A wife for William Burley, Speaker of the House 1436-43
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Gjest
A wife for William Burley, Speaker of the House 1436-43
On Leo's great web site here
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... 1&tree=LEO
we see this William Burley
not there identified as such
but the connection of his daughter Elizabeth marrying Sir Thomas Trussel
identifies him as the same person in DNB "Burley, William"
THERE identified as the Speaker of the House of Commons 1436-43
among other things.
In his DNB article it mentions his eldest daughter (there unnamed) who
married first Sir Phillip Chetwynd of Ingestrie and second Sir Thomas Lyttleton
Now in + Living Descendents of Blood Royal, Vol 2, "Worth", pg 848-850, Count
d'Angerville; World Nobility, London. 1962
there citing "Visitations of Shropshire, 1623, p 255"
they state that Sir William Burley's wife was Alice Grey
dau of Margaret de Ferrers d 16 Jan 1451/2 and Richard, Lord Grey of Wilton d
Aug 1442
If this link is well-founded then it would give the two daughters of William
Burley, to wit Joan and Elizabeth, a royal connection.
Comments appreciated
Will Johnson
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... 1&tree=LEO
we see this William Burley
not there identified as such
but the connection of his daughter Elizabeth marrying Sir Thomas Trussel
identifies him as the same person in DNB "Burley, William"
THERE identified as the Speaker of the House of Commons 1436-43
among other things.
In his DNB article it mentions his eldest daughter (there unnamed) who
married first Sir Phillip Chetwynd of Ingestrie and second Sir Thomas Lyttleton
Now in + Living Descendents of Blood Royal, Vol 2, "Worth", pg 848-850, Count
d'Angerville; World Nobility, London. 1962
there citing "Visitations of Shropshire, 1623, p 255"
they state that Sir William Burley's wife was Alice Grey
dau of Margaret de Ferrers d 16 Jan 1451/2 and Richard, Lord Grey of Wilton d
Aug 1442
If this link is well-founded then it would give the two daughters of William
Burley, to wit Joan and Elizabeth, a royal connection.
Comments appreciated
Will Johnson
-
Kay Allen
Re: A wife for William Burley, Speaker of the House 1436-43
This matter has been addressed several times.
William Burley was not married to an Alice or a Julian
Grey.
Please see the archives.
Kay Allen AG (R)
--- WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
William Burley was not married to an Alice or a Julian
Grey.
Please see the archives.
Kay Allen AG (R)
--- WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
On Leo's great web site here
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... 1&tree=LEO
we see this William Burley
not there identified as such
but the connection of his daughter Elizabeth
marrying Sir Thomas Trussel
identifies him as the same person in DNB "Burley,
William"
THERE identified as the Speaker of the House of
Commons 1436-43
among other things.
In his DNB article it mentions his eldest daughter
(there unnamed) who
married first Sir Phillip Chetwynd of Ingestrie and
second Sir Thomas Lyttleton
Now in + Living Descendents of Blood Royal, Vol 2,
"Worth", pg 848-850, Count
d'Angerville; World Nobility, London. 1962
there citing "Visitations of Shropshire, 1623, p
255"
they state that Sir William Burley's wife was Alice
Grey
dau of Margaret de Ferrers d 16 Jan 1451/2 and
Richard, Lord Grey of Wilton d
Aug 1442
If this link is well-founded then it would give the
two daughters of William
Burley, to wit Joan and Elizabeth, a royal
connection.
Comments appreciated
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: A wife for William Burley, Speaker of the House 1436-43
In a message dated 10/27/05 11:18:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
allenk@pacbell.net writes:
<< This matter has been addressed several times.
William Burley was not married to an Alice or a Julian
Grey. >>
Kay I did a google search for Gen-medieval-l and "William Burley" and only
found a response by Tim that said the matter is still open as to who William
Burley was or was not married to.
Will Johnson
allenk@pacbell.net writes:
<< This matter has been addressed several times.
William Burley was not married to an Alice or a Julian
Grey. >>
Kay I did a google search for Gen-medieval-l and "William Burley" and only
found a response by Tim that said the matter is still open as to who William
Burley was or was not married to.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: A wife for William Burley, Speaker of the House 1436-43
I have found a quitclaim by William Burley to Margaret, who was wife of
Richard Grey Lord of Wilton and Thomas Ferrers of Tamworth Sr Esq.
That's interesting. How was William related to these two persons?
Will Johnson
Richard Grey Lord of Wilton and Thomas Ferrers of Tamworth Sr Esq.
That's interesting. How was William related to these two persons?
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: A wife for William Burley, Speaker of the House 1436-43
In HoP 1386-1421 Vol 2 p 432 et seq, Roskell et al state that William
Burley, Speaker 1437, 1445 was:
(a) son of John Burley, MP, and Julian - said by Owen & Blakeway in
their 'History of Shrewsbury', ii p139 to be a daughter of Reynold,
Lord Grey of Ruthin but Roskell notes "no evidence has been found to
support this statement";
(b) married firstly to Ellen, daughter & coheir of John Grendon, and
widow of John Brown of Lichfield, and married secondly to Margaret,
possibly daughter of Thomas Parys of Ludlow;
(c) father of Joan, married to Sir Philip Chetwynd and then Thomas
Lyttleton, and Elizabeth, married to John Hopton and then, apparently,
to Trussell (together with a son who predeceased him without issue).
It is added (p 434) "whether there is any truth in the statement that
Burley himself married a daughter of Reynold (sic), Lord Grey of
Wilton, may not now be discovered, but certainly he had business
dealing with Lord Grey".
Burley, Speaker 1437, 1445 was:
(a) son of John Burley, MP, and Julian - said by Owen & Blakeway in
their 'History of Shrewsbury', ii p139 to be a daughter of Reynold,
Lord Grey of Ruthin but Roskell notes "no evidence has been found to
support this statement";
(b) married firstly to Ellen, daughter & coheir of John Grendon, and
widow of John Brown of Lichfield, and married secondly to Margaret,
possibly daughter of Thomas Parys of Ludlow;
(c) father of Joan, married to Sir Philip Chetwynd and then Thomas
Lyttleton, and Elizabeth, married to John Hopton and then, apparently,
to Trussell (together with a son who predeceased him without issue).
It is added (p 434) "whether there is any truth in the statement that
Burley himself married a daughter of Reynold (sic), Lord Grey of
Wilton, may not now be discovered, but certainly he had business
dealing with Lord Grey".
-
Gjest
Re: A wife for William Burley, Speaker of the House 1436-43
Or the Margaret who married William Burley may not have been daughter
of Thomas Parys.
I agree that the quitclaim from William to Margaret could well have
been in anticipation of marriage, having seen a similar transfer
pre-marriage between Sir John Loudham and his wife-to-be.
According to Burke's, Richard, 6th Lord Grey de Wilton (d 1442) married
secondly Margaret, "allegedly dau of William Ferrers" who is said to
have m (2) her 1st husband's cousin, "1st and last Baron Richemount
Grey" (sic; i.e. the grandson of Reynold, 3rd Lord Grey of Wilton. ex.
1461); only a son, Reynold, 7th Lord Grey de Wilton, by Richard's 1st
marriage, is named in Burke's.
Reynold, born c1421, seems too young to be a putative father-in-law for
William Burley, so presumably Roskell et al slipped up, and meant to
refer to the suggestion that Richard, Lord Grey of Wilton, had a
daughter married to the Speaker (born before 1393; died 1458).
Roskell notes William's widow was living in 1465 when she was sued by
her step-daughter and -son-in-law.
Are details of the quitclaim available?
of Thomas Parys.
I agree that the quitclaim from William to Margaret could well have
been in anticipation of marriage, having seen a similar transfer
pre-marriage between Sir John Loudham and his wife-to-be.
According to Burke's, Richard, 6th Lord Grey de Wilton (d 1442) married
secondly Margaret, "allegedly dau of William Ferrers" who is said to
have m (2) her 1st husband's cousin, "1st and last Baron Richemount
Grey" (sic; i.e. the grandson of Reynold, 3rd Lord Grey of Wilton. ex.
1461); only a son, Reynold, 7th Lord Grey de Wilton, by Richard's 1st
marriage, is named in Burke's.
Reynold, born c1421, seems too young to be a putative father-in-law for
William Burley, so presumably Roskell et al slipped up, and meant to
refer to the suggestion that Richard, Lord Grey of Wilton, had a
daughter married to the Speaker (born before 1393; died 1458).
Roskell notes William's widow was living in 1465 when she was sued by
her step-daughter and -son-in-law.
Are details of the quitclaim available?
-
Gjest
Re: A wife for William Burley, Speaker of the House 1436-43
In a message dated 10/27/05 11:58:53 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
WJhonson@aol.com writes:
<< I have found a quitclaim by William Burley to Margaret, who was wife of
Richard Grey Lord of Wilton and Thomas Ferrers of Tamworth Sr Esq. >>
Kay Allen replied to me privately that Margaret [above] may have been
William's second wife. But would a man quit-claim to his own wife?
Comments appreciated.
Will Johnson
WJhonson@aol.com writes:
<< I have found a quitclaim by William Burley to Margaret, who was wife of
Richard Grey Lord of Wilton and Thomas Ferrers of Tamworth Sr Esq. >>
Kay Allen replied to me privately that Margaret [above] may have been
William's second wife. But would a man quit-claim to his own wife?
Comments appreciated.
Will Johnson
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: A wife for William Burley, Speaker of the House 1436-43
Dear Michael ~
Margaret Ferrers' two husbands, Richard Grey, Knt., 6th Lord Grey of
Wilton (died 1442), and Thomas Grey, Knt., Lord Richemount Grey (died
1461), were not first cousins as stated by Burke. Rather, they were
related in the 4th and 5th degrees of kindred, or, in modern terms,
they were 3rd cousins once removed [see Richardson, Plantagenet
Ancestry (2004): 619-622, 764-767; Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry
(2005): 378-381, 889-892]. For the evidence that Margaret Ferrers was
the daughter of William Ferrers, 5th Lord Ferrers of Groby, see
Calendar of MSS in Various Colls. 7 (Hist. Manuscripts Commission 55)
(1914): 332.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
Margaret Ferrers' two husbands, Richard Grey, Knt., 6th Lord Grey of
Wilton (died 1442), and Thomas Grey, Knt., Lord Richemount Grey (died
1461), were not first cousins as stated by Burke. Rather, they were
related in the 4th and 5th degrees of kindred, or, in modern terms,
they were 3rd cousins once removed [see Richardson, Plantagenet
Ancestry (2004): 619-622, 764-767; Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry
(2005): 378-381, 889-892]. For the evidence that Margaret Ferrers was
the daughter of William Ferrers, 5th Lord Ferrers of Groby, see
Calendar of MSS in Various Colls. 7 (Hist. Manuscripts Commission 55)
(1914): 332.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
Or the Margaret who married William Burley may not have been daughter
of Thomas Parys.
I agree that the quitclaim from William to Margaret could well have
been in anticipation of marriage, having seen a similar transfer
pre-marriage between Sir John Loudham and his wife-to-be.
According to Burke's, Richard, 6th Lord Grey de Wilton (d 1442) married
secondly Margaret, "allegedly dau of William Ferrers" who is said to
have m (2) her 1st husband's cousin, "1st and last Baron Richemount
Grey" (sic; i.e. the grandson of Reynold, 3rd Lord Grey of Wilton. ex.
1461); only a son, Reynold, 7th Lord Grey de Wilton, by Richard's 1st
marriage, is named in Burke's.
Reynold, born c1421, seems too young to be a putative father-in-law for
William Burley, so presumably Roskell et al slipped up, and meant to
refer to the suggestion that Richard, Lord Grey of Wilton, had a
daughter married to the Speaker (born before 1393; died 1458).
Roskell notes William's widow was living in 1465 when she was sued by
her step-daughter and -son-in-law.
Are details of the quitclaim available?
-
Kay Allen
Re: A wife for William Burley, Speaker of the House 1436-43
-Perhaps it was before they were married, if indeed,
my supposition is correct. Somewhat in the nature of a
"down-payment".
K
-- WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
my supposition is correct. Somewhat in the nature of a
"down-payment".
K
-- WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 10/27/05 11:58:53 AM Pacific
Daylight Time,
WJhonson@aol.com writes:
I have found a quitclaim by William Burley to
Margaret, who was wife of
Richard Grey Lord of Wilton and Thomas Ferrers of
Tamworth Sr Esq.
Kay Allen replied to me privately that Margaret
[above] may have been
William's second wife. But would a man quit-claim
to his own wife?
Comments appreciated.
Will Johnson
-
Kay Allen
Re: A wife for William Burley, Speaker of the House 1436-43
The Willian to whom Margaret Parys was married may
well be another William Burley.
What I do know, for sure, is that Margaret's IPM names
her own heir as a Thomas Grey.
Did Richard Grey de Wilton and his wige Margaret have
a son Thomas?
Kay Allen AG (R)
--- mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
well be another William Burley.
What I do know, for sure, is that Margaret's IPM names
her own heir as a Thomas Grey.
Did Richard Grey de Wilton and his wige Margaret have
a son Thomas?
Kay Allen AG (R)
--- mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
In HoP 1386-1421 Vol 2 p 432 et seq, Roskell et al
state that William
Burley, Speaker 1437, 1445 was:
(a) son of John Burley, MP, and Julian - said by
Owen & Blakeway in
their 'History of Shrewsbury', ii p139 to be a
daughter of Reynold,
Lord Grey of Ruthin but Roskell notes "no evidence
has been found to
support this statement";
(b) married firstly to Ellen, daughter & coheir of
John Grendon, and
widow of John Brown of Lichfield, and married
secondly to Margaret,
possibly daughter of Thomas Parys of Ludlow;
(c) father of Joan, married to Sir Philip Chetwynd
and then Thomas
Lyttleton, and Elizabeth, married to John Hopton and
then, apparently,
to Trussell (together with a son who predeceased him
without issue).
It is added (p 434) "whether there is any truth in
the statement that
Burley himself married a daughter of Reynold (sic),
Lord Grey of
Wilton, may not now be discovered, but certainly he
had business
dealing with Lord Grey".
-
Gjest
Re: A wife for William Burley, Speaker of the House 1436-43
The quitclaim appears to deal with Tamworth and the appearance together of
Margaret, former wife of Richard Lord of Wilton with Thomas Ferrers of Tamworth
Sr Esq seems to me at first glace to be related to the Ferrers family, not the
Grey family.
The naming of Thomas Ferrers "Sr" would imply that his name and namesake was
already born by the date of the quitclaim (dated to 1450).
However this should imply that William Burley has a rather close connection
to the Ferrers family.
Will Johnson
Margaret, former wife of Richard Lord of Wilton with Thomas Ferrers of Tamworth
Sr Esq seems to me at first glace to be related to the Ferrers family, not the
Grey family.
The naming of Thomas Ferrers "Sr" would imply that his name and namesake was
already born by the date of the quitclaim (dated to 1450).
However this should imply that William Burley has a rather close connection
to the Ferrers family.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: A wife for William Burley, Speaker of the House 1436-43
In a message dated 10/27/05 2:06:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:
<< Reynold, born c1421, seems too young to be a putative father-in-law for
William Burley, so presumably Roskell et al slipped up, and meant to
refer to the suggestion that Richard, Lord Grey of Wilton, had a
daughter married to the Speaker (born before 1393; died 1458). >>
If the dating of the quitclaim is accurate (1450) this would imply the former
husband of Margaret could not have died in 1458.
Living Descendents of Blood Royal, Vol 2, "Hooker", pg 430-3, Count
d'Angerville; World Nobility, London. 1962
gives the death date of Richard, Lord Grey of Wilton as Aug 1442
Will Johnson
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:
<< Reynold, born c1421, seems too young to be a putative father-in-law for
William Burley, so presumably Roskell et al slipped up, and meant to
refer to the suggestion that Richard, Lord Grey of Wilton, had a
daughter married to the Speaker (born before 1393; died 1458). >>
If the dating of the quitclaim is accurate (1450) this would imply the former
husband of Margaret could not have died in 1458.
Living Descendents of Blood Royal, Vol 2, "Hooker", pg 430-3, Count
d'Angerville; World Nobility, London. 1962
gives the death date of Richard, Lord Grey of Wilton as Aug 1442
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: A wife for William Burley, Speaker of the House 1436-43
In looking into whether William Burley could have married a Ferrers, I was
researching Tamworth Castle and came upon this document. Among other things,
does this tell us that Baldwin Freville of Tamworth Castle had died and this is
the distribution of his estate? That would mean possibly that Margaret
Willoughby is a Freville daughter of Baldwins; and also that Roger Aston's mother
was a Freville daughter of Baldwin's.
Comments appreciated
Will Johnson
--------------------------------------------------
Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office: Gregory of Stivichall [DR10/971
- DR10/1410]
GREGORY OF STIVICHALL
Catalogue Ref. DR10
Creator(s): Gregory family of Stivichall, Warwickshire
DOCUMENTS OF TITLE
DEEDS AND PAPERS
Warwickshire
Tamworth, etc
FILE - DEEDS AND PAPERS - ref. DR10/1316 - date: 19 August 1423
[from Scope and Content] Thomas Ferrers and Elizabeth his wife to hold the
castle of Tamworth, the manor of Tadyngton', co. Hereford, the manors of
Merston' and Lee [Lea Marston], the manor of Stychale and the manor of Stretford'
[near Tamworth, now lost], £10. 6s. 0d. from Combe Abbey, rents (specified) in
Coventre and two thirds of the lands of Adam Seyntcler in Waverton [Warton, co.
Warwick]. Roger Aston to hold the manor of Asshsted [Ashtead] and Newedegate
[Newdigate], co. Surrey, the moiety of the manor of Henley, the manor of
Pynley, co. Warwick, the manor of Beknore, [lost] co. Worcs. and the manor of
Yatisbury [Yatesbury], co. Wilts. Hugh Wylloughby and Margaret his wife to hold the
manors of Middelton', Wykyn, Whitnassh in co. Warwick, a messuage and virgate
of land in Whitleye, co. Warwick, three rents (specified) in Coventre, the
manor of Gounthorp' and Loudham, co. Nottingham and the manor of Bradford, Fern
and Maune [Mawne] in co. Hereford. Also 10s. 11d. annually from Roger Aston as
his share exceeds that of Hugh and Margaret. Thomas and Elizabeth Ferrers also
grant to the said Hugh and Margaret the remaining one third of the lands of
Adam de Seintcler in Waverton' now held as dower by his widow Alice. Thomas and
Elizabeth Ferrers are also to hold the reversion of certain lands in
Middleton' in the tenure of Thomas Alblaster for life, paying annually to the said
Roger and to the said Hugh and Margaret a third of their annual value. With
mutual securities to perform these and other obligations.
researching Tamworth Castle and came upon this document. Among other things,
does this tell us that Baldwin Freville of Tamworth Castle had died and this is
the distribution of his estate? That would mean possibly that Margaret
Willoughby is a Freville daughter of Baldwins; and also that Roger Aston's mother
was a Freville daughter of Baldwin's.
Comments appreciated
Will Johnson
--------------------------------------------------
Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office: Gregory of Stivichall [DR10/971
- DR10/1410]
GREGORY OF STIVICHALL
Catalogue Ref. DR10
Creator(s): Gregory family of Stivichall, Warwickshire
DOCUMENTS OF TITLE
DEEDS AND PAPERS
Warwickshire
Tamworth, etc
FILE - DEEDS AND PAPERS - ref. DR10/1316 - date: 19 August 1423
[from Scope and Content] Thomas Ferrers and Elizabeth his wife to hold the
castle of Tamworth, the manor of Tadyngton', co. Hereford, the manors of
Merston' and Lee [Lea Marston], the manor of Stychale and the manor of Stretford'
[near Tamworth, now lost], £10. 6s. 0d. from Combe Abbey, rents (specified) in
Coventre and two thirds of the lands of Adam Seyntcler in Waverton [Warton, co.
Warwick]. Roger Aston to hold the manor of Asshsted [Ashtead] and Newedegate
[Newdigate], co. Surrey, the moiety of the manor of Henley, the manor of
Pynley, co. Warwick, the manor of Beknore, [lost] co. Worcs. and the manor of
Yatisbury [Yatesbury], co. Wilts. Hugh Wylloughby and Margaret his wife to hold the
manors of Middelton', Wykyn, Whitnassh in co. Warwick, a messuage and virgate
of land in Whitleye, co. Warwick, three rents (specified) in Coventre, the
manor of Gounthorp' and Loudham, co. Nottingham and the manor of Bradford, Fern
and Maune [Mawne] in co. Hereford. Also 10s. 11d. annually from Roger Aston as
his share exceeds that of Hugh and Margaret. Thomas and Elizabeth Ferrers also
grant to the said Hugh and Margaret the remaining one third of the lands of
Adam de Seintcler in Waverton' now held as dower by his widow Alice. Thomas and
Elizabeth Ferrers are also to hold the reversion of certain lands in
Middleton' in the tenure of Thomas Alblaster for life, paying annually to the said
Roger and to the said Hugh and Margaret a third of their annual value. With
mutual securities to perform these and other obligations.
-
Gjest
Re: A wife for William Burley, Speaker of the House 1436-43
Thank you Will for that document from A2A which sheds possible light on the
wife of Thomas Ferrers of Tamworth Castle.
May I present another document which hardens the cement and proclaims the
exact relationship between these persons? By the way I would suggest the
possibility that "Roger" Aston is the father, while "Robert" Aston is the son in
these two documents. Although another possibility would be that Roger was eldest
son and had died between the two documents.
Further research into any or all of these various properties should
illuminate more of this particular Freville family.
Will Johnson
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Coventry Archives: Antiquarian collection of George Eld
Antiquarian collection of George Eld
Catalogue Ref. PA 17
Creator(s): Eld, George, fl 1862-1911, of Coventry, antiquarian
FILE - Copy of Partition Deed (5th. Oct., 1452) - ref. PA 17/67/2 - date: 1st
Aug 1675
[from Scope and Content] Whereby, excepting the court of Stipershull and
knight service, the premises of Baldwin Freville, Kt. comprising the manors of
Tamworth (Warws. and Staffs.; with lands in Wigginton, Staffs.), Toddington
("Herefs.", recte Glos.), "Marston" (Warws.), "Hanesborough" and "Stretford"
(Warws.) and Styvechale (Coventry; including Stifford's Mill, Hill Mill and
Alderford Mill), together with land at Drayton (Staffs.) held from Ralph Basset of
Drayton, land at "Waverton" [Warton] [Warws.], 27d. rents in Allesley and Meriden
(both Warws.), 16/- of rents in Coventry (on Thomas Wylgryse's holding, 7/4;
on Richard Braytoft's, 6/8; on Thomas Gylbert (barker)'s, 6d.; on John
Welford's, 2/- [sic]), lands in Wilnecote (held by Robert Grendon on lease from
Thomas [I] Ferrers (esq.; holder of property belonging to Elizabeth, one of Baldwin
Freville's sisters)) and the advowson of "Hanerbaugh" go to Thomas [I]
Ferrers and Thomas [II] Ferrers (son of Thomas [I] and his wife Elizabeth); the
manors of Ashted and Newdegate (Surrey), "Beknore" (Worcs.), Mortesbury (Wilts.),
Pinley (Warws./ Coventry; with 6/- rent, viz 3/- from Corpus Christi Guild
tenements, 3/- from William Swanne's) and half Henley-in-Arden (Warws.)'s
(excepting Styvechale [sic] and Ashted advowsons) go to Robert Aston (esq.; son of
Joyce, another of B. Freville's sisters); and the manors of Middleton and
Whitnash (Warws.) and a Middleton tenement called "Venos" (occupied by Thomas
Arblaster, esq. for life), all R. Grendon's Wilnecote land, a messuage and virgate
in Whitley (Coventry) and 11/- rent in Coventry (viz. 8/- from tenement held by
Richard Frebody and his wife Isabel in inheritance from her father Robert
Danyell, and 3/- from John Sywall's tenement), the manors of Wyken (Coventry), of
Gunthorpe and Loudeham (Notts.), and of Bradford Ferme and Mawne (Herefs.),
and the advowsons of St. James's Hospital (Tamworth) and Preston [Bagot]
(Warws.) go to Richard Byngham (justice in assize) and his wife Margaret (a third
Freville sister): by final concord, Ralph Basset has settled Drayton properties
upon Richard Byngham for £10; if Baldwin Freville were to die childless, those
properties, plus one-third of Middleton manor, were transferred by him,
Alexander Freville and his wife Joan to Elizabeth [Ferrers], but now Thomas [I] and
Thomas [II] Ferrers transfer their share of the manor to the Bynghams.
wife of Thomas Ferrers of Tamworth Castle.
May I present another document which hardens the cement and proclaims the
exact relationship between these persons? By the way I would suggest the
possibility that "Roger" Aston is the father, while "Robert" Aston is the son in
these two documents. Although another possibility would be that Roger was eldest
son and had died between the two documents.
Further research into any or all of these various properties should
illuminate more of this particular Freville family.
Will Johnson
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Coventry Archives: Antiquarian collection of George Eld
Antiquarian collection of George Eld
Catalogue Ref. PA 17
Creator(s): Eld, George, fl 1862-1911, of Coventry, antiquarian
FILE - Copy of Partition Deed (5th. Oct., 1452) - ref. PA 17/67/2 - date: 1st
Aug 1675
[from Scope and Content] Whereby, excepting the court of Stipershull and
knight service, the premises of Baldwin Freville, Kt. comprising the manors of
Tamworth (Warws. and Staffs.; with lands in Wigginton, Staffs.), Toddington
("Herefs.", recte Glos.), "Marston" (Warws.), "Hanesborough" and "Stretford"
(Warws.) and Styvechale (Coventry; including Stifford's Mill, Hill Mill and
Alderford Mill), together with land at Drayton (Staffs.) held from Ralph Basset of
Drayton, land at "Waverton" [Warton] [Warws.], 27d. rents in Allesley and Meriden
(both Warws.), 16/- of rents in Coventry (on Thomas Wylgryse's holding, 7/4;
on Richard Braytoft's, 6/8; on Thomas Gylbert (barker)'s, 6d.; on John
Welford's, 2/- [sic]), lands in Wilnecote (held by Robert Grendon on lease from
Thomas [I] Ferrers (esq.; holder of property belonging to Elizabeth, one of Baldwin
Freville's sisters)) and the advowson of "Hanerbaugh" go to Thomas [I]
Ferrers and Thomas [II] Ferrers (son of Thomas [I] and his wife Elizabeth); the
manors of Ashted and Newdegate (Surrey), "Beknore" (Worcs.), Mortesbury (Wilts.),
Pinley (Warws./ Coventry; with 6/- rent, viz 3/- from Corpus Christi Guild
tenements, 3/- from William Swanne's) and half Henley-in-Arden (Warws.)'s
(excepting Styvechale [sic] and Ashted advowsons) go to Robert Aston (esq.; son of
Joyce, another of B. Freville's sisters); and the manors of Middleton and
Whitnash (Warws.) and a Middleton tenement called "Venos" (occupied by Thomas
Arblaster, esq. for life), all R. Grendon's Wilnecote land, a messuage and virgate
in Whitley (Coventry) and 11/- rent in Coventry (viz. 8/- from tenement held by
Richard Frebody and his wife Isabel in inheritance from her father Robert
Danyell, and 3/- from John Sywall's tenement), the manors of Wyken (Coventry), of
Gunthorpe and Loudeham (Notts.), and of Bradford Ferme and Mawne (Herefs.),
and the advowsons of St. James's Hospital (Tamworth) and Preston [Bagot]
(Warws.) go to Richard Byngham (justice in assize) and his wife Margaret (a third
Freville sister): by final concord, Ralph Basset has settled Drayton properties
upon Richard Byngham for £10; if Baldwin Freville were to die childless, those
properties, plus one-third of Middleton manor, were transferred by him,
Alexander Freville and his wife Joan to Elizabeth [Ferrers], but now Thomas [I] and
Thomas [II] Ferrers transfer their share of the manor to the Bynghams.
-
Kay Allen
Re: A wife for William Burley, Speaker of the House 1436-43
Margaret Willoughby was born a Freville as was Joyce
Aston. But I do not show that they were sisters.
Kay Allen AG (R)
--- WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
Aston. But I do not show that they were sisters.
Kay Allen AG (R)
--- WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In looking into whether William Burley could have
married a Ferrers, I was
researching Tamworth Castle and came upon this
document. Among other things,
does this tell us that Baldwin Freville of Tamworth
Castle had died and this is
the distribution of his estate? That would mean
possibly that Margaret
Willoughby is a Freville daughter of Baldwins; and
also that Roger Aston's mother
was a Freville daughter of Baldwin's.
Comments appreciated
Will Johnson
--------------------------------------------------
Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office: Gregory
of Stivichall [DR10/971
- DR10/1410]
GREGORY OF STIVICHALL
Catalogue Ref. DR10
Creator(s): Gregory family of Stivichall,
Warwickshire
DOCUMENTS OF TITLE
DEEDS AND PAPERS
Warwickshire
Tamworth, etc
FILE - DEEDS AND PAPERS - ref. DR10/1316 - date: 19
August 1423
[from Scope and Content] Thomas Ferrers and
Elizabeth his wife to hold the
castle of Tamworth, the manor of Tadyngton', co.
Hereford, the manors of
Merston' and Lee [Lea Marston], the manor of
Stychale and the manor of Stretford'
[near Tamworth, now lost], £10. 6s. 0d. from Combe
Abbey, rents (specified) in
Coventre and two thirds of the lands of Adam
Seyntcler in Waverton [Warton, co.
Warwick]. Roger Aston to hold the manor of Asshsted
[Ashtead] and Newedegate
[Newdigate], co. Surrey, the moiety of the manor of
Henley, the manor of
Pynley, co. Warwick, the manor of Beknore, [lost]
co. Worcs. and the manor of
Yatisbury [Yatesbury], co. Wilts. Hugh Wylloughby
and Margaret his wife to hold the
manors of Middelton', Wykyn, Whitnassh in co.
Warwick, a messuage and virgate
of land in Whitleye, co. Warwick, three rents
(specified) in Coventre, the
manor of Gounthorp' and Loudham, co. Nottingham and
the manor of Bradford, Fern
and Maune [Mawne] in co. Hereford. Also 10s. 11d.
annually from Roger Aston as
his share exceeds that of Hugh and Margaret. Thomas
and Elizabeth Ferrers also
grant to the said Hugh and Margaret the remaining
one third of the lands of
Adam de Seintcler in Waverton' now held as dower by
his widow Alice. Thomas and
Elizabeth Ferrers are also to hold the reversion of
certain lands in
Middleton' in the tenure of Thomas Alblaster for
life, paying annually to the said
Roger and to the said Hugh and Margaret a third of
their annual value. With
mutual securities to perform these and other
obligations.
-
Gjest
Re: A wife for William Burley, Speaker of the House 1436-43
In a message dated 10/27/05 3:11:18 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
allenk@pacbell.net writes:
<< Margaret Willoughby was born a Freville as was Joyce
Aston. But I do not show that they were sisters. >>
We have now proven that these two women were sisters, and also sisters to
Elizabeth Freville the eldest daughter, who married Thomas Ferrers. Included in
this family was a brother Baldwin, named for his father Baldwin who held
Tamworth earlier.
Now I have found that the Hugh Willoughby who married Margaret Freville, (and
who died 1448 to be succeeded by her second husband Richard Bingham) was
ancestral to the Willoughby of Wollaton family that we've discussed here recently.
Will Johnson
allenk@pacbell.net writes:
<< Margaret Willoughby was born a Freville as was Joyce
Aston. But I do not show that they were sisters. >>
We have now proven that these two women were sisters, and also sisters to
Elizabeth Freville the eldest daughter, who married Thomas Ferrers. Included in
this family was a brother Baldwin, named for his father Baldwin who held
Tamworth earlier.
Now I have found that the Hugh Willoughby who married Margaret Freville, (and
who died 1448 to be succeeded by her second husband Richard Bingham) was
ancestral to the Willoughby of Wollaton family that we've discussed here recently.
Will Johnson
-
John Higgins
Re: A wife for William Burley, Speaker of the House 1436-43
See note at bottom...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kay Allen" <allenk@pacbell.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: A wife for William Burley, Speaker of the House 1436-43
Patrick Montague-Smith, in an article in The Genealogists' Magazine, covered
the family of Freville of Tamworth in considerable detail. After the death
of the last Baldwin Freville (an unmarried minor) in 1418, there were three
co-heirs, two of his sisters and the son of another sister who had
predeceased him:
1) Elizabeth, wife of Sir Thomas Ferrers, son of William, 5th Lord Ferrers
of Groby
2) Joyce, wife of Sir Robert Aston [she d. before Baldwin; their son was
Sir Robert]
3) Margaret, wife 1st of Sir Hugh Willoughby and then of Sir Richard
Bingham
Tamworth Castle passed to the eldest co-heir Elizabeth and her husband Sir
Thomas Ferrers.
Interestingly, all three of the Freville sisters are ancestors of Prince
William of Wales.
BTW, you can find all of this, along with a citation for the article, on
Leo's fine website....always wise to check there before you post a question.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kay Allen" <allenk@pacbell.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: A wife for William Burley, Speaker of the House 1436-43
Margaret Willoughby was born a Freville as was Joyce
Aston. But I do not show that they were sisters.
Kay Allen AG (R)
--- WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In looking into whether William Burley could have
married a Ferrers, I was
researching Tamworth Castle and came upon this
document. Among other things,
does this tell us that Baldwin Freville of Tamworth
Castle had died and this is
the distribution of his estate? That would mean
possibly that Margaret
Willoughby is a Freville daughter of Baldwins; and
also that Roger Aston's mother
was a Freville daughter of Baldwin's.
Comments appreciated
Will Johnson
Patrick Montague-Smith, in an article in The Genealogists' Magazine, covered
the family of Freville of Tamworth in considerable detail. After the death
of the last Baldwin Freville (an unmarried minor) in 1418, there were three
co-heirs, two of his sisters and the son of another sister who had
predeceased him:
1) Elizabeth, wife of Sir Thomas Ferrers, son of William, 5th Lord Ferrers
of Groby
2) Joyce, wife of Sir Robert Aston [she d. before Baldwin; their son was
Sir Robert]
3) Margaret, wife 1st of Sir Hugh Willoughby and then of Sir Richard
Bingham
Tamworth Castle passed to the eldest co-heir Elizabeth and her husband Sir
Thomas Ferrers.
Interestingly, all three of the Freville sisters are ancestors of Prince
William of Wales.
BTW, you can find all of this, along with a citation for the article, on
Leo's fine website....always wise to check there before you post a question.
-
Gjest
Re: A wife for William Burley, Speaker of the House 1436-43
In a message dated 10/27/05 3:43:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:
<< 2) Joyce, wife of Sir Robert Aston [she d. before Baldwin; their son was
Sir Robert] >>
All secondary references can be assisted by primary quotations John
The documents state that the one-third inheritor in 1423 was *Roger* Aston
not Robert. In 1452 it was Robert who is there stated to be a son to Joyce.
So I believe Roger must have died between 1423 and 1452, while Joyce died
before 1423.
Will Johnson
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:
<< 2) Joyce, wife of Sir Robert Aston [she d. before Baldwin; their son was
Sir Robert] >>
All secondary references can be assisted by primary quotations John
The documents state that the one-third inheritor in 1423 was *Roger* Aston
not Robert. In 1452 it was Robert who is there stated to be a son to Joyce.
So I believe Roger must have died between 1423 and 1452, while Joyce died
before 1423.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: A wife for William Burley, Speaker of the House 1436-43
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
The Frevilles of Tamworth have been published in a number of sources.
Stirnet has a good summary online at:
http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/briti ... misc04.htm
NB this also shows Roger, rather than Robert, Aston as husband of the
coheiress Joyce Freville.
In a message dated 10/27/05 3:43:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:
2) Joyce, wife of Sir Robert Aston [she d. before Baldwin; their son was
Sir Robert]
All secondary references can be assisted by primary quotations John
The documents state that the one-third inheritor in 1423 was *Roger* Aston
not Robert. In 1452 it was Robert who is there stated to be a son to Joyce.
So I believe Roger must have died between 1423 and 1452, while Joyce died
before 1423.
Will Johnson
The Frevilles of Tamworth have been published in a number of sources.
Stirnet has a good summary online at:
http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/briti ... misc04.htm
NB this also shows Roger, rather than Robert, Aston as husband of the
coheiress Joyce Freville.
-
Gjest
Re: A wife for William Burley, Speaker of the House 1436-43
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Thanks, Douglas - you are quite correctright in pointing out that
Burke's erred in describing Margaret's two husbands as first cousins -
hence the "sic" in my original post, followed by an exemplification of
the actual relationship, which you rightly state is third cousins once
removed.
Cheers
Michael
mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
According to Burke's, Richard, 6th Lord Grey de Wilton (d 1442) married
secondly Margaret, "allegedly dau of William Ferrers" who is said to
have m (2) her 1st husband's cousin, "1st and last Baron Richemount
Grey" (sic; i.e. the grandson of Reynold, 3rd Lord Grey of Wilton. ex.
1461
Dear Michael ~
Margaret Ferrers' two husbands, Richard Grey, Knt., 6th Lord Grey of
Wilton (died 1442), and Thomas Grey, Knt., Lord Richemount Grey (died
1461), were not first cousins as stated by Burke. Rather, they were
related in the 4th and 5th degrees of kindred, or, in modern terms,
they were 3rd cousins once removed.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Thanks, Douglas - you are quite correctright in pointing out that
Burke's erred in describing Margaret's two husbands as first cousins -
hence the "sic" in my original post, followed by an exemplification of
the actual relationship, which you rightly state is third cousins once
removed.
Cheers
Michael
-
Gjest
Re: A wife for William Burley, Speaker of the House 1436-43
In a message dated 10/28/2005 12:51:37 AM Pacific Standard Time, mjcar@btinte
rnet.com writes:
The Frevilles of Tamworth have been published in a number of sources.
Stirnet has a good summary online at:
http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/briti ... misc04.htm
It's an interesting summary, but not really a "good" one, citing only
Burke's old volumes.
In particular I've found a nagging document that seems to imply that
something is horribly amiss with what has been reconstructed so far. I have to work
on these properties a bit more and post later today hopefully on what I've
found. Doesn't look particularly good for one or two of these documents. In
particular it states the marriage of one of these heirs as much later than it
needs to be in order for this construction to work.
Will Johnson
rnet.com writes:
The Frevilles of Tamworth have been published in a number of sources.
Stirnet has a good summary online at:
http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/briti ... misc04.htm
It's an interesting summary, but not really a "good" one, citing only
Burke's old volumes.
In particular I've found a nagging document that seems to imply that
something is horribly amiss with what has been reconstructed so far. I have to work
on these properties a bit more and post later today hopefully on what I've
found. Doesn't look particularly good for one or two of these documents. In
particular it states the marriage of one of these heirs as much later than it
needs to be in order for this construction to work.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: A wife for William Burley, Speaker of the House 1436-43
I don't meant that Stirnet's Freville stemma cites a good source, but
it does largely accord with what I have seen from other sources, and
therefore I believe it presents a good summary.
Look forward to further details, Will.
MAR
it does largely accord with what I have seen from other sources, and
therefore I believe it presents a good summary.
Look forward to further details, Will.
MAR