Manningham chronology

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Manningham chronology

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 okt 2005 11:29:25

Odd Ottesen has raised off-list the pertinent question of chronology in
the Manningham line. In short, the chronology for Katherine St George
to be the daughter of Sir John Manningham seems difficult. Here are
the issues, and some thoughts:

According to the sources quoted in recent posts, the line runs thus:

1. Thomas Manningham married Katherine Asplion. Issue:
2. Sir John Manningham married firstly [?Edith]. Issue:
3. Katherine Manningham married Sir William St George. Issue:
4. Sir Richard St George married Anne Burgoyne, and left issue.

**********************************

1. Thomas Manningham married Katherine Asplion

Thomas Manningham's birth or death dates are not known (to me).
Roskell et al (HoP) state that he was possibly MP for Appleby in March
1416, and definitely MP for Carlisle in 1419. Additionally, he is known
to have acted as mainpernor in Yorkshire in December 1416. This
indicates he was born at least before 1396.

His was married to his wife Katherine nee Asplion by February 1418 when
her mother, Katherine Asplion nee Brown leased property in Bedfordshire
to them [per Roskell et al]. We do not have any firm dates for
Katherine Manningham nee Asplion.

Her father, John Asplion of London, died before 10 August 1417 [Cal.
Fine Rolls Vol 14 refers to her mother Katherine as "late the wife of
John Asplion" on that date; his will pr. PCC March 1418].

Her mother, Katherine Asplion nee Brown, was born between 1369 [her
mother Eleanor's first husband, John de Raughton, died 23 September
1368 according to his IPM at Cal. IPMs Vol. 14 p 45-6] and 1377 [in the
series of 1417 IPMs following sometime after the death of Katherine
Brown's half-nephew, whose heir she was, she is described as "aged 40
years and more" - Cal. IPMs Vol XX pp 223-4].

This gives an earliest birth date for Katherine Manningham nee Asplion
of 1382, but I suspect circa 1390 is probably more accurate. She was
her mother's heir.

*******************************

2. Sir John Manningham married firstly [?Edith]

Sir John Manningham died on 21 January 1499, according to his IPM [Cal.
IPMs Henry VII Vol 2 p 121]. The earliest reference I have found for
him is from Roskell et al, who state he as alnager for Bedfordshire in
1454. Given that his mother could have been born any time after 1381,
and married before 1418, he could have been born as early as, say 1394,
and as late as 1433. His death date, however, would seem to indicate
that his birth was later rather than earlier within this range.

His will states that he had widow Isabel [who survived until circa
1521, when her will was proved at the PCC]; an earlier wife, Edith, who
seems to have been living circa 1471 when he as an Lancastrian he was
in trouble with Edward IV's regime, and a son and heir William, to whom
Sir John apportioned blame of age during the time of his troubles.

According to the Cal. Patent Rolls for 14 Edward IV, Sir John had been
"indicted of divers offences against the Crown and afterwards outlawed
at the King's suit at Hertford on 8 April 13 Edward IV [1473]; his
proprety was granted to Lord Grey of Ruthin on 28 November 1474 [Cal.
Pat. Rolls], and finally his attainder and outlawry were annulled by
Act of Parliament 23 March 1475 [Cal. Pat. Rolls]. If the reference to
William's actions during these times of trouble is read to indicate
that he was then of age [which he need not have been], this would give
William his son a birthdate of before 1453.

Sir John's IPM of 1499 says that William his son and heir was then aged
45 and more, which would give a birthdate of before 1455 - consistent
with the above.

Of course, Edith, presumably the mother of Sir John's son William, need
not have been the mother of Katherine as well, if she were Sir John's
daughter; he could have had a third, earliest wife.

****************************

3. Katherine Manningham married Sir William St George.

According to both the sources which name Katherine as Sir John
Manningham's daughter (Vis. Cambs 1575/1619 and Burke's Peerage &
Baronetage sub St George), Katherine was Sir William's second wife.

Both sources agree that Sir William's father, John St George, died
during the lifetime of his own father, Sir Baldwin St George. As Sir
Baldwin's brass at Hatley tells us that he died on 18 February 1425,
John must have died before that date. This means that Sir William must
have been born no later than 1425.

The only primary document I know of linking the Manningham and St
George families is from PROCAT, wherein Thomas Manningham, Esquire, and
William St George, Knight, are named as feofees in respect of property
in Huntingdonshire [C/1/18/37]; unfortunately the catalogue only shows
this as "1386 - 1486" and I haven't yet had the opportunity to review
the original at Kew.

Vis. Cambs states that Sir William St George died 11 Edward IV, while
Burke's says 1472. In fact, the correct date is 1471, as we see from
Cal. Fine Rolls Vol 21, p 3: writ of clausit extremum after the death
of Sir William St George, knight, issued 13 August 1471 (Cambs) and 26
April 1472 (Warwickshire, where he appears to have held land as feofee
or guardian).

PROCAT also tells us that Sir William had outlived his second wife,
Katherine Manningham, and married a third time, to Margaret, afterwards
the wife of William Wentworth, JP [e.g. C1/54/333 Richard Seintgeorge,
knight, son and heir of William Seintgeorge, knight, deceased v.
William Wentworth, esquire, husband of Dame Margaret, previously the
wife of the said William Seintgeorge]. Accordingly, we know that
Katherine St George nee Manningham was dead by 1471.

*******************************

4. Sir Richard St George married Anne Burgoyne

According to Vis. Cambs, Sir Richard died 11 Henry VII [c1491];
according to Burke's, his dates were 1446 to 1485. The latter is
correct, at least in respect of the death date. According to Cal. Fine
Rolls Vol. 22 p 2 & 4, writs of diem clausit extremum were issued after
the death of Richard St George, knight, of Cambs, 6 November 1485
[vacated] and 26 November 1485.

His birth date could well have been 1446; certainly he was of age by 6
May 1470, when he was granted a pardon by Edward IV for "all offences
committed by him before 1 May" [Cal. Pat. Rolls 1467-1477 p 208, as
"Richard Seintgeorge. Esquire"]; he was certainly born by May 1449 at
the latest.

********************************

The sticking point then is whether Sir John Manningham, died 1499,
could have had a grandson born in 1446/9.

The chronology on this is tight. If Sir John was born before 1410, as
is possible [his mother could have been born as early as 1382], and had
a daughter by a first marriage by 1430, then it could work.

MAR

Gjest

Re: Manningham chronology

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 okt 2005 15:46:31

Looking again at John Asplion's will, it appears [from the obtuse
Latin, difficult handwriting and poor-quality copy] that he confirms
governance of his daughter Katherine to his wife Katherine nee Brown.
This presumably indicates that she was unmarried then. The will is
dated "the feast of Pope St Gregory, 6 Henry IV" - i.e. 3 September
1405.

We can therefore probably date Sir John Manningham's birth to after
1405.

MAR

Gjest

Re: Manningham chronology

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 nov 2005 20:43:18

mjcar@btinternet.com schrieb:

Looking again at John Asplion's will, it appears [from the obtuse
Latin, difficult handwriting and poor-quality copy] that he confirms
governance of his daughter Katherine to his wife Katherine nee Brown.
This presumably indicates that she was unmarried then. The will is
dated "the feast of Pope St Gregory, 6 Henry IV" - i.e. 3 September
1405.

We can therefore probably date Sir John Manningham's birth to after
1405.

In his "Old Age in Late Medieval England", Joel Thomas Rosenthal refers
to Sir John Manningham's will preamble as an indication of attitudes to
old age.

Having looked again at the will, it is clear that this document
supports the contention that Sir John was an old man - how old, we
cannot say:

"feeling myself enfeebled and duly visited by sundry infirmities in my
body and right unwieldy in this my decrepit age..."God hath given me
long time and space of life".

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