At Leo's great database here
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... 4&tree=LEO
We see this person Margaret Bruce dau of Robert, King of Scots 1306-29
She married abt 28 Sep 1345 to William 5th Earl of Sutherland
And then she died "30 Mar 1346 / 9 Nov 1347"
However, the child of this union John, was Master of Sutherland (heir
presumptive to his father) and so can we not presume he was legitimate? And if so
would we not need at least 9 1/2 months from marriage to her death? That would
put us into June 1346 at least.
Comments appreciated
Will Johnson
A narrower date of death for Margaret Bruce wife of William,
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Leo
Re: A narrower date of death for Margaret Bruce wife of Will
Dear Will,
With couples, sources should be looked for by both. Margaret Bruce only
shows Gerald Paget and Burke's Guide to the Royal Family which on page 317
(not 316) shows she married 'ante 28 September 1345' and died circa 1346.
By her husband is the better source recorded CP Volume XII/1 Page 544 and
onwards. Here is shown the marriage dispensation dated 1 December 1342, and
married between 3 August and 28 September 1345. "She died it is said in
childbirth, after 30 March 1346
The entry for their son shows born "about" 1346 they should have said _in
1346_ I think.
The other source I show for Margaret Bruce is the monumental work of Gerald
Paget about relatives and ancestors of the Prince of Wales. In Volume One
page 158 is recorded that Margaret married before 10 November 1345 and she
died between 30 March 1346 and 9 November 1347. Sadly no sources are given
in this book.
Hope this helps a little?
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 12:49 PM
Subject: A narrower date of death for Margaret Bruce wife of William, 5th
Earl Sutherland
With couples, sources should be looked for by both. Margaret Bruce only
shows Gerald Paget and Burke's Guide to the Royal Family which on page 317
(not 316) shows she married 'ante 28 September 1345' and died circa 1346.
By her husband is the better source recorded CP Volume XII/1 Page 544 and
onwards. Here is shown the marriage dispensation dated 1 December 1342, and
married between 3 August and 28 September 1345. "She died it is said in
childbirth, after 30 March 1346
The entry for their son shows born "about" 1346 they should have said _in
1346_ I think.
The other source I show for Margaret Bruce is the monumental work of Gerald
Paget about relatives and ancestors of the Prince of Wales. In Volume One
page 158 is recorded that Margaret married before 10 November 1345 and she
died between 30 March 1346 and 9 November 1347. Sadly no sources are given
in this book.
Hope this helps a little?
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 12:49 PM
Subject: A narrower date of death for Margaret Bruce wife of William, 5th
Earl Sutherland
At Leo's great database here
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... 4&tree=LEO
We see this person Margaret Bruce dau of Robert, King of Scots 1306-29
She married abt 28 Sep 1345 to William 5th Earl of Sutherland
And then she died "30 Mar 1346 / 9 Nov 1347"
However, the child of this union John, was Master of Sutherland (heir
presumptive to his father) and so can we not presume he was legitimate?
And if so
would we not need at least 9 1/2 months from marriage to her death? That
would
put us into June 1346 at least.
Comments appreciated
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: A narrower date of death for Margaret Bruce wife of Will
Scots Peerage vVIII ed Sir J Balfour Paul (Edin 1907) p325ff under
earls of Sutherland says William 5th earl "Succeeded his father on 19
July 1333 and was probably then of age. There is no evidence of his
wardship, and he almost immediately took an active part in public
life."
Re Margaret Bruce: "In 1343 or between Dec 1342 and Sept 1345 the earl
married Margaret, sister of King David Bruce and that king conferred
upon him in rapid succession considerable grants of land. On 28 Sept
1345 the spouses had a grant in free marriage of the thanage of Downie,
co. Forfar, also of the thanage of Kincardine, with castle, etc., the
thanage of Fettercairn and Kintore in the sheriffdom of Aberdeen."
(Source Sutherland Book iii12-14). This was followed on 10 Oct 1345,
by the erection of the earldom of Sutherland into a regality. On 4 Nov
1345 the King added the whole barony of Cluny in Aberdeenshire, and on
30 Mar 1346 the earl and his wife received a grant of the King's rock
or crag of Dunottar ... ."
Sounds as if the 28 Sept 1345 date could be the charter date and not
necessarily the date of their marriage, which may help your 'oven'
problem.
On p327: "The fifth earl married, first, Princess Margaret Bruce,
youngest daughter of King Robert ... they had a dispensation on 1
December 1342, as they were in the fourth degree of consanguinity, but
in a paper indulgence granted to her on 6 November 1343, a year later,
she is styled sister of the King of Scots, and not Countess of
Sutherland. Indeed, if the evidence of the charters be taken, their
marriage did not take place till 1345. The Princess is said to have
died at the birth of her only son, and this seems probable. She was
alive on 30 Mar 1346 but she was dead and her husband had married again
before November 1347."
Bit of a window here as well. The boy was a hostage for his uncle the
king in Sept 1351, and in 1357 the son and father were hostages for
payment of the king's ransom, "and remained in England for more than
ten years, visiting Scotland at intervals, marked by the granting of
various charters to relatives and others (Sutherland Book v i 35).
English records might reveal something more, eg. Cal Docs Scot (Bain)
earls of Sutherland says William 5th earl "Succeeded his father on 19
July 1333 and was probably then of age. There is no evidence of his
wardship, and he almost immediately took an active part in public
life."
Re Margaret Bruce: "In 1343 or between Dec 1342 and Sept 1345 the earl
married Margaret, sister of King David Bruce and that king conferred
upon him in rapid succession considerable grants of land. On 28 Sept
1345 the spouses had a grant in free marriage of the thanage of Downie,
co. Forfar, also of the thanage of Kincardine, with castle, etc., the
thanage of Fettercairn and Kintore in the sheriffdom of Aberdeen."
(Source Sutherland Book iii12-14). This was followed on 10 Oct 1345,
by the erection of the earldom of Sutherland into a regality. On 4 Nov
1345 the King added the whole barony of Cluny in Aberdeenshire, and on
30 Mar 1346 the earl and his wife received a grant of the King's rock
or crag of Dunottar ... ."
Sounds as if the 28 Sept 1345 date could be the charter date and not
necessarily the date of their marriage, which may help your 'oven'
problem.
On p327: "The fifth earl married, first, Princess Margaret Bruce,
youngest daughter of King Robert ... they had a dispensation on 1
December 1342, as they were in the fourth degree of consanguinity, but
in a paper indulgence granted to her on 6 November 1343, a year later,
she is styled sister of the King of Scots, and not Countess of
Sutherland. Indeed, if the evidence of the charters be taken, their
marriage did not take place till 1345. The Princess is said to have
died at the birth of her only son, and this seems probable. She was
alive on 30 Mar 1346 but she was dead and her husband had married again
before November 1347."
Bit of a window here as well. The boy was a hostage for his uncle the
king in Sept 1351, and in 1357 the son and father were hostages for
payment of the king's ransom, "and remained in England for more than
ten years, visiting Scotland at intervals, marked by the granting of
various charters to relatives and others (Sutherland Book v i 35).
English records might reveal something more, eg. Cal Docs Scot (Bain)