In the Australian Readers Digest, June 2005, is an enchanting story by Judy Corbett "We Captured the Castle". It is about the restauration of the derelict castle of Gwydir, near Betws-y-Coed in Caernarvonshire. Apparently heritage organisations regarded it beyond salvation but this couple threw themselves into it. After doing an incredible job even the Prince of Wales paid them a visit.
So far so good. In the process the wife became aware of a ghost in the house, a female ghost she realised had the name Margaret. This ghost started to possess her and was a danger to the woman's husband and he was almost killed. She realised what had been happening to her and she told her husband----but not the name of the ghost.
The husband then told her "There's only one person it can be. Her names was Lady Margaret Cave. Then the article tells that Lady Margaret Cave brought a dowry of $7000 (dollars ?, not pounds ?) to the Wynn family, who built the house, when she married the first baronet's eldest son John Wynn in 1606, but she was a dissatisfied and bitter woman who quarrelled with the servants and generally made life a torment for her husband. To escape her, Sir John embarked on a European tour, and died while abroad, aged 31. The anger and loathing she had felt towards Sir John had been transferred through me (the wife) to Peter (the husband).
Recently we found a 19th century account of Gwydir, mentioning the room where all this (i presume the haunting) had happened. "Sir Richard Wynn's Chamber," it said, "also called the Ghost Room."
----------Here are genealogical facts given which should be verifiable but in how far are the above details correct?
The Complete Baronetage Volume I page 64.
Maurice Wynn, of Gwydir, married Jane Bulkeley
their son
Sir John Wynne, 1st Baronet, of Gwydir, married Sidney Gerrard and they had 11 sons and two daughters.
He was survived by his first surviving son Sir Richard Wynne, 2nd Baronet, of Gwedyr
in a foot note is mentioned
John Wynn (who probably was the "Sir John Wynn of Caernarvon" , who was knighted in Whitehall 19 May 1613) is mentioned in Collins' Baronetage (1720) as the eldest son of the 1st Baronet, it being there stated that "he succeeded to the title and the estate, but dying unmarried, was succeeded by Richard his brother.
---This seems to imply that the Sir John Wynn who ran out of his wife was not married. But then CP Volume VIII page 119 brings us more information. Francis Aungier, 1st Baron Longford, married 3rdly Margaret, widow of Sir John Wynne, and daughter of Sir Thomas Cave by Eleanor St.John, He died (etc) and his widow married Sir Thomas Wenman of Dublin and she died in 1656.
Surely this must be the Lady Margaret Cave referred to. This Margaret had the prefix Lady because she was the wife of Sir John Wynn(e). Was this Sir John a 2nd Baronet in fact as Collins ' Baronetage maintains? But then Collins' maintains he was not married.
If she married twice more after Sir John Wynn(e) why would she be haunting Sir John Wynn(e)'s family home?
If we combine the details, Sir John and Margaret Cave married in 1606, he was knighted in 1613, and then he dies aged 31 abroad. The Complete Baronetage tells that Sir John's father (Sir John, 1st Baronet) died 1 March 1626. The father married "about 1575" meaning Margaret's husband was born probably after 1580 and dying age 31 after 1613 seems to make him born 1582 and more likely after. It all could fit-----but does it? Can anyone add to this tale?
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
Ghost Busted ???
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Ghost Busted ???
In message of 26 Oct, leovdpas@netspeed.com.au ("Leo van de Pas") wrote:
Just to dampen down the flames, I used to know a diocesan exorcist and
he said he did nto know of a single case of haunting that was not
accounted for by a disturbed member of the family. The corollorary was
that it was much more fun for the family to say that some devil was
around than admit that some member of it was strongly disturbed.
The solution was always to identify and treat the disturbed person.
(Though if they would not accept the treatment, things could get a bit
fraught.) This exorcist as wallas beign a cleric was also a professor
of psychology (and may even have had some psychiatry qualifications as
well).
Mind you such skills were not around in the early 17th century.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
In the Australian Readers Digest, June 2005, is an enchanting story
by Judy Corbett "We Captured the Castle". It is about the
restauration of the derelict castle of Gwydir, near Betws-y-Coed in
Caernarvonshire. Apparently heritage organisations regarded it beyond
salvation but this couple threw themselves into it. After doing an
incredible job even the Prince of Wales paid them a visit.
So far so good. In the process the wife became aware of a ghost in
the house, a female ghost she realised had the name Margaret. This
ghost started to possess her and was a danger to the woman's husband
and he was almost killed. She realised what had been happening to her
and she told her husband ---- but not the name of the ghost.
The husband then told her "There's only one person it can be. Her
names was Lady Margaret Cave. Then the article tells that Lady
Margaret Cave brought a dowry of $7000 (dollars ?, not pounds ?) to
the Wynn family, who built the house, when she married the first
baronet's eldest son John Wynn in 1606, but she was a dissatisfied
and bitter woman who quarrelled with the servants and generally made
life a torment for her husband. To escape her, Sir John embarked on a
European tour, and died while abroad, aged 31. The anger and loathing
she had felt towards Sir John had been transferred through me (the
wife) to Peter (the husband).
Just to dampen down the flames, I used to know a diocesan exorcist and
he said he did nto know of a single case of haunting that was not
accounted for by a disturbed member of the family. The corollorary was
that it was much more fun for the family to say that some devil was
around than admit that some member of it was strongly disturbed.
The solution was always to identify and treat the disturbed person.
(Though if they would not accept the treatment, things could get a bit
fraught.) This exorcist as wallas beign a cleric was also a professor
of psychology (and may even have had some psychiatry qualifications as
well).
Mind you such skills were not around in the early 17th century.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
-
Gjest
-
Gjest
Re: Ghost Busted ???
In a message dated 10/26/05 4:36:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
<< June 2005, is an enchanting story by Judy Corbett "We Captured the
Castle". It is about the restauration of the derelict castle of Gwydir, >>
Here is a relevant A2A document citing John Wynn of Gwyder Castle fame
Will Johnson
-------------------------------------------
Cheshire and Chester Archives and Local Studies Service: Mayor of Chester
[ZM/A - ZM/C]
Mayor of Chester
Catalogue Ref. ZM
Creator(s): Mayor of Chester
MAYOR'S LETTERS
Additional letters of the Seventeenth Century - ref. ZM/L/6
FILE [no title] - ref. ZM/L/6/116 - date: 3rd Sept.,1617
[from Scope and Content] Letter from John Wynn to Edward Button, Mayor; from
Gwyder. The King's Castle of Conway which is now in his custody has within the
last three or four years been broken by theives, who have stolen some of the
sheet lead and irons and some of the powder kept within. Asks him to cause the
plumbers, glaziers, smiths and shopkeepers in Chester who sell powder to be
examined whether they have bought any such lead, iron, or powder.
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
<< June 2005, is an enchanting story by Judy Corbett "We Captured the
Castle". It is about the restauration of the derelict castle of Gwydir, >>
Here is a relevant A2A document citing John Wynn of Gwyder Castle fame
Will Johnson
-------------------------------------------
Cheshire and Chester Archives and Local Studies Service: Mayor of Chester
[ZM/A - ZM/C]
Mayor of Chester
Catalogue Ref. ZM
Creator(s): Mayor of Chester
MAYOR'S LETTERS
Additional letters of the Seventeenth Century - ref. ZM/L/6
FILE [no title] - ref. ZM/L/6/116 - date: 3rd Sept.,1617
[from Scope and Content] Letter from John Wynn to Edward Button, Mayor; from
Gwyder. The King's Castle of Conway which is now in his custody has within the
last three or four years been broken by theives, who have stolen some of the
sheet lead and irons and some of the powder kept within. Asks him to cause the
plumbers, glaziers, smiths and shopkeepers in Chester who sell powder to be
examined whether they have bought any such lead, iron, or powder.
-
Gjest
Re: Ghost Busted ???
Could this date refer to your John Wynne who died at age 31 ??
Will Johnson
--------------------------------
Warwickshire County Record Office: Feilding family of Newnham Paddox [CR
2017/L1 - CR 2017/TP830]
FEILDING OF NEWNHAM PADDOX
Catalogue Ref. CR 2017
Creator(s): Feilding family of Newnham Paddox, Warwickshire
THE PENNANT PAPERS
CORRESPONDENCE
The Correspondence of Thomas Pennant (1726-1798) of Downing, Flints.,
Naturalist and traveller
Letters written in the time of Thomas Pennant, but not sent or
received by him.
FILE [no title] - ref. CR 2017/TP424 - date: 18th c
[from Scope and Content] Copy letter in the hand of P. Panton
[c.f. CR 2017/TP21-22] from William Wynne at Wardropp to his father Sir John
Wynne., Bart., 30th November 1619, on the death of the writer's brother from
consumption.
Will Johnson
--------------------------------
Warwickshire County Record Office: Feilding family of Newnham Paddox [CR
2017/L1 - CR 2017/TP830]
FEILDING OF NEWNHAM PADDOX
Catalogue Ref. CR 2017
Creator(s): Feilding family of Newnham Paddox, Warwickshire
THE PENNANT PAPERS
CORRESPONDENCE
The Correspondence of Thomas Pennant (1726-1798) of Downing, Flints.,
Naturalist and traveller
Letters written in the time of Thomas Pennant, but not sent or
received by him.
FILE [no title] - ref. CR 2017/TP424 - date: 18th c
[from Scope and Content] Copy letter in the hand of P. Panton
[c.f. CR 2017/TP21-22] from William Wynne at Wardropp to his father Sir John
Wynne., Bart., 30th November 1619, on the death of the writer's brother from
consumption.
-
Gjest
Re: Ghost Busted ???
"A Genealogical and Heraldic History of The Commoners of Great Britain And
Ireland Enjoying Territorial Possessions or High Official Rank: But Uninvested
With Heritable Honours.
History of the Commoners of Great Britain and Ireland.
Pennant, of Downing and Bychton.
Lineage.
III. Hugh , of Bryn Shone , major in the service of Charles I. who greatly
distinguished himself in the Isle of Anglesey against General Mytton , m. first,
Margaret , (This lady had four husbands; she paid our country the compliment
of beginning and ending with a Welshman: her first was Sir John Wynne , of
Gwedir , junior; they lived unhappily together, which sent him on his travels to
Italy , where he died at Lucca . She then took one of the Milesian race, for
she married Sir Francis Aungier , Master of the Rolls in Ireland , afterwards
created Baron Longford . Thirdly, she gave her hand to an Englishman, Sir
Thomas Wenman , of Oxfordshire ; and, finally, she resigned her antiquated charms
to our gallant major, who in the year 1656 deposited her with his ancestors, in
the church of Whitford .-Thomas Pennant .) baroness Longford , daughter of
Sir Thomas Cave , knt.; and, secondly, Elizabeth , dau. of John Eyton , esq. of
Leeswood . He died in 1669 . "
Will Johnson
Ireland Enjoying Territorial Possessions or High Official Rank: But Uninvested
With Heritable Honours.
History of the Commoners of Great Britain and Ireland.
Pennant, of Downing and Bychton.
Lineage.
III. Hugh , of Bryn Shone , major in the service of Charles I. who greatly
distinguished himself in the Isle of Anglesey against General Mytton , m. first,
Margaret , (This lady had four husbands; she paid our country the compliment
of beginning and ending with a Welshman: her first was Sir John Wynne , of
Gwedir , junior; they lived unhappily together, which sent him on his travels to
Italy , where he died at Lucca . She then took one of the Milesian race, for
she married Sir Francis Aungier , Master of the Rolls in Ireland , afterwards
created Baron Longford . Thirdly, she gave her hand to an Englishman, Sir
Thomas Wenman , of Oxfordshire ; and, finally, she resigned her antiquated charms
to our gallant major, who in the year 1656 deposited her with his ancestors, in
the church of Whitford .-Thomas Pennant .) baroness Longford , daughter of
Sir Thomas Cave , knt.; and, secondly, Elizabeth , dau. of John Eyton , esq. of
Leeswood . He died in 1669 . "
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Ghost Busted ???
Francis Aungier, 1st Baron Longford had at least two wives
The prior one Douglas FitzGerald is a descendent from the Earls of Kildare
and also from Grey, Marquis of Dorset and Richard, Earl of Salisbury among
others.
Will Johnson
The prior one Douglas FitzGerald is a descendent from the Earls of Kildare
and also from Grey, Marquis of Dorset and Richard, Earl of Salisbury among
others.
Will Johnson