C.P. Addition: Hawise de Gaunt, sister of Gilbert de Gaunt,

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Douglas Richardson

C.P. Addition: Hawise de Gaunt, sister of Gilbert de Gaunt,

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 20 okt 2005 06:02:25

Dear Newsgroup ~

Complete Peerage, 5 (1926): 626-628 (sub Gaunt) includes a good account
of the life history of Sir Gilbert de Gaunt, 2nd Lord Gaunt, who died
without issue in 1298. Following his death, an inquisition identified
his heirs as his sister, Juliane de Gaunt, and his two nephews, Roger
de Kerdeston (son of his deceased sister, Margaret) and Peter de Mauley
(son of his deceased sister, Nichole).

In a lawsuit dated Michaelmas term, 1 Edward II (1307), Gilbert de
Gaunt's three heirs, Peter de Mauley, Roger de Kerdeston, and Juliane
de Gaunt sued Joan, wife of Robert de Driby, demanding the third part
of two parts of the manor of Hunmanby, Yorkshire, with its
appurtenances, which Gilbert de Gaunt, the elder, gave to his son,
Gilbert de Gaunt the younger, and Lora his wife. On the death of
Gilbert de Gant the younger without issue [in 1298], the suit states
the following:

"the right descended to Helewise, Nichole, and Margaret and the said
Juliana, the now demandant, as to [his] sisters and heirs; and from the
said Helewise, since she died without an heir of her body, the right of
her share descended to Nichole and Margaret and the said Juliana, the
now demandant, as sisters etc.; and from the said Nichole the right of
her share descended to the said Peter, one of the now demandants, as
son and heir; and from the said Margaret the right of her share
descended to the said Roger, one of the now demandants, as son and
heir." [Reference: F.W. Maitland, ed., Year Books of Edward II, 1: A.D.
1307-1309 (Selden Soc. 17) (1903): 1-4].

The lawsuit implies that Gilbert de Gaunt was survived at his death in
1298 by four sisters, whereas he was actually survived by one sister,
Juliane, and the sons of two other sisters, Margaret and Nichole.
However, given that the sole surviving sister, Juliane de Gaunt, was
one of the demandants in the lawsuit, the record is doubtless correct
that Gilbert de Gaunt had a fourth sister named Hawise de Gaunt who
died without issue. If Hawise de Gaunt predeceased her other three
sisters as stated in the lawsuit, then she obviously died sometime
before 1284, the year of her sister, Nichole de Gaunt's death
[Reference: Complete Peerage, 5 (1926): 627, footnote d (sub Gaunt)].

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Douglas Richardson

Re: C.P. Addition: Adam de Gaunt, brother of Gilbert de Gaun

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 20 okt 2005 18:55:46

Dear Newsgroup ~

In my previous post, I gave evidence that Sir Gilbert de Gaunt, 2nd
Lord Gaunt (died 1298) had a hitherto unknown full sister named Hawise
de Gaunt who evidently predeceased him without issue. Checking
further, I've determined that Sir Gilbert de Gaunt also had a brother,
Adam de Gaunt, who survived him.

Evidence for Adam de Gaunt's existence comes from a lawsuit filed in
1298, by Sir Gilbert de Gaunt's widow, Lora de Balliol. In that year,
Lora, demanded against Adam de Gaunt four messuages, nine tofts, and
thirty bovates of land in Hunmanby, Yorkshire which she claimed to hold
for life by gift of John de Wauton. Adam de Gaunt by his attorney then
came and thereof vouched to warrant Gilbert de Gaunt's three heirs,
namely his sister, Juliane de Gaunt, and his two nephews, Roger de
Kerdeston and Peter de Mauley. In the ensuing testimony, it is
specifically stated that Lora's late husband, Gilbert de Gaunt, "gave
and granted and by his charter confirmed to Adam his brother all that
land with its appurtenances in Hunmanby and Folethorp which he
[Gilbert] bought of John de Wauton." [Reference: F.W. Maitland, Year
Books of Edward II, vol. 3: A.D. 1309-1310 (Selden Soc. 20) (1905):
79-81]. So, it is very clear that Adam de Gaunt was Gilbert de Gaunt's
brother.

We know from surviving records that Lord Gaunt's heirs at his death
were his one surviving full sister, Juliane, and the sons of his two
deceased full sisters, Margaret and Nichole. These three heirs are
persons who Adam de Gaunt vouched to warrant in the lawsuit above. In
this time period, sisters of the full blood inherited ahead of brothers
of the half-blood. Presuming Adam de Gaunt was Gilbert de Gaunt's
half-sibling, it would explain why he was barred from the Gaunt
inheritance. Adam de Gaunt's father, Gilbert de Gaunt the elder, had
his youngest child, Juliane, by his known marriage about 1258. The
elder Gilbert lived until 1274, allowing him ample time to have a
second marriage and issue by that union.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~

Complete Peerage, 5 (1926): 626-628 (sub Gaunt) includes a good account
of the life history of Sir Gilbert de Gaunt, 2nd Lord Gaunt, who died
without issue in 1298. Following his death, an inquisition identified
his heirs as his sister, Juliane de Gaunt, and his two nephews, Roger
de Kerdeston (son of his deceased sister, Margaret) and Peter de Mauley
(son of his deceased sister, Nichole).

In a lawsuit dated Michaelmas term, 1 Edward II (1307), Gilbert de
Gaunt's three heirs, Peter de Mauley, Roger de Kerdeston, and Juliane
de Gaunt sued Joan, wife of Robert de Driby, demanding the third part
of two parts of the manor of Hunmanby, Yorkshire, with its
appurtenances, which Gilbert de Gaunt, the elder, gave to his son,
Gilbert de Gaunt the younger, and Lora his wife. On the death of
Gilbert de Gant the younger without issue [in 1298], the suit states
the following:

"the right descended to Helewise, Nichole, and Margaret and the said
Juliana, the now demandant, as to [his] sisters and heirs; and from the
said Helewise, since she died without an heir of her body, the right of
her share descended to Nichole and Margaret and the said Juliana, the
now demandant, as sisters etc.; and from the said Nichole the right of
her share descended to the said Peter, one of the now demandants, as
son and heir; and from the said Margaret the right of her share
descended to the said Roger, one of the now demandants, as son and
heir." [Reference: F.W. Maitland, ed., Year Books of Edward II, 1: A.D.
1307-1309 (Selden Soc. 17) (1903): 1-4].

The lawsuit implies that Gilbert de Gaunt was survived at his death in
1298 by four sisters, whereas he was actually survived by one sister,
Juliane, and the sons of two other sisters, Margaret and Nichole.
However, given that the sole surviving sister, Juliane de Gaunt, was
one of the demandants in the lawsuit, the record is doubtless correct
that Gilbert de Gaunt had a fourth sister named Hawise de Gaunt who
died without issue. If Hawise de Gaunt predeceased her other three
sisters as stated in the lawsuit, then she obviously died sometime
before 1284, the year of her sister, Nichole de Gaunt's death
[Reference: Complete Peerage, 5 (1926): 627, footnote d (sub Gaunt)].

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: C.P. Addition: Adam de Gaunt, brother of Gilbert de Gaun

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 21 okt 2005 00:57:46

Douglas Richardson wrote:

Adam de Gaunt's father, Gilbert de Gaunt the elder, had
his youngest child, Juliane, by his known marriage about 1258. The
elder Gilbert lived until 1274, allowing him ample time to have a
second marriage and issue by that union.

If I read it right, it looks like he was holding by grant, not
inheritance, so need the union in question have been a marriage?

taf

Douglas Richardson

Re: C.P. Addition: Adam de Gaunt, brother of Gilbert de Gaun

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 21 okt 2005 17:23:46

Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
Douglas Richardson wrote:

Adam de Gaunt's father, Gilbert de Gaunt the elder, had
his youngest child, Juliane, by his known marriage about 1258. The
elder Gilbert lived until 1274, allowing him ample time to have a
second marriage and issue by that union.

If I read it right, it looks like he was holding by grant, not
inheritance, so need the union in question have been a marriage?

taf

Not necessarily. But, if he was a half-sibling, he could only obtain
by grant, not inheritance. So your point is moot.

DR

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: C.P. Addition: Adam de Gaunt, brother of Gilbert de Gaun

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 21 okt 2005 19:30:22

Douglas Richardson wrote:
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:

Douglas Richardson wrote:


Adam de Gaunt's father, Gilbert de Gaunt the elder, had
his youngest child, Juliane, by his known marriage about 1258. The
elder Gilbert lived until 1274, allowing him ample time to have a
second marriage and issue by that union.

If I read it right, it looks like he was holding by grant, not
inheritance, so need the union in question have been a marriage?

Not necessarily. But, if he was a half-sibling, he could only obtain
by grant, not inheritance. So your point is moot.

In what sense? In terms of inheritance, yes, it is purely an academic
distinction but in the paragraph above you were not talking about
inheritance - you were speculating about a second marriage with the sole
evidence for such a marriage being the existance of Adam. For exactly
the reason that a half-sibling would have had the same inheritance (i.e.
none) independent of the marital status of the parents (this, of course,
assumes the exclusion of half-siblings, which was not universally
followed), the existence of Adam is not evidence that any such second
marriage ever took place, and the issue of his (il)legitimacy directly
bears on that question.

taf

Douglas Richardson

Re: C.P. Addition: Adam de Gaunt, brother of Gilbert de Gaun

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 22 okt 2005 19:30:10

Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
In what sense? In terms of inheritance, yes.
taf

I was speaking in terms of inheritance. The failure of Adam de Gaunt
to obtain any share of the Gaunt inheritance means that he was a
half-brother to Sir Gilbert de Gaunt, 2nd Lord Gaunt (died 1298), be it
legitimate half-brother, or illegitimate half-brother.

The given name Adam is a bit rare. Adam de Gaunt's given name well
might come from the baronial Welle(s) family of Lincolnshire. Below,
for example, is a grant issued by Gilbert de Gaunt's full sister,
Juliane de Gaunt, to Adam de Welle, in the period, 1307-1308:

Source: National Archives Catalogue
(http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.g ... ch.asp?j=1).

C 143/67/7

Covering dates 1 Edward II [1307-1308].

Scope and content
Juliana de Gaunt to grant land in Well and Mawthorpe [recte Manthorpe],
Lincolnshire to Adam de Welle, retaining land there. END OF QUOTE.

Adam de Welle in the record above is presumably Sir Adam de Welle(s),
1st Lord Welles (died 1311). He is thought to have had two sisters,
Cecily and Aline, who died unmarried. Either sister would be a
suitable candidate to be the second wife or mistress of Sir Gilbert de
Gaunt, 1st Lord Gaunt (died 1274).

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Douglas Richardson

Re: C.P. Addition: Adam de Gaunt, brother of Gilbert de Gaun

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 22 okt 2005 19:36:46

Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
In what sense? In terms of inheritance, yes.
taf

I was speaking in terms of inheritance. The failure of Adam de Gaunt
to obtain any share of the Gaunt inheritance means that he was a
half-brother to Sir Gilbert de Gaunt, 2nd Lord Gaunt (died 1298), be it
legitimate half-brother, or illegitimate half-brother.

The given name Adam is a bit rare. Adam de Gaunt's given name might
well come from the baronial Welle(s) family of Lincolnshire. Below,
for example, is a grant issued by Gilbert de Gaunt's full sister,
Juliane de Gaunt, to Adam de Welle, in the period, 1307-1308:

Source: National Archives Catalogue
(http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.g ... ch.asp?j=1).

C 143/67/7

Covering dates 1 Edward II [1307-1308].

Scope and content
Juliana de Gaunt to grant land in Well and Mawthorpe [recte Manthorpe],
Lincolnshire to Adam de Welle, retaining land there. END OF QUOTE.

Adam de Welle in the record above is presumably Sir Adam de Welle(s),
1st Lord Welles (died 1311). He is thought to have had two sisters,
Cecily and Aline, who died unmarried. Either sister would be a
suitable candidate to be the second wife or mistress of Sir Gilbert de
Gaunt, 1st Lord Gaunt (died 1274).

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

R. Battle

Re: C.P. Addition: Adam de Gaunt, brother of Gilbert de Gaun

Legg inn av R. Battle » 22 okt 2005 20:57:53

On Sat, 22 Oct 2005, Douglas Richardson wrote:

<snip>
Adam de Welle in the record above is presumably Sir Adam de Welle(s),
1st Lord Welles (died 1311). He is thought to have had two sisters,
Cecily and Aline, who died unmarried. Either sister would be a
suitable candidate to be the second wife or mistress of Sir Gilbert de
Gaunt, 1st Lord Gaunt (died 1274).
snip


There appear to be two problems with this possible identification: (1) if
both sisters died unmarried it is rather unlikely that either married Sir
Gilbert; and (2) if Sir Gilbert had a mistress rather than a second wife
there is no reason to restrict the available pool of candidates to women
of his own social stratum (it may in fact be more likely that the woman
was of lower rank).

-Robert Battle

Douglas Richardson

Re: C.P. Addition: Adam de Gaunt, brother of Gilbert de Gaun

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 22 okt 2005 21:33:28

Dear Robert ~

Thank you for your good post.

I don't have the particulars in front of me which indicates the
evidence (if any) that that Adam de Welle(s)' sisters, Cecily and
Aline, died unmarried. The statement "died unmarried" may simply be
derived from the unfounded conclusions of a modern antiquarian, much
like Banks who this past I proved was in error when he stated that
Alice de Armenters' mother was the daughter of Sir Peter Picot.
Statements like "died unmarried" always need independant verification.

For now we have one new full sister, Hawise de Gaunt, for Sir Gilbert
de Gant, 2nd Lord Gaunt, and one new half-sibling, Adam de Gaunt. This
is based on contemporary evidence, not an antiquarian's statements. So
we're headed in the right direction.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

R. Battle wrote:
On Sat, 22 Oct 2005, Douglas Richardson wrote:

snip
Adam de Welle in the record above is presumably Sir Adam de Welle(s),
1st Lord Welles (died 1311). He is thought to have had two sisters,
Cecily and Aline, who died unmarried. Either sister would be a
suitable candidate to be the second wife or mistress of Sir Gilbert de
Gaunt, 1st Lord Gaunt (died 1274).
snip

There appear to be two problems with this possible identification: (1) if
both sisters died unmarried it is rather unlikely that either married Sir
Gilbert; and (2) if Sir Gilbert had a mistress rather than a second wife
there is no reason to restrict the available pool of candidates to women
of his own social stratum (it may in fact be more likely that the woman
was of lower rank).

-Robert Battle

R. Battle

Re: C.P. Addition: Adam de Gaunt, brother of Gilbert de Gaun

Legg inn av R. Battle » 22 okt 2005 22:10:07

On Sat, 22 Oct 2005, Douglas Richardson wrote:

<snip>
For now we have one new full sister, Hawise de Gaunt, for Sir Gilbert
de Gant, 2nd Lord Gaunt, and one new half-sibling, Adam de Gaunt. This
is based on contemporary evidence, not an antiquarian's statements. So
we're headed in the right direction.
snip


Right. We know that Adam was a half-brother, but until we know whether he
was legitimate or illegitimate it probably isn't a good idea to speculate
publically as to the background of his mother (these things have a way of
ending up as a "fact" in someone's database and then spreading).

-Robert Battle

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