Parentage of Margaret Zouche, wife of Rhys ap Griffith and W
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Douglas Richardson
Parentage of Margaret Zouche, wife of Rhys ap Griffith and W
Dear Newsgroup ~
Since we're currently discussing the Griffith family of Wichnor,
Staffordshirdshire and Burton Agnes, Yorkshire, I thought I'd bring up
another problem in the Griffith family tree, namely the the parentage
of Margaret Zouche, wife successively of Sir Rhys ap Griffith (died 25
May 1380) and William Walsall (died 1414).
The ancient Griffith pedigree published in Misc. Gen. et Heraldica, 1
(1868): 64 states that Margaret was the daughter of "N. Zouch":
"A° 4 R. 2. Obitus secundui Resi Griffith militis filij et heredis
predicti Resi et Johannae qui habuit exitum com Margareta filia N.
Zouch Thomam Grifith in festo Sti Augustini Anglorum ep'I A° 1380 et
sepultus est apud Polesworth predicta." END OF QUOTE.
Elsewhere, the historian Stebbing Shaw states without reference that
Margaret, wife of Sir Rhys ap Griffith, was "daughter of Nicholas
Zouch, of Codnor" [Reference: Stebbing Shaw, Hist. & Antiquitires of
Staffordshiore, 1 (1798): 122]. This identification seems misplaced,
as the Zouches of Codnor came to be at that locality at a later time
period.
Regardless, Shaw does show that Margaret, widow of Rhys ap Griffith,
used a seal on an indenture dated 1419-20 which shows Griffith and
Somerville impaled with the arms of Zouche: "Gules 12 bezants, a canton
Ermine," which last coat he says "is still remaining, in painted glass,
in Whichnor church."
The same seal was also attached to an earlier indenture dated 1 April
1414 issued by Margaret and her 2nd husband, William Walshale, in favor
of her son, Thomas Zouche, Esq.
So, from the arms on her seal and in the window at Wichnor, it would
appear that Margaret was indeed a Zouche, presumably a member of the
Zouche family of Harringworth, Northamptonshire which family's coat of
arms included a canton ermine. I assume the canton ermine was added to
the Zouche arms to denote the Zouche family's descent from the earlier
Dukes/Counts of Brittany.
I haven't found any further record which would indicate Margaret's
exact placement in the Zouche family of Harringworth, except for one
lawsuit dated Trinity term 1430, whereby Margaret (Zouche) Griffith's
executor, William la Zouche, Knt., sued William de Whichenore, yeoman,
to render a reasonable account for the time he was receiver of the
money of Margaret [Reference: Colls. Hist. Staffordshire 17 (1896):
129]. I assume the executor, Sir William la Zouche, was a near
relative of Margaret Zouche's. Possibly he is the same person as Sir
William la Zouche, 5th Lord Zouche of Harringworth (born c. 1402, died
1462). Sir William la Zouche's younger brother, John la Zouche, is
the founder of the Zouche family of Codnor, Derbyshire.
If anyone has additional particulars to add to this matter, I'd
appreciate it greatly if they would post what information they have
here on the newsgroup. Perhaps someone can tell us the location of
Margaret (Zouche) (Griffith) Walsall's will. If so, the will would
probably tell us the nature of the kinship between Margaret and her
executor, Sir William la Zouche.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Since we're currently discussing the Griffith family of Wichnor,
Staffordshirdshire and Burton Agnes, Yorkshire, I thought I'd bring up
another problem in the Griffith family tree, namely the the parentage
of Margaret Zouche, wife successively of Sir Rhys ap Griffith (died 25
May 1380) and William Walsall (died 1414).
The ancient Griffith pedigree published in Misc. Gen. et Heraldica, 1
(1868): 64 states that Margaret was the daughter of "N. Zouch":
"A° 4 R. 2. Obitus secundui Resi Griffith militis filij et heredis
predicti Resi et Johannae qui habuit exitum com Margareta filia N.
Zouch Thomam Grifith in festo Sti Augustini Anglorum ep'I A° 1380 et
sepultus est apud Polesworth predicta." END OF QUOTE.
Elsewhere, the historian Stebbing Shaw states without reference that
Margaret, wife of Sir Rhys ap Griffith, was "daughter of Nicholas
Zouch, of Codnor" [Reference: Stebbing Shaw, Hist. & Antiquitires of
Staffordshiore, 1 (1798): 122]. This identification seems misplaced,
as the Zouches of Codnor came to be at that locality at a later time
period.
Regardless, Shaw does show that Margaret, widow of Rhys ap Griffith,
used a seal on an indenture dated 1419-20 which shows Griffith and
Somerville impaled with the arms of Zouche: "Gules 12 bezants, a canton
Ermine," which last coat he says "is still remaining, in painted glass,
in Whichnor church."
The same seal was also attached to an earlier indenture dated 1 April
1414 issued by Margaret and her 2nd husband, William Walshale, in favor
of her son, Thomas Zouche, Esq.
So, from the arms on her seal and in the window at Wichnor, it would
appear that Margaret was indeed a Zouche, presumably a member of the
Zouche family of Harringworth, Northamptonshire which family's coat of
arms included a canton ermine. I assume the canton ermine was added to
the Zouche arms to denote the Zouche family's descent from the earlier
Dukes/Counts of Brittany.
I haven't found any further record which would indicate Margaret's
exact placement in the Zouche family of Harringworth, except for one
lawsuit dated Trinity term 1430, whereby Margaret (Zouche) Griffith's
executor, William la Zouche, Knt., sued William de Whichenore, yeoman,
to render a reasonable account for the time he was receiver of the
money of Margaret [Reference: Colls. Hist. Staffordshire 17 (1896):
129]. I assume the executor, Sir William la Zouche, was a near
relative of Margaret Zouche's. Possibly he is the same person as Sir
William la Zouche, 5th Lord Zouche of Harringworth (born c. 1402, died
1462). Sir William la Zouche's younger brother, John la Zouche, is
the founder of the Zouche family of Codnor, Derbyshire.
If anyone has additional particulars to add to this matter, I'd
appreciate it greatly if they would post what information they have
here on the newsgroup. Perhaps someone can tell us the location of
Margaret (Zouche) (Griffith) Walsall's will. If so, the will would
probably tell us the nature of the kinship between Margaret and her
executor, Sir William la Zouche.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Parentage of Margaret Zouche, wife of Rhys ap Griffith a
Dear Newsgroup ~
Since we're currently discussing the Griffith family of Wichnor,
Staffordshirdshire and Burton Agnes, Yorkshire, I thought I'd bring up
another problem in the Griffith family tree, namely the the parentage
of Margaret Zouche, wife successively of Sir Rhys ap Griffith (died 25
May 1380) and William Walsall (died 1414).
The ancient Griffith pedigree published in Misc. Gen. et Heraldica, 1
(1868): 64 states that Margaret was the daughter of "N. Zouch":
"A° 4 R. 2. Obitus secundui Resi Griffith militis filij et heredis
predicti Resi et Johannae qui habuit exitum com Margareta filia N.
Zouch Thomam Grifith in festo Sti Augustini Anglorum ep'I A° 1380 et
sepultus est apud Polesworth predicta." END OF QUOTE.
Elsewhere, the historian Stebbing Shaw states without reference that
Margaret, wife of Sir Rhys ap Griffith, was "daughter of Nicholas
Zouch, of Codnor" [Reference: Stebbing Shaw, Hist. & Antiquitires of
Staffordshiore, 1 (1798): 122]. This identification seems misplaced,
as the Zouches of Codnor came to be at that locality at a later time
period.
Regardless, Shaw does show that Margaret, widow of Rhys ap Griffith,
used a seal on an indenture dated 1419-20 which shows Griffith and
Somerville impaled with the arms of Zouche: "Gules 12 bezants, a canton
Ermine," which last coat he says "is still remaining, in painted glass,
in Whichnor church."
The same seal was also attached to an earlier indenture dated 1 April
1414 issued by Margaret and her 2nd husband, William Walshale, in favor
of her son, Thomas Griffith, Esq.
So, from the arms on her seal and in the window at Wichnor, it would
appear that Margaret was indeed a Zouche, presumably a member of the
Zouche family of Harringworth, Northamptonshire which family's coat of
arms included a canton ermine. I assume the canton ermine was added to
the Zouche arms to denote the Zouche family's descent from the earlier
Dukes/Counts of Brittany.
I haven't found any further record which would indicate Margaret's
exact placement in the Zouche family of Harringworth, except for one
lawsuit dated Trinity term 1430, whereby Margaret (Zouche) Griffith's
executor, William la Zouche, Knt., sued William de Whichenore, yeoman,
to render a reasonable account for the time he was receiver of the
money of Margaret [Reference: Colls. Hist. Staffordshire 17 (1896):
129]. I assume the executor, Sir William la Zouche, was a near
relative of Margaret Zouche's. Possibly he is the same person as Sir
William la Zouche, 5th Lord Zouche of Harringworth (born c. 1402, died
1462). Sir William la Zouche's younger brother, John la Zouche, is
the founder of the Zouche family of Codnor, Derbyshire.
If anyone has additional particulars to add to this matter, I'd
appreciate it greatly if they would post what information they have
here on the newsgroup. Perhaps someone can tell us the location of
Margaret (Zouche) (Griffith) Walsall's will. If so, the will would
probably tell us the nature of the kinship between Margaret and her
executor, Sir William la Zouche.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Since we're currently discussing the Griffith family of Wichnor,
Staffordshirdshire and Burton Agnes, Yorkshire, I thought I'd bring up
another problem in the Griffith family tree, namely the the parentage
of Margaret Zouche, wife successively of Sir Rhys ap Griffith (died 25
May 1380) and William Walsall (died 1414).
The ancient Griffith pedigree published in Misc. Gen. et Heraldica, 1
(1868): 64 states that Margaret was the daughter of "N. Zouch":
"A° 4 R. 2. Obitus secundui Resi Griffith militis filij et heredis
predicti Resi et Johannae qui habuit exitum com Margareta filia N.
Zouch Thomam Grifith in festo Sti Augustini Anglorum ep'I A° 1380 et
sepultus est apud Polesworth predicta." END OF QUOTE.
Elsewhere, the historian Stebbing Shaw states without reference that
Margaret, wife of Sir Rhys ap Griffith, was "daughter of Nicholas
Zouch, of Codnor" [Reference: Stebbing Shaw, Hist. & Antiquitires of
Staffordshiore, 1 (1798): 122]. This identification seems misplaced,
as the Zouches of Codnor came to be at that locality at a later time
period.
Regardless, Shaw does show that Margaret, widow of Rhys ap Griffith,
used a seal on an indenture dated 1419-20 which shows Griffith and
Somerville impaled with the arms of Zouche: "Gules 12 bezants, a canton
Ermine," which last coat he says "is still remaining, in painted glass,
in Whichnor church."
The same seal was also attached to an earlier indenture dated 1 April
1414 issued by Margaret and her 2nd husband, William Walshale, in favor
of her son, Thomas Griffith, Esq.
So, from the arms on her seal and in the window at Wichnor, it would
appear that Margaret was indeed a Zouche, presumably a member of the
Zouche family of Harringworth, Northamptonshire which family's coat of
arms included a canton ermine. I assume the canton ermine was added to
the Zouche arms to denote the Zouche family's descent from the earlier
Dukes/Counts of Brittany.
I haven't found any further record which would indicate Margaret's
exact placement in the Zouche family of Harringworth, except for one
lawsuit dated Trinity term 1430, whereby Margaret (Zouche) Griffith's
executor, William la Zouche, Knt., sued William de Whichenore, yeoman,
to render a reasonable account for the time he was receiver of the
money of Margaret [Reference: Colls. Hist. Staffordshire 17 (1896):
129]. I assume the executor, Sir William la Zouche, was a near
relative of Margaret Zouche's. Possibly he is the same person as Sir
William la Zouche, 5th Lord Zouche of Harringworth (born c. 1402, died
1462). Sir William la Zouche's younger brother, John la Zouche, is
the founder of the Zouche family of Codnor, Derbyshire.
If anyone has additional particulars to add to this matter, I'd
appreciate it greatly if they would post what information they have
here on the newsgroup. Perhaps someone can tell us the location of
Margaret (Zouche) (Griffith) Walsall's will. If so, the will would
probably tell us the nature of the kinship between Margaret and her
executor, Sir William la Zouche.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
-
Gjest
Re: Parentage of Margaret Zouche, wife of Rhys ap Griffith a
Douglas Richardson schrieb:
Douglas
You may already know this, but I believe it was sometimes the custom to
use "N" where a name was not known; perhaps this is the case here, and
the connection to Nicholas was produced consequently in the belief that
her father's Christian name began with that letter, whereas in fact it
was unknown to the original author.
Regards
Michael
Dear Newsgroup ~
Since we're currently discussing the Griffith family of Wichnor,
Staffordshirdshire and Burton Agnes, Yorkshire, I thought I'd bring up
another problem in the Griffith family tree, namely the the parentage
of Margaret Zouche, wife successively of Sir Rhys ap Griffith (died 25
May 1380) and William Walsall (died 1414).
The ancient Griffith pedigree published in Misc. Gen. et Heraldica, 1
(1868): 64 states that Margaret was the daughter of "N. Zouch":
Douglas
You may already know this, but I believe it was sometimes the custom to
use "N" where a name was not known; perhaps this is the case here, and
the connection to Nicholas was produced consequently in the belief that
her father's Christian name began with that letter, whereas in fact it
was unknown to the original author.
Regards
Michael
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Parentage of Margaret Zouche, wife of Rhys ap Griffith a
Dear Michael ~
Thank you for your good post.
Yes, I'm aware of the practice to designate an individual whose given
name is not known as "N." If so, it is possible that the maker of the
Griffith pedigree published in Misc. Gen. et Heraldica did not know the
name of Margaret Zouche's father. Rather than leave his name blank,
he designated him as "N. Zouch."
If so, it may have been a guess on Shaw's part that Margaret Zouche's
father was "Nicholas Zouche." Whatever the case, Margaret Zouche's
father almost certainly did not reside at Codnor, Derbyshire, as Shaw
alleged.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
Thank you for your good post.
Yes, I'm aware of the practice to designate an individual whose given
name is not known as "N." If so, it is possible that the maker of the
Griffith pedigree published in Misc. Gen. et Heraldica did not know the
name of Margaret Zouche's father. Rather than leave his name blank,
he designated him as "N. Zouch."
If so, it may have been a guess on Shaw's part that Margaret Zouche's
father was "Nicholas Zouche." Whatever the case, Margaret Zouche's
father almost certainly did not reside at Codnor, Derbyshire, as Shaw
alleged.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
Douglas Richardson schrieb:
Dear Newsgroup ~
Since we're currently discussing the Griffith family of Wichnor,
Staffordshirdshire and Burton Agnes, Yorkshire, I thought I'd bring up
another problem in the Griffith family tree, namely the the parentage
of Margaret Zouche, wife successively of Sir Rhys ap Griffith (died 25
May 1380) and William Walsall (died 1414).
The ancient Griffith pedigree published in Misc. Gen. et Heraldica, 1
(1868): 64 states that Margaret was the daughter of "N. Zouch":
Douglas
You may already know this, but I believe it was sometimes the custom to
use "N" where a name was not known; perhaps this is the case here, and
the connection to Nicholas was produced consequently in the belief that
her father's Christian name began with that letter, whereas in fact it
was unknown to the original author.
Regards
Michael
-
Gjest
Re: Parentage of Margaret Zouche, wife of Rhys ap Griffith a
William Walsall (d1414) has an entry in HoP, which repeats the usual
identification with a small qualification- ie, dau of ?Nicholas Zouche
of Codnor, Derbs. So it doesn't look as though they found any
illuminating evidence while compiling his biog., unfortunately.
identification with a small qualification- ie, dau of ?Nicholas Zouche
of Codnor, Derbs. So it doesn't look as though they found any
illuminating evidence while compiling his biog., unfortunately.
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Parentage of Margaret Zouche, wife of Rhys ap Griffith a
Dear Michael ~
I've seen the biography of William Walsall (died 1414) in Roskell's
House of Parliament. Roskell was evidently unaware as to when
Walsall's wife, Margaret Zouche, died, or that Sir William la Zouche
was her executor. He says only the following:
"[William Walsall} died ... 1414, and was survived by his widow,
Margaret, for the next seven years if not longer."
Roskell indicates in passing that William Walsall and his wife,
Margaret, were involved in various records with John, Lord Neville; Sir
Nicholas Stafford; John Bromley; and Robert Braybrooke, Bishop of
London. I'm not aware that any of these people had any connection to
the Zouche family.
Roskell appears to have overlooked the various lawsuits involving
William Walsall's widow, Margaret. For interest's sake, I've listed
the lawsuits below. The last of the lawsuits shows Margaret (Zouche)
(Griffith) Walsall was living as late as Hillary term, 1430:
1. In Hillary term, 1416 his widow, Margaret, sued Richard Myners,
Esq., of Blakenhale for treading down and consuming her corn and grass
with his cattle to the value of 100s. at Blakenhale.
2. In Trinity term 1416 Thomas Gyfhard sued her for a debt of 4 marks.
She failed to appear, and the Sheriff was ordered to attach her.
3. In Trinity term 1419 she sued Nicholas Hubert, yeoman, of Alrewas,
Staffordshire, for breaking into her close at Wichnor, and cutting down
her trees to the value of 100s.
4. In Trinity term 1425 she sued Robert Ryall, souter, of Barton under
Nedewode for entering her free warren at Wichnor and taking hares,
rabbits, and pheasants.
5. In Trinity term 1428 she sued Robert Rialle, corveser, of Barton
under Nedewode and others for entering her free warren at Tunstall and
Tatenhill, and cutting down her trees and underwood, and chasing and
taking hares and rabbits, pheasants, and partridges.
6. In Hillary term 1430 she sued Roger Chare, butcher, of Barton under
Nedewode and another for breaking into her close and houses at Wichnor.
7. The same term she sued William Chambre, of Fald, for taking by force
her native, Robert Baker, from Tunstall, and goods and chattels worth
100s., and for entering her free warren at Tunstall, and taking hares
and rabbits, pheasants and partridges [References: Colls. Hist.
Staffordshire 17 (1896): 54, 59, 78, 107, 120, 126-127].
As I stated in my earlier post, Margaret (Zouche) (Griffith) Walsall
died shortly before Trinity term 1430, when her executor, William la
Zouche, Knt., sued William de Whichenore, yeoman, to render a
reasonable account for the time he was receiver of the money of
Margaret [Reference: Colls. Hist. Staffordshire 17 (1896): 129].
Other than the fact that Sir William la Zouche was the executor of her
will, none of this information seems to provide a clue to Margaret's
parentage. If Margaret's will can be located, however, it might well
provide the nature of her kinship to Sir William la Zouche. This is
sort of like chasing a rabbit or a hare. I guess times haven't
changed.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
I've seen the biography of William Walsall (died 1414) in Roskell's
House of Parliament. Roskell was evidently unaware as to when
Walsall's wife, Margaret Zouche, died, or that Sir William la Zouche
was her executor. He says only the following:
"[William Walsall} died ... 1414, and was survived by his widow,
Margaret, for the next seven years if not longer."
Roskell indicates in passing that William Walsall and his wife,
Margaret, were involved in various records with John, Lord Neville; Sir
Nicholas Stafford; John Bromley; and Robert Braybrooke, Bishop of
London. I'm not aware that any of these people had any connection to
the Zouche family.
Roskell appears to have overlooked the various lawsuits involving
William Walsall's widow, Margaret. For interest's sake, I've listed
the lawsuits below. The last of the lawsuits shows Margaret (Zouche)
(Griffith) Walsall was living as late as Hillary term, 1430:
1. In Hillary term, 1416 his widow, Margaret, sued Richard Myners,
Esq., of Blakenhale for treading down and consuming her corn and grass
with his cattle to the value of 100s. at Blakenhale.
2. In Trinity term 1416 Thomas Gyfhard sued her for a debt of 4 marks.
She failed to appear, and the Sheriff was ordered to attach her.
3. In Trinity term 1419 she sued Nicholas Hubert, yeoman, of Alrewas,
Staffordshire, for breaking into her close at Wichnor, and cutting down
her trees to the value of 100s.
4. In Trinity term 1425 she sued Robert Ryall, souter, of Barton under
Nedewode for entering her free warren at Wichnor and taking hares,
rabbits, and pheasants.
5. In Trinity term 1428 she sued Robert Rialle, corveser, of Barton
under Nedewode and others for entering her free warren at Tunstall and
Tatenhill, and cutting down her trees and underwood, and chasing and
taking hares and rabbits, pheasants, and partridges.
6. In Hillary term 1430 she sued Roger Chare, butcher, of Barton under
Nedewode and another for breaking into her close and houses at Wichnor.
7. The same term she sued William Chambre, of Fald, for taking by force
her native, Robert Baker, from Tunstall, and goods and chattels worth
100s., and for entering her free warren at Tunstall, and taking hares
and rabbits, pheasants and partridges [References: Colls. Hist.
Staffordshire 17 (1896): 54, 59, 78, 107, 120, 126-127].
As I stated in my earlier post, Margaret (Zouche) (Griffith) Walsall
died shortly before Trinity term 1430, when her executor, William la
Zouche, Knt., sued William de Whichenore, yeoman, to render a
reasonable account for the time he was receiver of the money of
Margaret [Reference: Colls. Hist. Staffordshire 17 (1896): 129].
Other than the fact that Sir William la Zouche was the executor of her
will, none of this information seems to provide a clue to Margaret's
parentage. If Margaret's will can be located, however, it might well
provide the nature of her kinship to Sir William la Zouche. This is
sort of like chasing a rabbit or a hare. I guess times haven't
changed.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
William Walsall (d1414) has an entry in HoP, which repeats the usual
identification with a small qualification- ie, dau of ?Nicholas Zouche
of Codnor, Derbs. So it doesn't look as though they found any
illuminating evidence while compiling his biog., unfortunately.
-
Gjest
Re: Parentage of Margaret Zouche, wife of Rhys ap Griffith a
A2A has a relevant "article" in Papers of the Wickham-boynton Family
(incorporating Griffith) of Burton Agnes Catalogue Ref. DDWB, DDWB(2), DWB.
In the administrative history, which is some sort of summary of what the
entire collection contains, they mention the marriage of "Joan de Sommerville to
Rees ap Griffith in 1355"
Can anyone confirm this date to be accurate or at least reasonable?
Thanks
Will Johnson
(incorporating Griffith) of Burton Agnes Catalogue Ref. DDWB, DDWB(2), DWB.
In the administrative history, which is some sort of summary of what the
entire collection contains, they mention the marriage of "Joan de Sommerville to
Rees ap Griffith in 1355"
Can anyone confirm this date to be accurate or at least reasonable?
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Parentage of Margaret Zouche, wife of Rhys ap Griffith a
Dear Will ~
Sir Rhys ap Griffith and his wife, Joan de Somerville, were married
about 12 February 1325 (date of settlement). Their son and heir, Rhys
ap Griffith, Jr., was born about 25 December 1325.
It was the younger Rhys ap Griffith, Knt., who married as his 2nd wife,
Margaret Zouche. They had two sons, Thomas (born about 1376) and John.
By a previous marriage to Isabel Stackpole, he had one daughter, Joan
(wife of Richard Vernon, Knt).
The two marriages of Rhys ap Griffith the younger seem to be an earlier
version of Walter Griffith's later marriages to Joan Neville and Agnes
Constable. Aging knight without sons marries a much younger second
wife.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
Sir Rhys ap Griffith and his wife, Joan de Somerville, were married
about 12 February 1325 (date of settlement). Their son and heir, Rhys
ap Griffith, Jr., was born about 25 December 1325.
It was the younger Rhys ap Griffith, Knt., who married as his 2nd wife,
Margaret Zouche. They had two sons, Thomas (born about 1376) and John.
By a previous marriage to Isabel Stackpole, he had one daughter, Joan
(wife of Richard Vernon, Knt).
The two marriages of Rhys ap Griffith the younger seem to be an earlier
version of Walter Griffith's later marriages to Joan Neville and Agnes
Constable. Aging knight without sons marries a much younger second
wife.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
A2A has a relevant "article" in Papers of the Wickham-boynton Family
(incorporating Griffith) of Burton Agnes Catalogue Ref. DDWB, DDWB(2), DWB.
In the administrative history, which is some sort of summary of what the
entire collection contains, they mention the marriage of "Joan de Sommerville to
Rees ap Griffith in 1355"
Can anyone confirm this date to be accurate or at least reasonable?
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Parentage of Margaret Zouche, wife of Rhys ap Griffith a
In a message dated 11/8/05 3:14:54 PM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<< Aging knight without sons marries a much younger second wife. >>
Without parentage or any other indications, do we really know that Margaret
le Zouche was "much younger" ?
Will Johnson
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<< Aging knight without sons marries a much younger second wife. >>
Without parentage or any other indications, do we really know that Margaret
le Zouche was "much younger" ?
Will Johnson
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Parentage of Margaret Zouche, wife of Rhys ap Griffith a
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
Sir Rhys ap Griffith was born in 1325 and died in 1380, aged almost 55.
His widow, Margaret Zouche, remarried after his death probably by 1385
and had another child. Clearly Margaret was much younger, probably by
15 years or more.
DR
In a message dated 11/8/05 3:14:54 PM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
Aging knight without sons marries a much younger second wife.
Without parentage or any other indications, do we really know that Margaret
le Zouche was "much younger" ?
Will Johnson
Sir Rhys ap Griffith was born in 1325 and died in 1380, aged almost 55.
His widow, Margaret Zouche, remarried after his death probably by 1385
and had another child. Clearly Margaret was much younger, probably by
15 years or more.
DR
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Parentage of Margaret Zouche, wife of Rhys ap Griffith a
I might also point out that Margaret Zouche survived Sir Rhys ap
Griffith by some 50 years. And, Rhys was 55 when he died.
DR
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Griffith by some 50 years. And, Rhys was 55 when he died.
DR
Douglas Richardson wrote:
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 11/8/05 3:14:54 PM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
Aging knight without sons marries a much younger second wife.
Without parentage or any other indications, do we really know that Margaret
le Zouche was "much younger" ?
Will Johnson
Sir Rhys ap Griffith was born in 1325 and died in 1380, aged almost 55.
His widow, Margaret Zouche, remarried after his death probably by 1385
and had another child. Clearly Margaret was much younger, probably by
15 years or more.
DR
-
John Higgins
Re: Parentage of Margaret Zouche, wife of Rhys ap Griffith a
The possibility [or likelihood?] that Margaret Zouche was of the family of
Zouche of Harringworth rather than Zouche of Codnor was raised in an SGM
post of July 1998 by Paul Reed, who cited Stebbing Shaw as below and also
mentioned the 1414 indenture cited below. I don't believe he was able to
definitively state who Margaret's parents were - but this was not actually
the primary focus of his note.
Here's the pertinent piece of his note:
Under the account of Griffith, Shaw (p. 122) shows that the younger Rhys
married Margaret Zouche. His arms were quarterly Griffith and Somerville,
indicating a heraldic match in previous generations (his parents) impaling
those of Zouche of Harringworth, indicating his wife's origins. He cites
another indenture dated 1 April 2 Hen. V by which Margaret and her second
husband William Walsall/Whaleshale leave the remainder of their jointure to
Thomas Griffith, then to his brother John, then to "lady Joan Vernon, sister
of the aforesaid Thomas." So Joan, wife of Sir Richard de Vernon was
daughter of Rhys ap Gruffydd/Griffith, as was Thomas and John.
[end of quote]
It's possible that Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies, in its Griffith pedigree,
may have something to add here - but I don't have access to Bartrum...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: Parentage of Margaret Zouche, wife of Rhys ap Griffith and
William Walsall
Zouche of Harringworth rather than Zouche of Codnor was raised in an SGM
post of July 1998 by Paul Reed, who cited Stebbing Shaw as below and also
mentioned the 1414 indenture cited below. I don't believe he was able to
definitively state who Margaret's parents were - but this was not actually
the primary focus of his note.
Here's the pertinent piece of his note:
Under the account of Griffith, Shaw (p. 122) shows that the younger Rhys
married Margaret Zouche. His arms were quarterly Griffith and Somerville,
indicating a heraldic match in previous generations (his parents) impaling
those of Zouche of Harringworth, indicating his wife's origins. He cites
another indenture dated 1 April 2 Hen. V by which Margaret and her second
husband William Walsall/Whaleshale leave the remainder of their jointure to
Thomas Griffith, then to his brother John, then to "lady Joan Vernon, sister
of the aforesaid Thomas." So Joan, wife of Sir Richard de Vernon was
daughter of Rhys ap Gruffydd/Griffith, as was Thomas and John.
[end of quote]
It's possible that Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies, in its Griffith pedigree,
may have something to add here - but I don't have access to Bartrum...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: Parentage of Margaret Zouche, wife of Rhys ap Griffith and
William Walsall
Dear Newsgroup ~
Since we're currently discussing the Griffith family of Wichnor,
Staffordshirdshire and Burton Agnes, Yorkshire, I thought I'd bring up
another problem in the Griffith family tree, namely the the parentage
of Margaret Zouche, wife successively of Sir Rhys ap Griffith (died 25
May 1380) and William Walsall (died 1414).
The ancient Griffith pedigree published in Misc. Gen. et Heraldica, 1
(1868): 64 states that Margaret was the daughter of "N. Zouch":
"A° 4 R. 2. Obitus secundui Resi Griffith militis filij et heredis
predicti Resi et Johannae qui habuit exitum com Margareta filia N.
Zouch Thomam Grifith in festo Sti Augustini Anglorum ep'I A° 1380 et
sepultus est apud Polesworth predicta." END OF QUOTE.
Elsewhere, the historian Stebbing Shaw states without reference that
Margaret, wife of Sir Rhys ap Griffith, was "daughter of Nicholas
Zouch, of Codnor" [Reference: Stebbing Shaw, Hist. & Antiquitires of
Staffordshiore, 1 (1798): 122]. This identification seems misplaced,
as the Zouches of Codnor came to be at that locality at a later time
period.
Regardless, Shaw does show that Margaret, widow of Rhys ap Griffith,
used a seal on an indenture dated 1419-20 which shows Griffith and
Somerville impaled with the arms of Zouche: "Gules 12 bezants, a canton
Ermine," which last coat he says "is still remaining, in painted glass,
in Whichnor church."
The same seal was also attached to an earlier indenture dated 1 April
1414 issued by Margaret and her 2nd husband, William Walshale, in favor
of her son, Thomas Griffith, Esq.
So, from the arms on her seal and in the window at Wichnor, it would
appear that Margaret was indeed a Zouche, presumably a member of the
Zouche family of Harringworth, Northamptonshire which family's coat of
arms included a canton ermine. I assume the canton ermine was added to
the Zouche arms to denote the Zouche family's descent from the earlier
Dukes/Counts of Brittany.
I haven't found any further record which would indicate Margaret's
exact placement in the Zouche family of Harringworth, except for one
lawsuit dated Trinity term 1430, whereby Margaret (Zouche) Griffith's
executor, William la Zouche, Knt., sued William de Whichenore, yeoman,
to render a reasonable account for the time he was receiver of the
money of Margaret [Reference: Colls. Hist. Staffordshire 17 (1896):
129]. I assume the executor, Sir William la Zouche, was a near
relative of Margaret Zouche's. Possibly he is the same person as Sir
William la Zouche, 5th Lord Zouche of Harringworth (born c. 1402, died
1462). Sir William la Zouche's younger brother, John la Zouche, is
the founder of the Zouche family of Codnor, Derbyshire.
If anyone has additional particulars to add to this matter, I'd
appreciate it greatly if they would post what information they have
here on the newsgroup. Perhaps someone can tell us the location of
Margaret (Zouche) (Griffith) Walsall's will. If so, the will would
probably tell us the nature of the kinship between Margaret and her
executor, Sir William la Zouche.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
-
Leo
Re: Parentage of Margaret Zouche, wife of Rhys ap Griffith a
Richardson uses the word _probably_ twice, indicating it is only guess work.
Why would Margaret be _probably 15 years younger_? Why not 14 or 16?
Speculation and guess work often help finding answers, but are these
speculations leading us to find any facts?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: Parentage of Margaret Zouche, wife of Rhys ap Griffith and
William Walsall
Why would Margaret be _probably 15 years younger_? Why not 14 or 16?
Speculation and guess work often help finding answers, but are these
speculations leading us to find any facts?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: Parentage of Margaret Zouche, wife of Rhys ap Griffith and
William Walsall
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 11/8/05 3:14:54 PM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
Aging knight without sons marries a much younger second wife.
Without parentage or any other indications, do we really know that
Margaret
le Zouche was "much younger" ?
Will Johnson
Sir Rhys ap Griffith was born in 1325 and died in 1380, aged almost 55.
His widow, Margaret Zouche, remarried after his death probably by 1385
and had another child. Clearly Margaret was much younger, probably by
15 years or more.
DR
-
Gjest
Re: Parentage of Margaret Zouche, wife of Rhys ap Griffith a
John Higgins wrote:
It's not great- it gives:
Sir Rhys Hen [ie elder] ap Gruffudd, sheriff of Carmarthenshire 1322,
d.1356= (a)Joan dau. Sir Philip Somerville of Wichnor, Staffs (b)Isabel
dau. Sir Richard Stackpole (see Turberville 1)
by (b): Sir Rhys Ieuanc [younger] 1325-1380= (a)?dau Rhys Llwyd (see
Eidio 2) (b)Margaret dau. Nicholas Zouch
There are various problems here, chiefly that the younger Rhys is
really the son of Joan Somerville; and should be husband, rather than
son, of Isabel Stackpole. The Welsh marriage seems to be an
interpolation. Bartrum's pedigrees of Anglo-Welsh families aren't good
in general: he probably tried to mangle together different sources
here, based around one unreliable Welsh one.
FWIW, the New DNB gives a birthdate of c1283 for the elder Rhys and
c1337 for the younger.
Matthew
It's possible that Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies, in its Griffith pedigree,
may have something to add here - but I don't have access to Bartrum...
It's not great- it gives:
Sir Rhys Hen [ie elder] ap Gruffudd, sheriff of Carmarthenshire 1322,
d.1356= (a)Joan dau. Sir Philip Somerville of Wichnor, Staffs (b)Isabel
dau. Sir Richard Stackpole (see Turberville 1)
by (b): Sir Rhys Ieuanc [younger] 1325-1380= (a)?dau Rhys Llwyd (see
Eidio 2) (b)Margaret dau. Nicholas Zouch
There are various problems here, chiefly that the younger Rhys is
really the son of Joan Somerville; and should be husband, rather than
son, of Isabel Stackpole. The Welsh marriage seems to be an
interpolation. Bartrum's pedigrees of Anglo-Welsh families aren't good
in general: he probably tried to mangle together different sources
here, based around one unreliable Welsh one.
FWIW, the New DNB gives a birthdate of c1283 for the elder Rhys and
c1337 for the younger.
Matthew
-
Gjest
Re: Parentage of Margaret Zouche, wife of Rhys ap Griffith a
In a message dated 11/9/05 2:30:50 PM Pacific Standard Time,
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk writes:
<< FWIW, the New DNB gives a birthdate of c1283 for the elder Rhys and
c1337 for the younger. >>
If the new DNB gives a birth of c1337 for the younger, than where does the
abt 25 dec 1325 come from that's been mentioned on this thread?
Thanks
Will Johnson
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk writes:
<< FWIW, the New DNB gives a birthdate of c1283 for the elder Rhys and
c1337 for the younger. >>
If the new DNB gives a birth of c1337 for the younger, than where does the
abt 25 dec 1325 come from that's been mentioned on this thread?
Thanks
Will Johnson