mother of William III de Say and a Maminot question

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mtewmiles

mother of William III de Say and a Maminot question

Legg inn av mtewmiles » 20 okt 2005 19:29:52

I've been following the discussions regarding the de Say family,
specifically the identity and reassignment of Alice (previously Maminot
and now identified as Alice de Chesney) as wife of Geoffrey I de Say
rather than his son, Geoffrey II de Say. This leaves the latter with
still likely two marriages, the second being to Marjorie de Briwere.
But I can find nothing definitive that the latter was mother of William
III de Say. I've seen dates assigned to Geoffrey II de Say (born ca
1155) and his son, William III de Say "born bef 1209." (both I believe
taken from MC Sureties). Given a seemingly roughly 50-year gap, it
would SEEM William III would be son of his father's second wife. But I
know from travails in genealogy, that things are not always what they
seem. Do we know the name of William's mother?

The Maminot connection now comes through Alice de Chesney, daughter of
John de Chesney and Emma Maminot..but I've seen her also identified as
Alice and Lettice Maminot. Is Emma now, via Keats-Rohan, the accepted
name?

Any illumination would be greatly appreciated.

mtewmiles

mtewmiles

Re: mother of William III de Say and a Maminot question

Legg inn av mtewmiles » 20 okt 2005 19:40:43

Addendum

Look before leaping; Emma Maminot was John de Chesney's mother, not his
wife....

mtewmiles

Chris Phillips

Re: mother of William III de Say and a Maminot question

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 21 okt 2005 10:35:10

mtewmiles wrote:
I've been following the discussions regarding the de Say family,
specifically the identity and reassignment of Alice (previously Maminot
and now identified as Alice de Chesney) as wife of Geoffrey I de Say
rather than his son, Geoffrey II de Say. This leaves the latter with
still likely two marriages, the second being to Marjorie de Briwere.
But I can find nothing definitive that the latter was mother of William
III de Say. I've seen dates assigned to Geoffrey II de Say (born ca
1155) and his son, William III de Say "born bef 1209." (both I believe
taken from MC Sureties). Given a seemingly roughly 50-year gap, it
would SEEM William III would be son of his father's second wife. But I
know from travails in genealogy, that things are not always what they
seem. Do we know the name of William's mother?

I've tried to summarise the revised scheme, as I understand it, here:
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/say.shtml

The birth date of c. 1155 for Geoffrey II is based on the mistaken belief
that he, not his father, had married Alice de Chesney. If he was the son,
rather than the husband, of Alice (whose first husband died c. 1175), his
birth must have been much later - say around 1180.

His son William III did homage for his lands in 1230 - hence the statement
that he was bon before 1209. Apparently this means that he must have been
the son of an unknown earlier wife of Geoffrey II, as Geoffrey's subsequent
wife Margery Briwerre was the widow of Eudes de Dammartin, who died in 1225
[CP xi 470].

The Maminot connection now comes through Alice de Chesney, daughter of
John de Chesney and Emma Maminot..but I've seen her also identified as
Alice and Lettice Maminot. Is Emma now, via Keats-Rohan, the accepted
name?

She is called Alice in the cartulary of Merton Priory [L. F. Salzman, Sussex
Arch. Coll., vol. 65, pp. 21, 22 (1924), citing British Library Cotton MS
Cleopatra C VI, no 69]. However, a document from Lewes Priory says that
John's father, Ralph, was married to an Emma, who predeceased him [Dugdale,
Monasticon Anglicanum, vol. 5, p. 14 (1817-30 edn)]. Apparently Keats-Rohan
prefers the latter.

Chris Phillips

mtewmiles

Re: mother of William III de Say and a Maminot question

Legg inn av mtewmiles » 22 okt 2005 04:13:56

Thanks very much, Chris, for these clarifications. The date revisions
do clear up my puzzlement as to the mother of William III de Say.

I am continually in awe of the talented individuals who post here.
Thanks again!

Margaret

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