after reuniting a partition with his brother Garcia, sort of like
Alfonso VI would later do), through Vermudo II, then a more typical
pattern is seen:

1. Alfonso III
2. Fruela II, son of 1.
3. Ordono II, son of 1.
4. Alfonso Fruelaz, son of 2.
5. Sancho Ordonez, son of 3.
6. Alfonso IV, son of 3.
7. Ramiro II, son of 3.
8. Ordono III, son of 7 by first wife.
9. Ordono IV, son of 6.
10. Sancho I, son of 7 by second wife.
11. Ramiro III, son of 10.
12. Vermudo II, son of 8.
13. Alfonso V, son of 12.
14. Vermudo III, son of 13.
15. Fernando I, husband of Sancha, sister of 14.

Why aren't 4 & 5 numbered? Alfonso Fruelaz, Sancho Ordonez and Alfonso IV
all reigned in the same year. Alfonso, son of Fruela, briefly held sway
as the senior member of the next generation (his uncle Ramiro, who
apparently also married Fruela's widow, put himself up as senior agnate
but he never was able to mount a successful claim although he is sometimes
refered to as anti-King). Months later, Alfonso lost power to (and, IIRC,
was blinded by) his cousin Sancho, whose claim was as eldest son of
Ordono. Sancho's brother Alfonso took advantage of the instability, and
using the support of his father-in-law the King of Navarre supplanted his
brother before the end of the same year. They were recorded by the
best-known chronicler simply as Alfonso, then Sancho, then Alfonso, and
this was interpreted by later historians as a squable between the two sons
of Ordono, Alfonso succeeding, experiencing a winter of discontent at the
hands of his brother, and then a glorious summer. Hence he was numbered
as Alfonso IV, while Sancho was considered simply an interloping and
eventually unsuccessful anti-King or sub-King. It has since become clear
that the two Alfonsos, the ones before and after Sancho, were different
men, and that Sancho too was king, if only briefly. They all deserve
numbers, but it would cause too much confusion now, so Alfonso Fruelaz and
Sancho Ordonez are simply refered to by name and patronymic, as would have
been the case in their own time, (when mentioned at all, their brief
reigns being historically irrelevant).

Navarre also played a significant role in the later succession. Ramiro II
ran his brother Alfonso IV into a monastery, and was powerful enough and
reigned long enough to pass the crown to his adult son Ordono III. On his
death, Alfonso's son Ordono married his cousin's widow and claimed power,
but Ordono III's half-brother Sancho used his mother's Navarre connections
to take over (Sancho's mother was sister of Alfonso IV's wife, and also
sister of the wife of Fernan Gonzalez of Castile [the maternal grandson of
the anti-King Ramiro, above] whose daughter would marry in succession
Ordonos III and IV, so this is very much an inter-family squabble writ
large). He passed the crown to his son Ramiro III, but then a faction of
the nobles backed the son of Ordono III, Vermudo, and he rode that faction
to power, eventually supplanting his cousin Ramiro.

Finally, through much of the 20th century, Vermudo III has been considered
a bastard. This was argued by Perez de Urbel based on the fact that he
didn't immediately succeed his father (but we have seen the lack of
significance in that), a vague reference to his son Alfonso V being called
son of a mule (whatever that means), and strongest, a relational statement
in which Vermudo calls a certain Count Gonzalo Betotez his "grandfather"
(male ancestor), while neither Ordono III nor his wife descend from the
Count. As it turns out, Vermudo's wife did, and no distinction would have
been made between his ancestors and his wife's, so this evidence too does
not hold. There is no reason not to see him as legitimate son, too young
or with insufficient power base to resist the claims of his step-father
and uncle.

taf


Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Fw: Ramiro III, King of Leon 966-85

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 12 nov 2005 06:36:49

Leo wrote:
It is a pity Todd Farmerie did not include the regnal years. Also,

Sort of like saying it is a pity we can't all live in peace - it may be
true, but has no practical significance. Accurate dates were simply not
an option at the time I posted, from work while waiting for a phone
call. (Now that I am home, that has changed somewhat - now it's a pity
I don't have time to do what I was going to do tonight, since I spent
too much time digging up the damned dates.)

The real pity is that I misremembered the fiasco that terminated the
reign of Alfonso III, confusing the roles of Fruela, Ordono and Garcia.
That being said, had I remembered it correctly, what I posted still
would have been wrong, as the version I was trying to remember has been
superceded by more recent, and I think more accurate, analysis which I
have since brushed up on.


according to ES II Tafel 49
Alfonso III had an eldest (?) son Garcia I who was king of Leon 910-914.


So here is the scoop. The traditional version is that the three sons of
Alfonso III rebelled and overthrew their father, partitioning the
Kingdom into three parts (a process that had been begun by Alfonso
himself by appointing them sub-kings), with Fruela getting Asturias, the
ancient base of the kingdom, Ordono getting Galicia (including what is
now northern Portugal), and Garcia getting Leon, encompassing the newly
repopulated newly reconquered lands to the south, along with Castile.
Following the death of Garcia fighting the muslims, Ordono absorbed his
share, while when Ordono died, Fruela succeeded. That is the
traditional version, but in an article on Ordono, 'King of Galicia',
Ruben Garcia Alvarez presented a reasoned argument based on original
charters that this version needs to be replaced.

Garcia Alvarez version: Alfonso III appears to have much prefered his
second son, Ordono, over his first, Garcia. Among other things, he
appointed Ordono to govern Galicia, subservient to the king. This
proved the proverbial straw, and Garcia connived with the Castillians to
rebel against his father (but only he, among the sons, rebelled). In
this, he was successful, and his father gave up power in 910, but
although Garcia held the actual power, he appears not to have adopted
the regnal title until his father's death, at the end of the same year.
On his father's death, he then became King, but seemed content to
leave his brother Ordono in control of Galicia as he had been before his
father's death, and Ordono beginning to use the regnal title himself
after Alfonso died. As to Fruela, the only evidence that he reigned
during this time appears to be forged, and several charters show him at
Ordono's court, not using a royal title. Following the death of Garcia
in battle in 914, Ordono took over the entire kingdom, which was then
passed to Fruela at Ordono's death.

In the next generation, it was Alfonso Fruelaz who represented eldest
son of the previous monarch, and Sancho Ordonez the senior agnate.

Thus:

0. Alfonso III, d. 910, deposed earlier in the same year.
1. Garcia, son of 0, 910-914
2. Ordono II, son of 0, King of Galicia from 910, of Leon 914-924
3. Fruela II, son of 0,924-925
(apparent interregnum)
4. Alfonso Fruelaz, son of 3, 926-928, expelled.
5. Sancho Ordonez, son of 2, King of Galicia from 926, of Leon 928-928,
expelled.
6. Alfonso IV, son of 2, 928-931, abdicated
7. Ramiro II, son of 2, 931-950

(Saez Sanchez presents an alternative chronology, with Alfonso Fruelaz
being deposed in 926, and Sancho (Galicia), Alfonso IV (Leon), and
Ramiro II (Portugal) partitioning the crown, which was then reunited by
the death of Sancho (929) and abdication of Alfonso (930), but I have
followed the chronology derived from the regnal list in the Codice de
Roda, as interpreted by German de Pamplona.

8. Ordono III, son of 7 by first wife, 950-956
9. Ordono IV, son of 6, 956-958, rival king with 10, expelled.
10. Sancho I, son of 7 by second wife, 956-966, assassinated.
11. Ramiro III, son of 10, 966-85 (he was an infant at succession - the
actual ruler was his regent, aunt Elvira, a nun), expelled.
12. Vermudo II, son of 8, (rebel) King of Galicia from 981, of Leon 985-999.
13. Alfonso V, son of 12, 999-1028.
14. Vermudo III, son of 13, 1028-1037.
15. Fernando I, husband of Sancha, sister of 14, 1037-1065.


ES also mentions Ramiro who put himself up as king of Leon and married
his brother Fruela II's widow Urraca. ES does not indicate that the two
brothers were married to the same woman.

This is a deduction of Salazar Acha.


But ES gives by Urraca (wife of
Fruela II) that she was the daughter of Abdallah Ibn Mohammad Wali of
Tudela, Chief of the family Banu Qasi.

Urraca and Fruela II are shown to have had four children Ramiro, Eudo,
Portis and Uracca (sic). Uracca married before 969 Aznar Purcelis, who
died after 969 (I would hope so).
Is it known whether this couple has further descendants? It would give a
Muslim line into the Spain.

Fruela did marry Urraca, but as to his children, there has been numerous
attempts to trace from Fruela, most of them completely bogus, the rest
only partially bogus. I suspect that this list of children is not well
supported. The children that I know of being documented are: Alfonso,
son by an earlier wife, and Ordono and Ramiro, apparently sons of Urraca
(named as such in a reliable medieval account of the Banu Qasi). Ramiro
and Ordono led a rebellion during the reign of Ramiro II, and were
deprived of their land and their sight. Nothing more is known of them
or their descendants. The desire you have expressed for a muslim line
has led at least one author to speculate that Vermudo II was actually
son of Ordono IV, not Ordono III, and that Ordono IV was actually the
son of Fruela II, not Alfonso IV, thus making Vermudo grandson of
Urraca. Neither of these 'revisions' holds water.

taf

Gjest

Re: Fw: Ramiro III, King of Leon 966-85

Legg inn av Gjest » 12 nov 2005 10:00:44

Todd A. Farmerie schrieb:

Leo wrote:
It is a pity Todd Farmerie did not include the regnal years. Also,

Sort of like saying it is a pity we can't all live in peace - it may be
true, but has no practical significance. Accurate dates were simply not
an option at the time I posted, from work while waiting for a phone
call. (Now that I am home, that has changed somewhat - now it's a pity
I don't have time to do what I was going to do tonight, since I spent
too much time digging up the damned dates.)


Many thanks taf - your loss is our gain.

MAR

Leo

Re: Fw: Ramiro III, King of Leon 966-85

Legg inn av Leo » 12 nov 2005 10:29:02

Many thanks for the gracious reaction.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2005 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: Ramiro III, King of Leon 966-85


Leo wrote:
It is a pity Todd Farmerie did not include the regnal years. Also,

Sort of like saying it is a pity we can't all live in peace - it may be
true, but has no practical significance. Accurate dates were simply not
an option at the time I posted, from work while waiting for a phone call.
(Now that I am home, that has changed somewhat - now it's a pity I don't
have time to do what I was going to do tonight, since I spent too much
time digging up the damned dates.)

The real pity is that I misremembered the fiasco that terminated the reign
of Alfonso III, confusing the roles of Fruela, Ordono and Garcia. That
being said, had I remembered it correctly, what I posted still would have
been wrong, as the version I was trying to remember has been superceded by
more recent, and I think more accurate, analysis which I have since
brushed up on.


according to ES II Tafel 49
Alfonso III had an eldest (?) son Garcia I who was king of Leon 910-914.


So here is the scoop. The traditional version is that the three sons of
Alfonso III rebelled and overthrew their father, partitioning the Kingdom
into three parts (a process that had been begun by Alfonso himself by
appointing them sub-kings), with Fruela getting Asturias, the ancient base
of the kingdom, Ordono getting Galicia (including what is now northern
Portugal), and Garcia getting Leon, encompassing the newly repopulated
newly reconquered lands to the south, along with Castile. Following the
death of Garcia fighting the muslims, Ordono absorbed his share, while
when Ordono died, Fruela succeeded. That is the traditional version, but
in an article on Ordono, 'King of Galicia', Ruben Garcia Alvarez presented
a reasoned argument based on original charters that this version needs to
be replaced.

Garcia Alvarez version: Alfonso III appears to have much prefered his
second son, Ordono, over his first, Garcia. Among other things, he
appointed Ordono to govern Galicia, subservient to the king. This proved
the proverbial straw, and Garcia connived with the Castillians to rebel
against his father (but only he, among the sons, rebelled). In this, he
was successful, and his father gave up power in 910, but although Garcia
held the actual power, he appears not to have adopted the regnal title
until his father's death, at the end of the same year. On his father's
death, he then became King, but seemed content to leave his brother Ordono
in control of Galicia as he had been before his father's death, and Ordono
beginning to use the regnal title himself after Alfonso died. As to
Fruela, the only evidence that he reigned during this time appears to be
forged, and several charters show him at Ordono's court, not using a royal
title. Following the death of Garcia in battle in 914, Ordono took over
the entire kingdom, which was then passed to Fruela at Ordono's death.

In the next generation, it was Alfonso Fruelaz who represented eldest son
of the previous monarch, and Sancho Ordonez the senior agnate.

Thus:

0. Alfonso III, d. 910, deposed earlier in the same year.
1. Garcia, son of 0, 910-914
2. Ordono II, son of 0, King of Galicia from 910, of Leon 914-924
3. Fruela II, son of 0,924-925
(apparent interregnum)
4. Alfonso Fruelaz, son of 3, 926-928, expelled.
5. Sancho Ordonez, son of 2, King of Galicia from 926, of Leon 928-928,
expelled.
6. Alfonso IV, son of 2, 928-931, abdicated
7. Ramiro II, son of 2, 931-950

(Saez Sanchez presents an alternative chronology, with Alfonso Fruelaz
being deposed in 926, and Sancho (Galicia), Alfonso IV (Leon), and Ramiro
II (Portugal) partitioning the crown, which was then reunited by the death
of Sancho (929) and abdication of Alfonso (930), but I have followed the
chronology derived from the regnal list in the Codice de Roda, as
interpreted by German de Pamplona.

8. Ordono III, son of 7 by first wife, 950-956
9. Ordono IV, son of 6, 956-958, rival king with 10, expelled.
10. Sancho I, son of 7 by second wife, 956-966, assassinated.
11. Ramiro III, son of 10, 966-85 (he was an infant at succession - the
actual ruler was his regent, aunt Elvira, a nun), expelled.
12. Vermudo II, son of 8, (rebel) King of Galicia from 981, of Leon
985-999.
13. Alfonso V, son of 12, 999-1028.
14. Vermudo III, son of 13, 1028-1037.
15. Fernando I, husband of Sancha, sister of 14, 1037-1065.



ES also mentions Ramiro who put himself up as king of Leon and married
his brother Fruela II's widow Urraca. ES does not indicate that the two
brothers were married to the same woman.

This is a deduction of Salazar Acha.


But ES gives by Urraca (wife of Fruela II) that she was the daughter of
Abdallah Ibn Mohammad Wali of Tudela, Chief of the family Banu Qasi.

Urraca and Fruela II are shown to have had four children Ramiro, Eudo,
Portis and Uracca (sic). Uracca married before 969 Aznar Purcelis, who
died after 969 (I would hope so).
Is it known whether this couple has further descendants? It would give a
Muslim line into the Spain.

Fruela did marry Urraca, but as to his children, there has been numerous
attempts to trace from Fruela, most of them completely bogus, the rest
only partially bogus. I suspect that this list of children is not well
supported. The children that I know of being documented are: Alfonso,
son by an earlier wife, and Ordono and Ramiro, apparently sons of Urraca
(named as such in a reliable medieval account of the Banu Qasi). Ramiro
and Ordono led a rebellion during the reign of Ramiro II, and were
deprived of their land and their sight. Nothing more is known of them or
their descendants. The desire you have expressed for a muslim line has
led at least one author to speculate that Vermudo II was actually son of
Ordono IV, not Ordono III, and that Ordono IV was actually the son of
Fruela II, not Alfonso IV, thus making Vermudo grandson of Urraca.
Neither of these 'revisions' holds water.

taf


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