Cecily, wife of William Farrar of Virginia

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Nathaniel Taylor

Cecily, wife of William Farrar of Virginia

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 02 nov 2005 22:01:41

In August 2004 John Ravilious aired, then withdrew, a conjecture that
Cecily, wife successively of Thomas Bailey, Samuel Jordan, and William
Farrar of Virginia (the last who whom has been discussed here several
times) might have been daughter of Sir John Crofts and Mary, daughter of
Sir Thomas Shirley. He had noticed that this could not be since Cecily
Crofts was rumored to have been dallying with the king in the early
1620s (!).

John alluded in passing to the old 'story' (one can find it echoed
around the 'net) that this Cecily was a Phippen. She is often
identified as Cecily, daughter of Roger and Cecily (Jordan) Phippen, who
was (apparently) baptized at Melcombe Regis, Dorset, in 1693/4 and is
mentioned--with no husband--in the Cornish visitation pedigree witnessed
by her brother Rev. George Phippen in 1620.

I am involved in a close examination of this Phippen family of Melcombe
Regis, Dorset. Can anyone point me to the origin of the legendary
association of Cecily Phippen with these Virginian husbands?

Is there any published study of William Farrar which addresses the
origin of this Cecily Phippen - Bailey - Jordan - Farrar theory?

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

wsmorganv@yahoo.com

Re: Cecily, wife of William Farrar of Virginia

Legg inn av wsmorganv@yahoo.com » 03 nov 2005 00:46:19

I have also seen conflicting sources on Cecily's origins. The above
post gives a few, but omits the possibility that she was a daughter of
Thomas Reynolds and Cecily FitzPen of Melcombe Regis.

Can anyone help clear-up this mystery? I descend from the Bailey
marriage . . .

wsmorganv@yahoo.com

Re: Cecily, wife of William Farrar of Virginia

Legg inn av wsmorganv@yahoo.com » 03 nov 2005 01:31:54

Check out this site for more in-depth discussion of Cecily:
http://www.narnet.com/rfa/line17/chris_3.html

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Cecily, wife of William Farrar of Virginia

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 03 nov 2005 04:01:38

In article <1130975179.330822.140830@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"wsmorganv@yahoo.com" <wsmorganv@yahoo.com> wrote:

I have also seen conflicting sources on Cecily's origins. The above
post gives a few, but omits the possibility that she was a daughter of
Thomas Reynolds and Cecily FitzPen of Melcombe Regis.

Rev. George Phippen (1591-1651) of Truro, Cornwall (originally of
Melcombe Regis, Dorset), named a sister Cecily Reignolds in his will of
1650. [By the way, George Phippen adopted the surname 'Fitzpen' out of
pure affectation: the name is unattested anywhere prior to his own use
of it, and is linguistically improbable in the extreme.] His sister
Cecily Phippen was *apparently* baptised in 1593, the fifth known child
of their parents, Robert and Cecily (Jordan) Phippen, who had been
married at Melcombe Regis in 1580. Though she would have been 27, she
was apparently still unmarried in 1620 at the time of the Visitation of
Cornwall, as George did not name a spouse for her in the pedigree he
signed. The name of her (apparently later) Reynolds spouse, or where
they lived, is unknown, but chronologically there is no way this Cecily
(Phippen) Reynolds could be *either* the wife of Thomas Bailey, Samuel
Jordan, and William Farrar, of Virginia, *or* the mother of the wife of
these men. Nor can she have been the mother of Christopher Reynolds of
Isle of Wight County, VA, since he is supposed to have been an adult in
1625; his parentage (despite what one finds on the net) is completely
unknown.

Check out this site for more in-depth discussion of Cecily:
http://www.narnet.com/rfa/line17/chris_3.html

This (from the 'Reynolds Family Association') is an uncritical review of
the question, but it does appear to trace the origins of these various
speculations, which is exactly what I was looking for: thanks!

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

John P. Ravilious

Re: Cecily, wife of William Farrar of Virginia

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 03 nov 2005 04:55:53

Dear Nat, "WS" et al.,

Many thanks for both bringing up this subject, incl. the Reynolds
website and the details from Melcombe Regis.

Actually Nat, I'm not sure how bad a fit this Cecily (Phippen)
Reynolds, other than the *undesirable* reference to her as Cecily
Reignolds in 1650. The chronology concerning Cecily (wife of Bailey,
Farrar et al.) would supposedly place her as being born ca. 1599, based
on a straight reading of the muster of the inhabitants at 'Jordans
Journey' as of 16 February 1623/4 [see below]. She is said therein to
be 'aged 24 yeares'. However, her husband William Farrar is shown
therein as being 'aged 31 yeares', theoretically then born in 1592.
This is off a bit, as the baptismal record found by Alvahn Holmes [The
Farrar's Island Family and its English Ancestry, pp. 49-52, 111-125]
shows he was baptised 28 April 1583 at Croxton, Lincs. - he was
therefore aged 40 at the 1623/4 Muster, a nine year difference (vs. age
31).

~ Not to mention the Neptune arrived in Virginia in 1611, not
1610;
but what's a year here or there.......;)

Certainly much needs explanation, and added research. Possible
reasons come to mind why Cecily, being in Virginia from 1611 onwards,
might be described in erroneous terms in her brother's Visitation
submission (1620) and will (1650). A possibility: that she may have
been married to a Mr. Reynolds prior to leaving for Virginia (aged say
17 or 18), and that remained her identification for Mr. Phippen from
that time on.....

That's a possibility, and a conjecture at best. I don't think we
should count her out as yet (but obviously no strong reason in hand to
count her IN, either...).

Cheers,

John

=================================================


' Willliam fferrar ', res. at 'Jordans Journey', 16 Feb 1623/24 :
appointed as attorney resident there with family of Cecily, widow of
Samuel Jordan :

' The MUSTER of m' WILLIAM FERRAR & m's JORDAN
WILLIAM FERRAR aged 31 yeares in the Neptune in August 1618
SISLEY JORDAN aged 24 yeres in the Swan in August 1610
Jordans Jorney. Charles Cittie
MARY JORDAN her daughter aged 3 yeares ttt borne heare.
MARGRETT JORDAN aged 1 yeare
TEMPERANCE BALEY aged 7 yeares
Servant's
WILLIAM DAWSON aged 25 yeres in the Discouery March 1621
ROBERT TURNER aged 26 yeres in the Tryall June 1619
JOHN HELY aged 24 yeares in the Charles November 1621
ROGER PRESTON aged 21 yeares in the Discouerie March 1621
ROBERT MANUELL aged 25 yeres in the Charles November 1621
THOMAS WILLIAMS aged 24 yeares in the Dutic May 1618
RICHARD JOHNSON aged 22 yeares in the Southampton 1622
WILLIAM HATFEILD aged in the Southampton 1622
JOHN PEAD 35 yeares old in the same Shipp
JOHN FREAME aged 16 yeares in the
same Shipp '


Nathaniel Taylor wrote:
In article <1130975179.330822.140830@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"wsmorganv@yahoo.com" <wsmorganv@yahoo.com> wrote:

I have also seen conflicting sources on Cecily's origins. The above
post gives a few, but omits the possibility that she was a daughter of
Thomas Reynolds and Cecily FitzPen of Melcombe Regis.

Rev. George Phippen (1591-1651) of Truro, Cornwall (originally of
Melcombe Regis, Dorset), named a sister Cecily Reignolds in his will of
1650. [By the way, George Phippen adopted the surname 'Fitzpen' out of
pure affectation: the name is unattested anywhere prior to his own use
of it, and is linguistically improbable in the extreme.] His sister
Cecily Phippen was *apparently* baptised in 1593, the fifth known child
of their parents, Robert and Cecily (Jordan) Phippen, who had been
married at Melcombe Regis in 1580. Though she would have been 27, she
was apparently still unmarried in 1620 at the time of the Visitation of
Cornwall, as George did not name a spouse for her in the pedigree he
signed. The name of her (apparently later) Reynolds spouse, or where
they lived, is unknown, but chronologically there is no way this Cecily
(Phippen) Reynolds could be *either* the wife of Thomas Bailey, Samuel
Jordan, and William Farrar, of Virginia, *or* the mother of the wife of
these men. Nor can she have been the mother of Christopher Reynolds of
Isle of Wight County, VA, since he is supposed to have been an adult in
1625; his parentage (despite what one finds on the net) is completely
unknown.

Check out this site for more in-depth discussion of Cecily:
http://www.narnet.com/rfa/line17/chris_3.html

This (from the 'Reynolds Family Association') is an uncritical review of
the question, but it does appear to trace the origins of these various
speculations, which is exactly what I was looking for: thanks!

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Cecily, wife of William Farrar of Virginia

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 03 nov 2005 05:18:03

In article <1130990153.639538.177280@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
"John P. Ravilious" <therav3@aol.com> wrote:

Dear Nat, "WS" et al.,

Many thanks for both bringing up this subject, incl. the Reynolds
website and the details from Melcombe Regis.

Actually Nat, I'm not sure how bad a fit this Cecily (Phippen)
Reynolds, other than the *undesirable* reference to her as Cecily
Reignolds in 1650. The chronology concerning Cecily (wife of Bailey,
Farrar et al.) would supposedly place her as being born ca. 1599, based
on a straight reading of the muster of the inhabitants at 'Jordans
Journey' as of 16 February 1623/4 [see below]. She is said therein to
be 'aged 24 yeares'. However, her husband William Farrar is shown
therein as being 'aged 31 yeares', theoretically then born in 1592.
This is off a bit, as the baptismal record found by Alvahn Holmes [The
Farrar's Island Family and its English Ancestry, pp. 49-52, 111-125]
shows he was baptised 28 April 1583 at Croxton, Lincs. - he was
therefore aged 40 at the 1623/4 Muster, a nine year difference (vs. age
31).

~ Not to mention the Neptune arrived in Virginia in 1611, not
1610;
but what's a year here or there.......;)

Certainly much needs explanation, and added research. Possible
reasons come to mind why Cecily, being in Virginia from 1611 onwards,
might be described in erroneous terms in her brother's Visitation
submission (1620) and will (1650). A possibility: that she may have
been married to a Mr. Reynolds prior to leaving for Virginia (aged say
17 or 18), and that remained her identification for Mr. Phippen from
that time on.....

That's a possibility, and a conjecture at best. I don't think we
should count her out as yet (but obviously no strong reason in hand to
count her IN, either...).

John,

Thanks for the comment. I doubt very much that the Melcombe Cecily was
born later than 1593; her baptism on a specific date in 1593 was
reported to a genealogist, George D. Phippen in the 19th century, though
unfortunately the surviving Melcombe Regis register has now lost its
first few leaves of baptisms and begins in 1595 (aargh); she is
definitely NOT found baptised any later.

I also doubt that her brother Phippen would NOT have mentioned if his
sister Cecily Reynolds was not near Truro or at least in Dorset at the
time of his will: he explicitly mentions his brother (David, of Hingham
and Boston) and brother's children in New England. I believe that the
origin of the conjectured identity was one of those old-fashioned
Virginia genealogical conjecturers simply seeing the name 'Cecily
Reynolds' in the abstract of George Phippen's will printed in the NEHGR
back in 1890 (and her mother Cecily Jordan), and shoehorned it into
place assuming all these Jordans and Reynoldses and Cecilys had to be
the same people, in Kent, Dorset, Virginia--wherever.

As for giving her an additional Reynolds husband before her
emigration--the poor woman has alerady had extra fictitious husbands
tacked on the other end of her life (the Reynolds Family association
give her two more after Farrar)! I think the simplest conclusion is
that there is no evidence to connect the Virginian Cecily ( ) (Bailey)
(Jordan) Farrar to the Dorset / Cornwall Phippens.


Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

John P. Ravilious

Re: Cecily, wife of William Farrar of Virginia

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 03 nov 2005 05:47:56

Dear Nat,

You wrote: " I think the simplest conclusion is that there is no
evidence to connect the Virginian Cecily ( ) (Bailey) (Jordan) Farrar
to the Dorset / Cornwall Phippens."

Agreed. Unfortunately for we Farrar descendants, g-grandmother
Cecily will likely remain the colonial 'Countess Ida' for some time
yet.....

Cheers,

John


Nathaniel Taylor wrote:
In article <1130990153.639538.177280@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
"John P. Ravilious" <therav3@aol.com> wrote:

Dear Nat, "WS" et al.,

Many thanks for both bringing up this subject, incl. the Reynolds
website and the details from Melcombe Regis.


<<<<<<<<<< SNIP >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Gjest

Re: Cecily, wife of William Farrar of Virginia

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 nov 2005 14:52:02

The same holds true, in so far as the connection (if any) between the Cecily
in question and Peter Montague's children. Although Montague's will clearly
indicates that his wife was named Cecily, as far as I know, there's no
consensus (scholarly or otherwise) as to who was the mother of his children.
For that matter, I'm not entirely sure it's all that clear that his widow was
the same Cecily...

Jeff Duvall

report Quoting "John P. Ravilious" <therav3@aol.com>:

Dear Nat,

You wrote: " I think the simplest conclusion is that there is no
evidence to connect the Virginian Cecily ( ) (Bailey) (Jordan) Farrar
to the Dorset / Cornwall Phippens."

Agreed. Unfortunately for we Farrar descendants, g-grandmother
Cecily will likely remain the colonial 'Countess Ida' for some time
yet.....

Cheers,

John


Nathaniel Taylor wrote:
In article <1130990153.639538.177280@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
"John P. Ravilious" <therav3@aol.com> wrote:

Dear Nat, "WS" et al.,

Many thanks for both bringing up this subject, incl. the Reynolds
website and the details from Melcombe Regis.


SNIP


Tony Hoskins

Re: Cecily, wife of William Farrar of Virginia

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 03 nov 2005 18:47:02

"George Phippen adopted the surname 'Fitzpen' out of
pure affectation: the name is unattested anywhere prior to his own use

of it, and is linguistically improbable in the extreme."

Interesting discussion. But exactly why and how is Fitzpen=Phippen so
linguistically improbable?

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

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