Latin Transcription

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paul bulkley

Latin Transcription

Legg inn av paul bulkley » 10 nov 2005 03:37:04

Dear Nat Taylor and Peter Meazey:

My observation that perhaps latin records transcribed
in France may differ a little from that in England is
simply based on the many words (Delisle) which I have
been unable to find in the dictionaries at my
disposal.

My comment does not question the accuracy of the texts
- rather it reflects my ignorance.

However I still ponder. For example if there were four
men as scribes employed in the 12th Century - a
Frenchman, a German, an Italian,and an Englishman -
and all instructed to write a similar Charter in their
own country.

Would the final documents be identical? Or would each
document possess certain national variations in word
usage, spelling, punctuation etc.

The answer to the question may explain my difficulty
with Delisle - his Charters were presumably written
in Normandy.

Sincerely Yours,

Paul Bulkley



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butlergrt

Re: Latin Transcription:Re.language d'oil,d'oc

Legg inn av butlergrt » 10 nov 2005 14:33:00

Good Morning Peter, Paul and Paul Bulkley,
What you have probably come across is a form of dialect of French called
Provencal, it is known in a broad sense as "Occitan" but relates mostly
to the provinces of 'provencal' and 'languedoc' and a few other areas.
"D'oc" was the language of the troubadours of the 1000 thru roughly the
1300's. It is a hybrdization of the what is called "old french" or
"d'oil". How this would relate, a prime example is, King Richard the
lionheart, he spoke French and Provencal but almost no English, and as
part of the areas he ruled(on the continent) and those of his extended
family spoke Provencal, the records written by the scribes would have been
in that dialect. While some of the writing would be understandable as
French, there would be words that have no connection which I surmise is
what you are finding. A modern example and one of my own, several decades
ago I had two friends, Ramon, who was born and raised in Brownsville,
Texas and spoke what is called Tex-Mex and another friend, Salvador de la
Rosa, who was born raised and educated in southern Mexico and spoke what
is called Castillian Spanish, 2/3 of the time they could speak to each
other, 1/3 of the time, I who spoke both forms had to act as interpreter,
as there were words that didn't jump the barrier and English was the
intermediary, that 1/3 time used to seem as tho one was speaking Chinese
and the other Arabic, I used to get quite a kick out of it, me, having to
intepret for two born and bred Hispanics, and they couldn't understand
each other, fancy that!!!
Anyway, if you have large University nearby with a good history and
language department, you should be able to fiind the resources you need to
have the words transcribed. Have a great day.
Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler

Gjest

Re: Latin transcription

Legg inn av Gjest » 11 nov 2005 10:35:34

Dear Emmet,
I'm afraid this only muddies the water. Paul's difficulty is not with
Provencal but with Latin charters transcribed by Delisle - and particularly in
Normandy. I was rather worried at first by his suggestion that the problem might be
due to the nationality of the transcriber but his subsequent note clears this
up. In fact he has put his finger on a genuine issue. Asking to what extent
continental and insular charters may vary in terminology is a perfectly good
question.
May I suggest that part of the answer is different customary law requiring a
specific vocabulary, another is latinisation of words from the local
vernacular. The conventions regarding contraction, punctuation and so forth may well
have varied from place to place, and time to time, though I very much doubt
whether this was on a "national" basis. The other problem is of course personal
and place-names which may require considerable local knowledge. Trying to make
sense of, for instance, a list of Templar possessions in Brittany, is a total
nightmare. Some of them have to be translated back into Old Breton before they
make any sense. And even then...
Best regards,
Peter Meazey (Dinan, Brittany)

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