John de Offord +1349

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John de Offord +1349

Legg inn av Gjest » 08 nov 2005 21:30:07

Ancestral to the later Pabenhams are the de Offords. Chris Phillips
has very generously provided me with copies of his notes on the
Pabenhams and their related lines, which are close to the top of my
"to-do" pile and on which I hope to post shortly (together with an
interesting and challenging Eylesford will from Michael Miller).

Meanwhile, herewith are some notes on the de Offords; Sir Lawrence
Pabenham (d 1399) was son of Sir Thomas Pabenham (d 1344) by a Miss de
Offord, sister of the following two brothers:

(1) John de Offord (c1290-1349); "presumably born at Offord,
Huntingdonshire; in 13332 had custody of lands there pending the
majority of the heir; fellow of Merton COllege, Oxford, 1315; MA; DCL;
Dean, Court of the Arches; diplomat; proctor at the papal Court,
Avignon, 1339-40; Keeper, Privy Seal, 1342-4, and of the Great Seal,
1342-3; Lord Chancellor from 26.10.1345 to death; Rector of Deepdale,
Norfolk, 1316; canon of St Paul's, 1327; prebendary of St Chad's,
Shrewsbury by 1330; canon of Lincoln, 1331; Archdeacon of Ely, 1335-44;
Dean of Lincoln, 1344; also canon of York, Wells, Salisbury and
Hereford; appointed to the see of Canterbury, 24.9.1348 but died at
Tottenham of the plague before consecration, 20.5.1349" [ODNB]

(2) Andrew de Offord (c1305-c1358); "DCL, Oxford; chancellor,
Worcester; canon of Salisbury, St Paul's and York; provost of Wells;
Archdeacon of Middlesex; rector of Over, Cambs; chancery clerk;
diplomat; co-keeper of the Great Seal, 1353; died at Avignon" (ODNB)

VCH Hunts, vol II, sub Offord Darcy and Offord Cluny, notes the
connection with John de Offord, and names other de Offordsm, but offers
no further relevant genealogical material.

MAR

MAR

Gjest

Re: John de Offord +1349

Legg inn av Gjest » 08 nov 2005 21:52:32

Additionally, VCH Hunts offers some clues about the earlier de Offords
and their apparent links with the de Hereford family (on whom I posted
recently) and the Daneys family.

Sub Offord Darcy [Vol II p 323 et seq]:

"Robert de Hofford [sic] held the advowson [no date given in text]; his
daughter Emma married William le Daneys (Curia Regis R i 340); they had
two daughters but in 1241 William le Daneys made a grant to John le
Daneys, probably his brother, of all his lands in Offord; they
subsequently passed to John's widow, Philippa; John and Philippa also
had two daughters, who died without issue. Brice le Daneys claimed as
son of William, son of William, son of Richard, brother of the said
John. William le Daneys, probably the father of Brice, claimed in 1261
against ROBERT DE HEREFORD and Richard Pauncefoot and Isabella his wife
[sic] - Robert de Hereford was probably the 3rd husband of Isabella,
daughter of William le Daneys, or possibly the husband of her daughter.
In 1279 Sir John de Offord and Isabella his wife, possibly formerly
the wife of Richard Pauncefoot, recorded. Conveyances dated 1306 by
Robert, son of ROGER DE HEREFORD, and Isabella widow of Robert de
Hereford - she married in 1315 Peter le Mareschall. John de Offord,
King's clerk, later had custody of the lands and leased the manor
before his death in 1349 to Laurence de Pabenham".

And at p 319 et seq, sub Offord Cluny:

"John de Offord and Isabel his wife, 1305 (Cal. Pat. Rolls 1301-7, p
313; she was apparently identical with Isabella late the wife of Robert
de Hereford - Cal. Close 1302-7, p 346)".

We know from elsewhere, eg VCH Hunts sub Paxton, VCH Beds sub
Wrestlingworth, that Robert de Hereford was of age by 1341, and dead by
1271, leaving a minor son, Roger.

It therefore seems that Robert de Hereford married Isabella, who
married secondly Sir John de Offord (ff 1279-1305) and possibly thirdly
Peter le Mareschall in 1315.

Given that the 1261 claim refers to "Robert de Hereford" and to
"Richard Pauncefoot and Isabella his wife", presumably indicating that
all three were then alive, it is difficult to say whether Robert de
Hereford married Isabella after Richard Pauncefoot's death, giving her
four husbands in all, or whether two Isabellas, one le Daneys and the
other her daughter, are to be postulated here, as suggested by VCH.
Perhaps we are to read this that William le Daney's daughter Isabella
married Richard Pauncefoot, and had a daughter Isalla married in turn
to Robert de Hereford, John de Offord and Peter le Mareschall.

I shall do some further digging.

MAR

Gjest

Re: John de Offord +1349

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 nov 2005 00:14:25

DNB offers the following in relation to John de Offord (d 1349):

"has been called a son of Robert de Ufford, 1st Earl of Suffolk; in
point of fact, it is extremely doubtful whether there was any
relationship whatsoever. John de Offord's own family no doubt belonged
to Offord in Huntingdonshire, where in 1275 [sic; cf "1375" in ODNB,
which is doubtless an error] John de Offord held the estate of Offord
Dameys [sic; probably Offord Daneys is intended, more usually known as
Offord Darcy]; of this estate the future Chancellor had custody in 1332
till the legitimate age of the heir; it is therefore probable that he
was a son of grandson of the earlier John de Offord, but the only
positive fact known as to his family is that he was a brother of Andrew
Offord... He was buried by night at Christ Church, Canterbury, 7 June
1349... William Dene says that at the time of his appointment to the
archbishopric he was weak and paralytic, and that he owed his
preferment to lavish bribery".

As noted, VCH Hunts only states that John de Offord had custody of
Offord Darcy, and does not detail the identity or relationship between
the elder John de Offord and the minor heir of 1332.

MAR

Gjest

Re: John de Offord +1349

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 nov 2005 00:29:35

Stirnet, which cites CP and Burke's Extinct Peerage, makes John de
Offord a brother of Robert de Ufford, Earl of Suffolk. However,
according to Dugdale's Baronage (which does not make such a link) the
Earl of Suffolk's paternal grandfather, born a member of the Peyton
family, took the surname of de Ufford after the place of that name in
Suffolk - i.e. not after Offord in Hunts.

Additionally, Stirnet gives Lord Suffolk a younger son, John de Ufford,
a prebendary of Salisbury & Lincoln, said to have lived c1342-1375.

Gjest

Re: John de Offord +1349

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 nov 2005 00:41:28

Looking at Brian Timms's site, he gives the following arms:

(Charles's Roll): John de Ufford: sable, a cross indented or, in chief
two scallops argent

(St George's Roll): John de Ufford ['Joan de Offord']: azure, on a
cross indented or five escallops gules

(Both appear to be variants of the Peyton arms).

According to Burke's Armoury, the Earls of Suffolk bore sable, a cross
engrailed or - i.e.Peyton - although four variants are given.

I presume all the foregoing relate to the Ufford formerly Peyton
family.

Fast. Eccl. states that John de Ufford was Archdeacon of Suffolk in
1367-1368 - this could be the Earl's son.

Additionally, according to Crockford's Clerical Directory, one John de
Ufford was Bishop of Annadown from 1283-1308, apparently the first
Anglo-Irishman to hold this See. Perhaps he was a connection of the
Earl's grandfather, who was Lord Justice of Ireland.

This is exclusive in nature only, therefore, and only tells us who was
not of the Chancellor's kin.

MAR

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: John de Offord +1349

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 13 nov 2005 02:00:49

In message of 13 Nov, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 11/12/05 3:30:31 PM Pacific Standard Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

Stirnet, which cites CP and Burke's Extinct Peerage, makes John de
Offord a brother of Robert de Ufford, Earl of Suffolk. However,
according to Dugdale's Baronage

Are you sure Stirnet is citing CP for this specific connection?
My one gripe with Stirnet is that in the majority of cases, they do not
assign each fact to a citation but merely lump their citations at the
end of what could be pages of connections and facts. Will Johnson

Sounds like trained genalogists?

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Gjest

Re: John de Offord +1349

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 nov 2005 02:13:41

In a message dated 11/12/05 3:30:31 PM Pacific Standard Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

<< Stirnet, which cites CP and Burke's Extinct Peerage, makes John de
Offord a brother of Robert de Ufford, Earl of Suffolk. However,
according to Dugdale's Baronage >>

Are you sure Stirnet is citing CP for this specific connection?
My one gripe with Stirnet is that in the majority of cases, they do not
assign each fact to a citation but merely lump their citations at the end of what
could be pages of connections and facts.
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: John de Offord +1349

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 nov 2005 09:39:32

WJhonson@aol.com schrieb:

mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

Stirnet, which cites CP and Burke's Extinct Peerage, makes John de
Offord a brother of Robert de Ufford, Earl of Suffolk.

Are you sure Stirnet is citing CP for this specific connection?
My one gripe with Stirnet is that in the majority of cases, they do not
assign each fact to a citation but merely lump their citations at the end of what
could be pages of connections and facts.
Will Johnson

No, as noted Stirnet cites both CP and BEP for its Ufford half-page.
As you say, this indicates that their stemma in toto came from the two
sources referred to, but does not identify which single 'facts' came
from which source.

Because they do not normally cite more than three or four sources, I
find it's not usually too difficult to go to those sources myself,
using Stirnet as a guide or quick reference.

MAR

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