A redating for Elizabeth le Scrope d 1430, wife of Thomas Cl
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Gjest
A redating for Elizabeth le Scrope d 1430, wife of Thomas Cl
We see in Leo's fabulous website here
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... 0&tree=LEO
That Elizabeth le Scrope is said b 1395 and sourced
"The Royal Descents of 600 Immigrants to the American Colonies of the United,
States; Baltimore, 2004, Roberts, Gary Boyd, Reference: 346"
Now I shall show that her birth is too late.
1) We know that she is mother to Margaret Clarell who m1 John FitzWilliam of
Sprotborough, per the last post Douglas made here.
2) We know this marriage was contracted 19 Jan 1410 and that her husband died
in 1421 after they had three children.
The latest child could have been born no later than 1422 and we might be able
to say 1421 if we had an exact date for when John died at Rouen or when he
left England.
Thus the three children must have been born between 1410 and 1422 indicating
at least one of them was born as early as 1419.
Allowing Margaret Clarell and her mother to both be at least 13 at the birth
of their first child only gives us a *latest* possible birth for Elizabeth le
Scrope at 1393.
The idea that two mothers in a row would both be 13 is not particularly
appealing to my logic, but at least we can see that the received birthyear for
Elizabeth must be wrong.
Chucking it out the window we can now proceed as follows
1) Her maternal grandparents were born in the 1330s and in particular
Elizabeth, Countess of Atholl cannot be born earlier than 1332. She was a "younger
daughter" of a couple where the mother is known to have been born 21 Mar 1317/8
2) Elizabeth of Strathbogie's father David, 12th Earl of Atholl died 10 Oct
1369.
This establishes a 28 year range into which Elizabeth of Strathbogie could
have been born, that is 1342/70
Elizabeth le Scrope, her daughter, herself had a daughter Elizabeth Clarell
who died in 1503. I would suggest that this daughter Elizabeth Clarell was
not over 100 so we can probably safely give Elizabeth le Scrope a birth range of
1370/93
Will Johnson
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... 0&tree=LEO
That Elizabeth le Scrope is said b 1395 and sourced
"The Royal Descents of 600 Immigrants to the American Colonies of the United,
States; Baltimore, 2004, Roberts, Gary Boyd, Reference: 346"
Now I shall show that her birth is too late.
1) We know that she is mother to Margaret Clarell who m1 John FitzWilliam of
Sprotborough, per the last post Douglas made here.
2) We know this marriage was contracted 19 Jan 1410 and that her husband died
in 1421 after they had three children.
The latest child could have been born no later than 1422 and we might be able
to say 1421 if we had an exact date for when John died at Rouen or when he
left England.
Thus the three children must have been born between 1410 and 1422 indicating
at least one of them was born as early as 1419.
Allowing Margaret Clarell and her mother to both be at least 13 at the birth
of their first child only gives us a *latest* possible birth for Elizabeth le
Scrope at 1393.
The idea that two mothers in a row would both be 13 is not particularly
appealing to my logic, but at least we can see that the received birthyear for
Elizabeth must be wrong.
Chucking it out the window we can now proceed as follows
1) Her maternal grandparents were born in the 1330s and in particular
Elizabeth, Countess of Atholl cannot be born earlier than 1332. She was a "younger
daughter" of a couple where the mother is known to have been born 21 Mar 1317/8
2) Elizabeth of Strathbogie's father David, 12th Earl of Atholl died 10 Oct
1369.
This establishes a 28 year range into which Elizabeth of Strathbogie could
have been born, that is 1342/70
Elizabeth le Scrope, her daughter, herself had a daughter Elizabeth Clarell
who died in 1503. I would suggest that this daughter Elizabeth Clarell was
not over 100 so we can probably safely give Elizabeth le Scrope a birth range of
1370/93
Will Johnson
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: A redating for Elizabeth le Scrope d 1430, wife of Thoma
Dear Will ~
I recommend that you and Leo get a copy of my book, Magna Carta
Ancestry (2005). My book shows that Margaret Clarell (wife
successively of John Fitz William, Robert Waterton, and William
Gascoigne), was the sister-in-law, not daughter of Elizabeth le Scrope.
Leo's website has Margaret assigned to the wrong parentage. Leo is
also missing Margaret's first two marriages.
For interest's sake, I've copied below the correct set of parents for
Margaret Clarell.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
Source: Magna Carta Ancestry (2005), pp. 202-203:
7. THOMAS CLARELL, Esq., of Aldwark, Newton upon Derwent, Penistone,
Stiveton (in Sherburn), etc., Yorkshire, son and heir, adult by 1389.
He married MAUD MONTGOMERY, daughter of Nicholas Montomgery, Knt, of
Cubley and Marston Montgomery, Derbyshire. They had three sons,
Thomas, Esq., John, Esq., and Robert, and two daughters, Elizabeth and
Margaret. In 1400 he took a release of a croft in Tickhill, Yorkshire
from Thomas Johnson, of Wadworth. THOMAS CLARELL, Esq., left a will
dated 20 Nov. 1441, proved 20 June 1442, requesting burial in the
Austin Friars at Tickhill, Yorkshire. His widow, Maud, died shortly
before 17 March 1456/7, when administration on her estate was granted
to her son John Clarell, Esq., of Marshburgh Hall.
References:
Hunter, South Yorkshire 2 (1831): 51-56 (Fitzwilliam Family Kalendar:
"Maii. Kal. Obitus Thomæ Clarell et Matildis uxoris suæ").
Testamenta Eboracensia 3 (Surtees Soc. 45) (1865): 247, 272; 4 (Surtees
Soc. 53) (1869): 209-212 (Will of Elizabeth Fitzwilliam (née
Clarell) dated 1502 names her grandfather, Thomas Clarell, senior).
Foster, Peds. of Fams. of Yorkshire 1(1) (1874): Clarell pedigree.
Madan, Gresleys of Drakelowe (Colls. Hist. Staffs. n.s. 1) (1898): 245
(Clarell pedigree). Misc. Gen. & Heraldica 4th Ser. 4 (1912): 66-70
(Clarell pedigree: "Thomas Clarell of Aldwarke Esquyer, [1[ = Maude
Daughter of Nicolas Mongomery Knight, [2] = Elenor Dr of Roger of
Aisford."). Desc. Cat. of Ancient Deeds 6 (1915): 235. Harvey et
al., Vis. of the North 3 (Surtees Soc. 144) (1930): 65-67 (Scrope
pedigree: "Thomas Clarell armiger = Matildis filia domini Nicholai de
Mongomebry"). Yorkshire Deeds 6 (Yorkshire Arch. Soc. Recs. 76)
(1930): 15-18, 27, 154; 8 (Yorkshire Arch. Soc. Recs. 102) (1940):
20; 10 (Yorkshire Arch. Soc. Recs. 120) (1955): 62-63. Foljambe of
Osberton: Deeds and Estate Papers, Reference: DD/FJ/13/3/4, Exchange
dated 29 Sept. 1437 between Thomas Clarell, snr., esq. Thomas Clarell,
jr., and Thomas Momforthe of Kilnhirste re. lands in Kilnhirst and
Swinton (abstract of document available online at
http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp).
Children of Thomas Clarell, Esq., by Maud Montgomery:
i. THOMAS CLARELL, Esq. [see next].
ii. ELIZABETH CLARELL, married JOHN GRESLEY, Knt., of Drakelow,
Derbyshire [see GRESLEY 8].
iii. MARGARET CLARELL, married (1st) JOHN FITZWILLIAM, of Sprotborough,
Yorkshire and Plumtree, Nottinghamshire; (2nd) ROBERT WATERTON, Knt.,
of Methley, Yorkshire; (3rd) WILLIAM GASCOIGNE, Knt., of Gawthorpe,
Thorp Arch, etc., Yorkshire.
I recommend that you and Leo get a copy of my book, Magna Carta
Ancestry (2005). My book shows that Margaret Clarell (wife
successively of John Fitz William, Robert Waterton, and William
Gascoigne), was the sister-in-law, not daughter of Elizabeth le Scrope.
Leo's website has Margaret assigned to the wrong parentage. Leo is
also missing Margaret's first two marriages.
For interest's sake, I've copied below the correct set of parents for
Margaret Clarell.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
Source: Magna Carta Ancestry (2005), pp. 202-203:
7. THOMAS CLARELL, Esq., of Aldwark, Newton upon Derwent, Penistone,
Stiveton (in Sherburn), etc., Yorkshire, son and heir, adult by 1389.
He married MAUD MONTGOMERY, daughter of Nicholas Montomgery, Knt, of
Cubley and Marston Montgomery, Derbyshire. They had three sons,
Thomas, Esq., John, Esq., and Robert, and two daughters, Elizabeth and
Margaret. In 1400 he took a release of a croft in Tickhill, Yorkshire
from Thomas Johnson, of Wadworth. THOMAS CLARELL, Esq., left a will
dated 20 Nov. 1441, proved 20 June 1442, requesting burial in the
Austin Friars at Tickhill, Yorkshire. His widow, Maud, died shortly
before 17 March 1456/7, when administration on her estate was granted
to her son John Clarell, Esq., of Marshburgh Hall.
References:
Hunter, South Yorkshire 2 (1831): 51-56 (Fitzwilliam Family Kalendar:
"Maii. Kal. Obitus Thomæ Clarell et Matildis uxoris suæ").
Testamenta Eboracensia 3 (Surtees Soc. 45) (1865): 247, 272; 4 (Surtees
Soc. 53) (1869): 209-212 (Will of Elizabeth Fitzwilliam (née
Clarell) dated 1502 names her grandfather, Thomas Clarell, senior).
Foster, Peds. of Fams. of Yorkshire 1(1) (1874): Clarell pedigree.
Madan, Gresleys of Drakelowe (Colls. Hist. Staffs. n.s. 1) (1898): 245
(Clarell pedigree). Misc. Gen. & Heraldica 4th Ser. 4 (1912): 66-70
(Clarell pedigree: "Thomas Clarell of Aldwarke Esquyer, [1[ = Maude
Daughter of Nicolas Mongomery Knight, [2] = Elenor Dr of Roger of
Aisford."). Desc. Cat. of Ancient Deeds 6 (1915): 235. Harvey et
al., Vis. of the North 3 (Surtees Soc. 144) (1930): 65-67 (Scrope
pedigree: "Thomas Clarell armiger = Matildis filia domini Nicholai de
Mongomebry"). Yorkshire Deeds 6 (Yorkshire Arch. Soc. Recs. 76)
(1930): 15-18, 27, 154; 8 (Yorkshire Arch. Soc. Recs. 102) (1940):
20; 10 (Yorkshire Arch. Soc. Recs. 120) (1955): 62-63. Foljambe of
Osberton: Deeds and Estate Papers, Reference: DD/FJ/13/3/4, Exchange
dated 29 Sept. 1437 between Thomas Clarell, snr., esq. Thomas Clarell,
jr., and Thomas Momforthe of Kilnhirste re. lands in Kilnhirst and
Swinton (abstract of document available online at
http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp).
Children of Thomas Clarell, Esq., by Maud Montgomery:
i. THOMAS CLARELL, Esq. [see next].
ii. ELIZABETH CLARELL, married JOHN GRESLEY, Knt., of Drakelow,
Derbyshire [see GRESLEY 8].
iii. MARGARET CLARELL, married (1st) JOHN FITZWILLIAM, of Sprotborough,
Yorkshire and Plumtree, Nottinghamshire; (2nd) ROBERT WATERTON, Knt.,
of Methley, Yorkshire; (3rd) WILLIAM GASCOIGNE, Knt., of Gawthorpe,
Thorp Arch, etc., Yorkshire.
-
Brad Verity
Re: A redating for Elizabeth le Scrope d 1430, wife of Thoma
Dear Will,
Comments interspersed.
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
Not sure where the birthdate of 1395 comes from, but it certainly falls
within the range of 1388-1405 for the birth of the two Scrope
daughters, Elizabeth and Joan. Elizabeth de Strathbogie was married to
second husband Sir John le Scrope by September 1388. Her first
husband, Sir Thomas Percy, 2nd son of the 1st Earl of Northumberland,
died in Spain while on campaign with John of Gaunt in 1387/8. Sir John
le Scrope died in Dec. 1405, less than five days after making his will
on the 18th. Scrope's will is printed in 'Testamenta Eboracensia',
Vol. 1, and I hope to get a copy of it. If there were IPMs following
Scrope's death, those would provide his daughters' ages.
The mother of Margaret Clarell was Maud Montgomery (d. 1457).
Elizabeth Scrope's husband Thomas Clarell was the son of Maud
Montogomery and the brother, not the father, of Margaret. As their
father was also named Thomas Clarell, and outlived his son and heir,
that probably led to the confusion.
[snip]
Isabel de Verdun was born 21 Mar. 1317, at Amesbury Priory in
Wiltshire. Her marriage to Henry Ferrers took place in 1327, and their
first child, daughter Philippa, was born in Feb./Mar. 1331, when Isabel
was just turning 14. Philippa was followed by son and heir William
Ferrers in February 1333. Youngest child Elizabeth was born by 1341,
when she first appears in the accounts of her grandmother the Lady of
Clare. As her marriage was arranged in 1342, she likely was born
before 1340, probably in the mid-1330s.
Yes.
Elizabeth de Strathbogie was born on 5 Mar. 1361 at Gainsborough,
Lincolnshire, per her proof of age taken in May 1376. Philippa de
Strathbogie was born on 21 Mar. 1362 at Gainsborough, per her proof of
age taken in Mar. 1377.
After the earl of Atholl's death in 1369, the marriages of his
daughters and heiresses was bought by Henry, Lord Percy (later earl of
Northumberland) for £760. Percy married Elizabeth to his second son
Thomas, and Philippa to his third and youngest son Ralph. Through a
series of entails, Percy ensured that after the deaths of Elizabeth and
Philippa, their shares of Atholl inheritance would be left entirely to
their issue by their Percy husbands, disregarding any offspring from
subsequent marriages.
Philippa's childless marriage to Sir Ralph Percy was a disaster on a
personal level, and ended in an annulment or divorce by 1383/4 (her
eldest child by her second husband was said to be age 11 or 10 in Nov.
1395). She then married Sir John Halsham (d. 16 Apr. 1415), of Coombs,
Sussex, and had three sons - John, Hugh and Richard. She died on 1
Nov. 1395. Sir Ralph Percy never married again and died in Palestine
(on a pilgrimage?) 15 Sep. 1397.
Elizabeth's marriage to Sir Thomas Percy seems to have been a better
success. They had one son, Sir Henry Percy of Atholl (who eventually
became his mother's sole heir), before Thomas Percy's 1387/8 death.
Elizabeth de Strathbogie then married Sir John le Scrope, had two
daughters by him before his Dec. 1405 death. Her third husband was
Robert de Thorley, esquire, of Brunhalle, Middlesex, treasurer of
Calais 1402-1412. Elizabeth de Strathbogie died in 1416, before 10
Sep. when the writ of diem clausit extremum was issued. In 1417 &
1418, her son Sir Henry Percy of Atholl worked out an arrangement with
his stepfather Robert de Thorley for the latter to hold the manor of
Dunham, Nottinghamshire, for life. The rest of Elizabeth's share of
the Atholl inheritance was entailed in 1418 by Sir Henry to allow for
his two Scrope half-sisters and their issue to be able to inherit,
should he leave no issue at death. Robert de Thorley died in the first
half of 1420, and a levy of his goods and debts was commissioned on 20
July that year. It's unlikely he was the Robert de Thorley of Tybeste,
Cornwall, who married Amy Lisle and left a sole daughter and heir,
Margaret Thorley, who married Reginald West, Lord de la Warr. Rather
he appears to have hailed from the North, as one of the administrators
of his goods was his kinsman Sir Nicholas Thorley (who, the following
year, married Alice [Sergeaux], the widowed countess of Oxford), son of
John Thorley, esquire, of Usflete, Yorkshire.
Elizabeth le Scrope was married in 9 Henry IV (1407-08) to Thomas
Clarell of Aldwark (born 1394, died 6 Feb. 1430) and died 8 Mar. 1430.
I foolishly did not cite my source for this (it was several years ago),
but it may have been Collins' Peerage. They had three daughters -
Elizabeth, Maud and Agnes (or Alice). Maud Clarell married the son and
heir of Sir Robert Ughtred, and died without issue. Agnes Clarell
became a nun, was confirmed prioress of Hampole in Yorkshire in 1452,
and died at some point before 1483, when the subsequent prioress
resigned.
Elizabeth Clarell became the sole heiress to the Clarell estates. She
was born about 1415/6, as she was found to be age 15 in 9 Henry VI
(1430-31). She was married to Sir Richard Fitzwilliam, son and heir of
Sir Edmund Fitzwilliam, of Wadworth, Yorkshire. He died 22 Sep. 1479,
and she died 12 May 1503. Their wills are printed in the Testamenta
Eboracensia series.
Elizabeth Clarell is 7th in an unbroken female-to-female line
descendant of Edward I:
Edward I
Joan of Acre, Countess of Gloucester
Elizabeth de Clare, Lady of Clare
Isabel de Verdun, Lady Ferrers of Groby
Elizabeth Ferrers, Countess of Atholl
Elizabeth de Strathbogie, Lady Percy of Atholl
Elizabeth Scrope, Dame Clarell
Elizabeth Clarell, Dame Fitzwilliam
least the early 18th century.
Cheers, ------Brad
Comments interspersed.
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
We see in Leo's fabulous website here
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... 0&tree=LEO
That Elizabeth le Scrope is said b 1395 and sourced
"The Royal Descents of 600 Immigrants to the American Colonies of the United,
States; Baltimore, 2004, Roberts, Gary Boyd, Reference: 346"
Not sure where the birthdate of 1395 comes from, but it certainly falls
within the range of 1388-1405 for the birth of the two Scrope
daughters, Elizabeth and Joan. Elizabeth de Strathbogie was married to
second husband Sir John le Scrope by September 1388. Her first
husband, Sir Thomas Percy, 2nd son of the 1st Earl of Northumberland,
died in Spain while on campaign with John of Gaunt in 1387/8. Sir John
le Scrope died in Dec. 1405, less than five days after making his will
on the 18th. Scrope's will is printed in 'Testamenta Eboracensia',
Vol. 1, and I hope to get a copy of it. If there were IPMs following
Scrope's death, those would provide his daughters' ages.
Now I shall show that her birth is too late.
1) We know that she is mother to Margaret Clarell who m1 John FitzWilliam of
Sprotborough, per the last post Douglas made here.
2) We know this marriage was contracted 19 Jan 1410 and that her husband died
in 1421 after they had three children.
The mother of Margaret Clarell was Maud Montgomery (d. 1457).
Elizabeth Scrope's husband Thomas Clarell was the son of Maud
Montogomery and the brother, not the father, of Margaret. As their
father was also named Thomas Clarell, and outlived his son and heir,
that probably led to the confusion.
[snip]
Chucking it out the window we can now proceed as follows
1) Her maternal grandparents were born in the 1330s and in particular
Elizabeth, Countess of Atholl cannot be born earlier than 1332. She was a "younger
daughter" of a couple where the mother is known to have been born 21 Mar 1317/8
Isabel de Verdun was born 21 Mar. 1317, at Amesbury Priory in
Wiltshire. Her marriage to Henry Ferrers took place in 1327, and their
first child, daughter Philippa, was born in Feb./Mar. 1331, when Isabel
was just turning 14. Philippa was followed by son and heir William
Ferrers in February 1333. Youngest child Elizabeth was born by 1341,
when she first appears in the accounts of her grandmother the Lady of
Clare. As her marriage was arranged in 1342, she likely was born
before 1340, probably in the mid-1330s.
2) Elizabeth of Strathbogie's father David, 12th Earl of Atholl died 10 Oct
1369.
Yes.
This establishes a 28 year range into which Elizabeth of Strathbogie could
have been born, that is 1342/70
Elizabeth de Strathbogie was born on 5 Mar. 1361 at Gainsborough,
Lincolnshire, per her proof of age taken in May 1376. Philippa de
Strathbogie was born on 21 Mar. 1362 at Gainsborough, per her proof of
age taken in Mar. 1377.
After the earl of Atholl's death in 1369, the marriages of his
daughters and heiresses was bought by Henry, Lord Percy (later earl of
Northumberland) for £760. Percy married Elizabeth to his second son
Thomas, and Philippa to his third and youngest son Ralph. Through a
series of entails, Percy ensured that after the deaths of Elizabeth and
Philippa, their shares of Atholl inheritance would be left entirely to
their issue by their Percy husbands, disregarding any offspring from
subsequent marriages.
Philippa's childless marriage to Sir Ralph Percy was a disaster on a
personal level, and ended in an annulment or divorce by 1383/4 (her
eldest child by her second husband was said to be age 11 or 10 in Nov.
1395). She then married Sir John Halsham (d. 16 Apr. 1415), of Coombs,
Sussex, and had three sons - John, Hugh and Richard. She died on 1
Nov. 1395. Sir Ralph Percy never married again and died in Palestine
(on a pilgrimage?) 15 Sep. 1397.
Elizabeth's marriage to Sir Thomas Percy seems to have been a better
success. They had one son, Sir Henry Percy of Atholl (who eventually
became his mother's sole heir), before Thomas Percy's 1387/8 death.
Elizabeth de Strathbogie then married Sir John le Scrope, had two
daughters by him before his Dec. 1405 death. Her third husband was
Robert de Thorley, esquire, of Brunhalle, Middlesex, treasurer of
Calais 1402-1412. Elizabeth de Strathbogie died in 1416, before 10
Sep. when the writ of diem clausit extremum was issued. In 1417 &
1418, her son Sir Henry Percy of Atholl worked out an arrangement with
his stepfather Robert de Thorley for the latter to hold the manor of
Dunham, Nottinghamshire, for life. The rest of Elizabeth's share of
the Atholl inheritance was entailed in 1418 by Sir Henry to allow for
his two Scrope half-sisters and their issue to be able to inherit,
should he leave no issue at death. Robert de Thorley died in the first
half of 1420, and a levy of his goods and debts was commissioned on 20
July that year. It's unlikely he was the Robert de Thorley of Tybeste,
Cornwall, who married Amy Lisle and left a sole daughter and heir,
Margaret Thorley, who married Reginald West, Lord de la Warr. Rather
he appears to have hailed from the North, as one of the administrators
of his goods was his kinsman Sir Nicholas Thorley (who, the following
year, married Alice [Sergeaux], the widowed countess of Oxford), son of
John Thorley, esquire, of Usflete, Yorkshire.
Elizabeth le Scrope, her daughter, herself had a daughter Elizabeth Clarell
who died in 1503.
Elizabeth le Scrope was married in 9 Henry IV (1407-08) to Thomas
Clarell of Aldwark (born 1394, died 6 Feb. 1430) and died 8 Mar. 1430.
I foolishly did not cite my source for this (it was several years ago),
but it may have been Collins' Peerage. They had three daughters -
Elizabeth, Maud and Agnes (or Alice). Maud Clarell married the son and
heir of Sir Robert Ughtred, and died without issue. Agnes Clarell
became a nun, was confirmed prioress of Hampole in Yorkshire in 1452,
and died at some point before 1483, when the subsequent prioress
resigned.
Elizabeth Clarell became the sole heiress to the Clarell estates. She
was born about 1415/6, as she was found to be age 15 in 9 Henry VI
(1430-31). She was married to Sir Richard Fitzwilliam, son and heir of
Sir Edmund Fitzwilliam, of Wadworth, Yorkshire. He died 22 Sep. 1479,
and she died 12 May 1503. Their wills are printed in the Testamenta
Eboracensia series.
Elizabeth Clarell is 7th in an unbroken female-to-female line
descendant of Edward I:
Edward I
Joan of Acre, Countess of Gloucester
Elizabeth de Clare, Lady of Clare
Isabel de Verdun, Lady Ferrers of Groby
Elizabeth Ferrers, Countess of Atholl
Elizabeth de Strathbogie, Lady Percy of Atholl
Elizabeth Scrope, Dame Clarell
Elizabeth Clarell, Dame Fitzwilliam
From at least one of her daughters - Margaret Fitzwilliam, wife of
Ralph Reresby - the female-to-female descent continues unbroken to at
least the early 18th century.
Cheers, ------Brad
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: A redating for Elizabeth le Scrope d 1430, wife of Thoma
Nice post, Brad. I do have one addition to your Clarell material.
You stated:
Elizabeth Scrope actually survived her husband, Thomas Clarell, Esq.,
and married (2nd) John Pillyngton. She was living 18 July 1455, as
indicated in the document below from the helpful online A2A catalogue.
"Matilda, late wife of Thomas Clarell," also named in the document
below was Elizabeth Scrope's widowed mother-in-law, Maud (Montgomery)
Clarell.
For further information on the Clarell and Scrope families, please see
Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry (2005): 25-27, 201-204.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Nottinghamshire Archives: Foljambe of Osberton: Deeds and Estate
Papers, Reference: DD/FJ/4/38/2
Creation dates: 18 July 1455
Language: Latin
Scope and Content
Defeasance of demise.
1) Edmund Fitzwilliam, esq., and feoffees:-
John Wehetley, rector of Plumtre.
Thos. Fitzwilliam, rector of Sprotburgh, etc.
2) Rob. Nevyll, esq.
Wm. Skargill, jun., and others.
Demise of (1) and father Edmund F. of premises in Waddeworth and Bilham
to be void if Rich. Fitzwilliam and wife make estate to (2) of either
manor of Steton and lands there and in Milford worth £13 6s 8d p.a.
6 months after death of Matilda late wife of Thos. Clarell; or of manor
of Haldenby worth £13 6s 8d p.a.
6 months after death of Eliz. wife of John Pillyngton and late wife of
Thos. Clarell. On condition that (2) within 6 months after 7 years
settle same on Thos. Fitzwilliam and Johanna d. of Wm. Mirfeld if they
marry, or to Johanna for life with remainder to Eliz. wife of Richard
Fitzwilliam.
Witn.: Rob. Drax, Thurstan Banastre, John Fitzwilliam, etc.
33 Hen. VI.
3 seals.
You stated:
Elizabeth le Scrope was married in 9 Henry IV (1407-08) to Thomas
Clarell of Aldwark (born 1394, died 6 Feb. 1430) and died 8 Mar. 1430.
Elizabeth Scrope actually survived her husband, Thomas Clarell, Esq.,
and married (2nd) John Pillyngton. She was living 18 July 1455, as
indicated in the document below from the helpful online A2A catalogue.
"Matilda, late wife of Thomas Clarell," also named in the document
below was Elizabeth Scrope's widowed mother-in-law, Maud (Montgomery)
Clarell.
For further information on the Clarell and Scrope families, please see
Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry (2005): 25-27, 201-204.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Nottinghamshire Archives: Foljambe of Osberton: Deeds and Estate
Papers, Reference: DD/FJ/4/38/2
Creation dates: 18 July 1455
Language: Latin
Scope and Content
Defeasance of demise.
1) Edmund Fitzwilliam, esq., and feoffees:-
John Wehetley, rector of Plumtre.
Thos. Fitzwilliam, rector of Sprotburgh, etc.
2) Rob. Nevyll, esq.
Wm. Skargill, jun., and others.
Demise of (1) and father Edmund F. of premises in Waddeworth and Bilham
to be void if Rich. Fitzwilliam and wife make estate to (2) of either
manor of Steton and lands there and in Milford worth £13 6s 8d p.a.
6 months after death of Matilda late wife of Thos. Clarell; or of manor
of Haldenby worth £13 6s 8d p.a.
6 months after death of Eliz. wife of John Pillyngton and late wife of
Thos. Clarell. On condition that (2) within 6 months after 7 years
settle same on Thos. Fitzwilliam and Johanna d. of Wm. Mirfeld if they
marry, or to Johanna for life with remainder to Eliz. wife of Richard
Fitzwilliam.
Witn.: Rob. Drax, Thurstan Banastre, John Fitzwilliam, etc.
33 Hen. VI.
3 seals.
-
Gjest
Re: A redating for Elizabeth le Scrope d 1430, wife of Thoma
Further on this line, working forward in time, with my eye open for a tight
funnel, I come across this one.
Sir William Gascoigne, Knt of Gawthorpe, York
I have already shown had to be born between 1447 and 1451.
He died 12 Mar 1486/7
He had, by his wife Margaret Percy, a daughter Dorothy who married Ninian
Markenfield and had a daughter Alice before Dorothy herself died 4 Mar 1485/6
(some databases show 1487 but the 1485/6 date is sourced to Weis although I have
not checked this).
This is a very small funnel. Allowing William Gascoigne to be at least 17 at
the birth of his daughter Dorothy means she was born at the earliest in 1464.
Allowing her to be at least 13 at the birth of her daughter Alice
Markenfield, means Alice had to be born between 1477 and 1485/6 when her mother Dorothy
died.
Alice Markenfield married Robert Mauleverer in 1524. She would have been at
least 38 years old at this marriage !! That also implies that the daughter
off this latter marriage, one Dorothy Mauleverer had to be born between 1524 and
1534 when her mother Alice would have been a minimum of 48 years old.
I'm a bit suspicious about this line, now that I've found this. I tried to
look in A2A for Mauleverer and Markenfield but didn't come up with anything
useful.
Comments appreciated.
Will Johnson
funnel, I come across this one.
Sir William Gascoigne, Knt of Gawthorpe, York
I have already shown had to be born between 1447 and 1451.
He died 12 Mar 1486/7
He had, by his wife Margaret Percy, a daughter Dorothy who married Ninian
Markenfield and had a daughter Alice before Dorothy herself died 4 Mar 1485/6
(some databases show 1487 but the 1485/6 date is sourced to Weis although I have
not checked this).
This is a very small funnel. Allowing William Gascoigne to be at least 17 at
the birth of his daughter Dorothy means she was born at the earliest in 1464.
Allowing her to be at least 13 at the birth of her daughter Alice
Markenfield, means Alice had to be born between 1477 and 1485/6 when her mother Dorothy
died.
Alice Markenfield married Robert Mauleverer in 1524. She would have been at
least 38 years old at this marriage !! That also implies that the daughter
off this latter marriage, one Dorothy Mauleverer had to be born between 1524 and
1534 when her mother Alice would have been a minimum of 48 years old.
I'm a bit suspicious about this line, now that I've found this. I tried to
look in A2A for Mauleverer and Markenfield but didn't come up with anything
useful.
Comments appreciated.
Will Johnson
-
Brad Verity
Re: A redating for Elizabeth le Scrope d 1430, wife of Thoma
Douglas,
Thanks for the reminder about the 1455 Fitzwilliam demise. Comments
interspersed.
Douglas Richardson wrote:
At the time we discussed this possibility on the newsgroup, back in
Sep. 2003, I had written:
I still haven't resolved whether the Elizabeth, widow of Thomas
Clarell, who was alive in 1455 was his first (and only) wife, Elizabeth
Scrope, or was a second wife, also named Elizabeth.
I want to verify what the original source is for the very specific date
of 8 Mar. 1430 for the death of Elizabeth Scrope, Dame Clarell. I
hesitate to discard it completely, as there is also the age of 15 in
1430-31 that is provided for her daughter Elizabeth Clarell. That may
have come from some kind of inquisition taken in that year, which
matches the 1430 death date provided for her mother.
I have my doubts about Elizabeth Clarell, wife of Sir Richard
Fitzwilliam, being age 15 in 1430-31, as that would make her age 87/88
at her 1503 death. Not impossible, but very unusual.
The good news is that I realize the source for the Scrope/Clarell dates
I had jotted down was probably Foster's Yorkshire Pedigrees, which I
had only ever seen in the library of Scarborough, Yorkshire. If anyone
has access to this book, and can look up the Clarell pedigree and
report back, I would be very grateful. Once these dates can be
verified from Foster, with hopefully his sources for them, then it can
be determined if any 1430/31 IPM for Elizabeth Scrope Clarell survives.
What's interesting about the above 1455 demise is the inclusion of the
clause regarding the manor of Haldenby as an alternate grant to child
couple Thomas Fitzwilliam and Joan Mirfield - apparently if widow
Elizabeth Clarell died before 1463, when the feoffees were instructed
to make the original grant to the young couple of lands in Wadworth and
Bilham.
"John Pillyngton", second husband of widow Elizabeth Clarell, is either
a mistranscription or a variation in spelling for "John Pilkington".
He was John Pilkington, esquire, of the Lancashire Pilkingtons, as the
following document in the National Archives database shows:
SC 8/117/5838
Petitioners: The Prioress and convent of Hampole. Addressees: Commons.
Places mentioned: Hampole, [West Riding of] Yorkshire; Pilkington,
Lancashire; Lancashire; Doncaster, [West Riding of] Yorkshire. Other
people mentioned: Elizabeth [Clarell], widow of Thomas Clarell; Thomas
Clarell; John Pilkyngton (Pilkington) of Pilkington Hall, gentleman;
Thomas Boterworth (Butterworth) of Lancashire, yeoman; Gilbert
Boterworth (Butterworth) of Lancashire, yeoman; John Boterworth
(Butterworth) of Lancashire, yeoman; Margaret Herkyngton; Joan Foliambe
(Foljambe); Alice Roudon; Joan Sibson; Ellen Hyne; Christiana Bakehous;
Margery Lawe; Joan Brigge (Bridge); Sheriff of Yorkshire; [John Kemp],
Chancellor of England. [1450]
The Prioress of Hampole who submitted the above 1450 petition to the
Commons was not Agnes Clarell, daughter of Thomas Clarell and Elizabeth
Scrope, but rather Margaret Normanville, who was prioress from 1445
until her resignation in 1452. But Agnes was a nun at Hampole at the
time, and succeeded as prioress in 1452. The above abstract doesn't
specifically say if Elizabeth, widow of Thomas Clarell, and John
Pilkington were married yet. The full document may contain in it the
precise relationships of the people mentioned.
Elizabeth Clarell Pilkington seems to have died shortly after the July
1455 demise above, as her lack of mention in the following fine would
indicate:
"Fines 33 H. 6 [1455]. Between John Sayvile [Sayvell, 'Dodsworth'] Kt,
John Ellis, Clerke [clerk], John Pilkington, Esq. & William Bradford,
compt [complainant] And Richard fitz William Esq. & Elizabeth his wife,
deforts [deforciants] of the Mannr of Haldenby, with the appurtnances
&c. of 12 Messs [messuages], 200 Acres of Land, 30 Acres of medow, & 6
Acres of wood, with the appurtnances in Haldenby, Thribergh, Dalton,
Ravenfeld, Doncaster & Bramley. the right of the said Eliz:" [From
'Wapentake of Osgoldcross (Part IV)' by Richard Holmes in Yorkshire
Arch. Journal, Vol. 11 (1891), p. 47.]
The manor of Haldenby, Yorkshire, was Elizabeth Scrope's inheritance
from her father Sir John le Scrope (d. 1405), and she brought it to her
marriage with Thomas Clarell. Pilkington's mention in the above fine
without his wife Elizabeth indicates she was deceased when it was made.
The fact that the fine acknowledges Haldenby as of the right of
Elizabeth Fitzwilliam indicates that her mother Elizabeth Scrope was
dead. Further corroboration that we are talking about the same woman.
The presence of Sir John Savile alongside John Pilkington in the fine
indicates that Pilkington was probably John Pilkington (born about
1397), esquire, eldest son and heir of Sir John Pilkington (d. 16 Feb.
1421), of Pilkington, Lancashire, by his wife Margaret de Verdun (d.
Nov. 1436). Their daughter Margaret Pilkington married Thomas Savile,
making Sir John Savile Pilkington's nephew. The heir of John
Pilkington, esquire, of Pilkington, was another nephew, Thomas
Pilkington, which indicates he died without issue of his wife Elizabeth
Clarell. More research into the Pilkington family may yield further
clues.
Cheers, ------Brad
Thanks for the reminder about the 1455 Fitzwilliam demise. Comments
interspersed.
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Nice post, Brad. I do have one addition to your Clarell material.
You stated:
Elizabeth le Scrope was married in 9 Henry IV (1407-08) to Thomas
Clarell of Aldwark (born 1394, died 6 Feb. 1430) and died 8 Mar. 1430.
Elizabeth Scrope actually survived her husband, Thomas Clarell, Esq.,
and married (2nd) John Pillyngton.
At the time we discussed this possibility on the newsgroup, back in
Sep. 2003, I had written:
*There seems to be some uncertainty over when the younger Thomas
Clarell, husband of Elizabeth le Scrope, died. From Rosie's post of
November 2002: "The birth date of Thomas Clarell comes from Foster's
Yorkshire pedigrees, Clarell pedigree. He was b. 1394 (13 1/2 years
of age in 9 Hen 4, 1407; married 9 Hen 4, 1407; died. 6 Feb 1430. On
15 July 1430, administration of his effects was granted to his
mother." Yet on 10 June 1441, Thomas Clarell the elder and Maud his
wife mention their son Thomas in a remainder of a grant of Ulceby
manor. And in July 1455, in a demise of Edmund Fitzwilliam
(presumably the father of Sir Richard Fitzwilliam), mention is made of
"Eliz. wife of John Pillyngton and late wife of Thos. Clarell." This
would have to refer to the widow of the Thomas Clarell who was husband
to Elizabeth le Scrope, as mention is made in the same demise of his
mother Maud also being alive, so his father cannot have remarried.
Either Elizabeth le Scrope survived her husband, remarried John
Pillyngton, and was alive in 1455, or her husband Thomas took a second
wife, also named Elizabeth.
I still haven't resolved whether the Elizabeth, widow of Thomas
Clarell, who was alive in 1455 was his first (and only) wife, Elizabeth
Scrope, or was a second wife, also named Elizabeth.
I want to verify what the original source is for the very specific date
of 8 Mar. 1430 for the death of Elizabeth Scrope, Dame Clarell. I
hesitate to discard it completely, as there is also the age of 15 in
1430-31 that is provided for her daughter Elizabeth Clarell. That may
have come from some kind of inquisition taken in that year, which
matches the 1430 death date provided for her mother.
I have my doubts about Elizabeth Clarell, wife of Sir Richard
Fitzwilliam, being age 15 in 1430-31, as that would make her age 87/88
at her 1503 death. Not impossible, but very unusual.
The good news is that I realize the source for the Scrope/Clarell dates
I had jotted down was probably Foster's Yorkshire Pedigrees, which I
had only ever seen in the library of Scarborough, Yorkshire. If anyone
has access to this book, and can look up the Clarell pedigree and
report back, I would be very grateful. Once these dates can be
verified from Foster, with hopefully his sources for them, then it can
be determined if any 1430/31 IPM for Elizabeth Scrope Clarell survives.
She was living 18 July 1455, as
indicated in the document below from the helpful online A2A catalogue.
[snip]
Nottinghamshire Archives: Foljambe of Osberton: Deeds and Estate
Papers, Reference: DD/FJ/4/38/2
Creation dates: 18 July 1455
Language: Latin
Scope and Content
Defeasance of demise.
1) Edmund Fitzwilliam, esq., and feoffees:-
John Wehetley, rector of Plumtre.
Thos. Fitzwilliam, rector of Sprotburgh, etc.
2) Rob. Nevyll, esq.
Wm. Skargill, jun., and others.
Demise of (1) and father Edmund F. of premises in Waddeworth and Bilham
to be void if Rich. Fitzwilliam and wife make estate to (2) of either
manor of Steton and lands there and in Milford worth £13 6s 8d p.a.
6 months after death of Matilda late wife of Thos. Clarell; or of manor
of Haldenby worth £13 6s 8d p.a.
6 months after death of Eliz. wife of John Pillyngton and late wife of
Thos. Clarell. On condition that (2) within 6 months after 7 years
settle same on Thos. Fitzwilliam and Johanna d. of Wm. Mirfeld if they
marry, or to Johanna for life with remainder to Eliz. wife of Richard
Fitzwilliam.
Witn.: Rob. Drax, Thurstan Banastre, John Fitzwilliam, etc.
33 Hen. VI.
3 seals.
What's interesting about the above 1455 demise is the inclusion of the
clause regarding the manor of Haldenby as an alternate grant to child
couple Thomas Fitzwilliam and Joan Mirfield - apparently if widow
Elizabeth Clarell died before 1463, when the feoffees were instructed
to make the original grant to the young couple of lands in Wadworth and
Bilham.
"John Pillyngton", second husband of widow Elizabeth Clarell, is either
a mistranscription or a variation in spelling for "John Pilkington".
He was John Pilkington, esquire, of the Lancashire Pilkingtons, as the
following document in the National Archives database shows:
SC 8/117/5838
Petitioners: The Prioress and convent of Hampole. Addressees: Commons.
Places mentioned: Hampole, [West Riding of] Yorkshire; Pilkington,
Lancashire; Lancashire; Doncaster, [West Riding of] Yorkshire. Other
people mentioned: Elizabeth [Clarell], widow of Thomas Clarell; Thomas
Clarell; John Pilkyngton (Pilkington) of Pilkington Hall, gentleman;
Thomas Boterworth (Butterworth) of Lancashire, yeoman; Gilbert
Boterworth (Butterworth) of Lancashire, yeoman; John Boterworth
(Butterworth) of Lancashire, yeoman; Margaret Herkyngton; Joan Foliambe
(Foljambe); Alice Roudon; Joan Sibson; Ellen Hyne; Christiana Bakehous;
Margery Lawe; Joan Brigge (Bridge); Sheriff of Yorkshire; [John Kemp],
Chancellor of England. [1450]
The Prioress of Hampole who submitted the above 1450 petition to the
Commons was not Agnes Clarell, daughter of Thomas Clarell and Elizabeth
Scrope, but rather Margaret Normanville, who was prioress from 1445
until her resignation in 1452. But Agnes was a nun at Hampole at the
time, and succeeded as prioress in 1452. The above abstract doesn't
specifically say if Elizabeth, widow of Thomas Clarell, and John
Pilkington were married yet. The full document may contain in it the
precise relationships of the people mentioned.
Elizabeth Clarell Pilkington seems to have died shortly after the July
1455 demise above, as her lack of mention in the following fine would
indicate:
"Fines 33 H. 6 [1455]. Between John Sayvile [Sayvell, 'Dodsworth'] Kt,
John Ellis, Clerke [clerk], John Pilkington, Esq. & William Bradford,
compt [complainant] And Richard fitz William Esq. & Elizabeth his wife,
deforts [deforciants] of the Mannr of Haldenby, with the appurtnances
&c. of 12 Messs [messuages], 200 Acres of Land, 30 Acres of medow, & 6
Acres of wood, with the appurtnances in Haldenby, Thribergh, Dalton,
Ravenfeld, Doncaster & Bramley. the right of the said Eliz:" [From
'Wapentake of Osgoldcross (Part IV)' by Richard Holmes in Yorkshire
Arch. Journal, Vol. 11 (1891), p. 47.]
The manor of Haldenby, Yorkshire, was Elizabeth Scrope's inheritance
from her father Sir John le Scrope (d. 1405), and she brought it to her
marriage with Thomas Clarell. Pilkington's mention in the above fine
without his wife Elizabeth indicates she was deceased when it was made.
The fact that the fine acknowledges Haldenby as of the right of
Elizabeth Fitzwilliam indicates that her mother Elizabeth Scrope was
dead. Further corroboration that we are talking about the same woman.
The presence of Sir John Savile alongside John Pilkington in the fine
indicates that Pilkington was probably John Pilkington (born about
1397), esquire, eldest son and heir of Sir John Pilkington (d. 16 Feb.
1421), of Pilkington, Lancashire, by his wife Margaret de Verdun (d.
Nov. 1436). Their daughter Margaret Pilkington married Thomas Savile,
making Sir John Savile Pilkington's nephew. The heir of John
Pilkington, esquire, of Pilkington, was another nephew, Thomas
Pilkington, which indicates he died without issue of his wife Elizabeth
Clarell. More research into the Pilkington family may yield further
clues.
Cheers, ------Brad
-
Brad Verity
Re: A redating for Elizabeth le Scrope d 1430, wife of Thoma
Some further thoughts and evidence.
Brad Verity wrote:
It's quite possible the July 1455 demise was made because Elizabeth,
widow of Thomas Clarell, had recently died. The wording of the demise
does not specifically state that she was alive - only that the original
demise to young Thomas Fitzwilliam and Joan Mirfield of lands in
Wadworth and Bilham - scheduled to take place in 1463 - would be void
if Richard and Elizabeth Fitzwilliam (parents of Thomas) decide instead
to grant Haldenby to the young couple within six months after the death
of Elizabeth, widow of Thomas Clarell.
The fine of the same year granting Haldenby very specifically to
Richard and Elizabeth Fitzwilliam was probably part of the legal
process to do just that - in turn grant it to their eldest son and his
young bride.
Even more collaboration that Elizabeth, widow of Thomas Clarell and
wife of John Pilkington was indeed Elizabeth Scrope is the following
document:
"Demise by John Pylkyngton Esq. to George brother of the King, Duke of
Clarence, Wm. Scrope, clerk, Henry Pierpoint Esq., Hugh Annesley Esq.,
John Fitzwilliam Esq., Thos. Fitzwilliam, clerk, and Robt. Popenwell of
the manors of Holynhall and Byrteby, Yorks, the manor of Thorpe
Custantyn, Staffordshire and the manor of Tharfeld, Cambridgeshire;
with power of attorney to John Skiers and John Kyng to deliver seisin.
Witnesses:--Jas. Strangwissh, Knt., John Grysley, Knt., Jas.
Strangwissh, Esq., John Cheyne of Dytton Esq., Wm. Calverley Esq.,
Roger Ledes, Henry Rokeley. Holynhall, 7 May, 3 Edw. iv. [1463]"
[From A.S. Ellis, 'Yorkshire Deeds Part II' in Yorkshire Arch. Journal,
Vol. 12 (1893), pp. 258-259]
I don't know about Thorpe Custantyn, Staffordshire, and Tharfeld,
Cambridgeshire, but the two Yorkshire manors of Holynhall [Hollinhall
(near Ripon)] and Byrteby [Birkby] had been granted to Sir John le
Scrope (d. 1405) by his father, and could be passed on to his
descendants [source: his bio in Roskell's HOP].
Pilkington being in possession of them in 1463 could only have been due
to his marriage with Elizabeth, widow of Thomas Clarell. And as the
properties were Scrope properties, she must have been Elizabeth,
daughter of Sir John le Scrope.
It just leaves the matter of determining how Foster, in his 'Yorkshire
Pedigrees', arrived at the date of 8 Mar. 1430 for the death of
Elizabeth Scrope Clarell, plus the age of 15 in 1430-31 for her
daughter Elizabeth Clarell Fitzwilliam.
Cheers, -----Brad
Brad Verity wrote:
What's interesting about the above 1455 demise is the inclusion of the
clause regarding the manor of Haldenby as an alternate grant to child
couple Thomas Fitzwilliam and Joan Mirfield - apparently if widow
Elizabeth Clarell died before 1463, when the feoffees were instructed
to make the original grant to the young couple of lands in Wadworth and
Bilham.
It's quite possible the July 1455 demise was made because Elizabeth,
widow of Thomas Clarell, had recently died. The wording of the demise
does not specifically state that she was alive - only that the original
demise to young Thomas Fitzwilliam and Joan Mirfield of lands in
Wadworth and Bilham - scheduled to take place in 1463 - would be void
if Richard and Elizabeth Fitzwilliam (parents of Thomas) decide instead
to grant Haldenby to the young couple within six months after the death
of Elizabeth, widow of Thomas Clarell.
The fine of the same year granting Haldenby very specifically to
Richard and Elizabeth Fitzwilliam was probably part of the legal
process to do just that - in turn grant it to their eldest son and his
young bride.
The manor of Haldenby, Yorkshire, was Elizabeth Scrope's inheritance
from her father Sir John le Scrope (d. 1405), and she brought it to her
marriage with Thomas Clarell. Pilkington's mention in the above fine
without his wife Elizabeth indicates she was deceased when it was made.
The fact that the fine acknowledges Haldenby as of the right of
Elizabeth Fitzwilliam indicates that her mother Elizabeth Scrope was
dead. Further corroboration that we are talking about the same woman.
Even more collaboration that Elizabeth, widow of Thomas Clarell and
wife of John Pilkington was indeed Elizabeth Scrope is the following
document:
"Demise by John Pylkyngton Esq. to George brother of the King, Duke of
Clarence, Wm. Scrope, clerk, Henry Pierpoint Esq., Hugh Annesley Esq.,
John Fitzwilliam Esq., Thos. Fitzwilliam, clerk, and Robt. Popenwell of
the manors of Holynhall and Byrteby, Yorks, the manor of Thorpe
Custantyn, Staffordshire and the manor of Tharfeld, Cambridgeshire;
with power of attorney to John Skiers and John Kyng to deliver seisin.
Witnesses:--Jas. Strangwissh, Knt., John Grysley, Knt., Jas.
Strangwissh, Esq., John Cheyne of Dytton Esq., Wm. Calverley Esq.,
Roger Ledes, Henry Rokeley. Holynhall, 7 May, 3 Edw. iv. [1463]"
[From A.S. Ellis, 'Yorkshire Deeds Part II' in Yorkshire Arch. Journal,
Vol. 12 (1893), pp. 258-259]
I don't know about Thorpe Custantyn, Staffordshire, and Tharfeld,
Cambridgeshire, but the two Yorkshire manors of Holynhall [Hollinhall
(near Ripon)] and Byrteby [Birkby] had been granted to Sir John le
Scrope (d. 1405) by his father, and could be passed on to his
descendants [source: his bio in Roskell's HOP].
Pilkington being in possession of them in 1463 could only have been due
to his marriage with Elizabeth, widow of Thomas Clarell. And as the
properties were Scrope properties, she must have been Elizabeth,
daughter of Sir John le Scrope.
It just leaves the matter of determining how Foster, in his 'Yorkshire
Pedigrees', arrived at the date of 8 Mar. 1430 for the death of
Elizabeth Scrope Clarell, plus the age of 15 in 1430-31 for her
daughter Elizabeth Clarell Fitzwilliam.
Cheers, -----Brad
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: A redating for Elizabeth le Scrope d 1430, wife of Thoma
Nice work, Brad. Thank you for sharing your findings with the
newsgroup.
I agree that John Pilkington, Esq. is the correct name of Elizabeth
Scrope's second husband, not Pillyngton as stated in the 1455 record I
posted from the A2A Catalogue. In fact. I suspect if you contact the
record office which holds the 1455 record, they will confirm that the
original record reads Pilkington, not Pillyngton.
As for Foster, while he is often quite helpful, he is not the most
reliable source. I verify all of his statements where possible.
DR
newsgroup.
I agree that John Pilkington, Esq. is the correct name of Elizabeth
Scrope's second husband, not Pillyngton as stated in the 1455 record I
posted from the A2A Catalogue. In fact. I suspect if you contact the
record office which holds the 1455 record, they will confirm that the
original record reads Pilkington, not Pillyngton.
As for Foster, while he is often quite helpful, he is not the most
reliable source. I verify all of his statements where possible.
DR
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: A redating for Elizabeth le Scrope d 1430, wife of Thoma
Nice work, Brad. Thank you for sharing your findings with the
newsgroup.
I agree that John Pilkington, Esq. is the correct name of Elizabeth
Scrope's second husband, not Pillyngton as stated in the 1455 record I
posted from the A2A Catalogue. In fact I suspect if you contact the
record office which holds the 1455 record, they will confirm that the
original record reads Pilkington, not Pillyngton.
As for Foster, while he is often quite helpful, he is not the most
reliable source. I verify all of his statements where possible.
DR
newsgroup.
I agree that John Pilkington, Esq. is the correct name of Elizabeth
Scrope's second husband, not Pillyngton as stated in the 1455 record I
posted from the A2A Catalogue. In fact I suspect if you contact the
record office which holds the 1455 record, they will confirm that the
original record reads Pilkington, not Pillyngton.
As for Foster, while he is often quite helpful, he is not the most
reliable source. I verify all of his statements where possible.
DR
-
Gjest
Re: A redating for Elizabeth le Scrope d 1430, wife of Thoma
In a message dated 10/21/05 9:34:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
batruth@hotmail.com writes:
<< Pilkington being in possession of them in 1463 could only have been due
to his marriage with Elizabeth, widow of Thomas Clarell. And as the
properties were Scrope properties, she must have been Elizabeth,
daughter of Sir John le Scrope. >>
Why could not his possession of them be due to a marriage to Maud Clarell
daughter of Elizabeth (le Scrope) Clarell ? It's true we have a marriage for her
but that does not preclude her being married twice.
Will Johnson
batruth@hotmail.com writes:
<< Pilkington being in possession of them in 1463 could only have been due
to his marriage with Elizabeth, widow of Thomas Clarell. And as the
properties were Scrope properties, she must have been Elizabeth,
daughter of Sir John le Scrope. >>
Why could not his possession of them be due to a marriage to Maud Clarell
daughter of Elizabeth (le Scrope) Clarell ? It's true we have a marriage for her
but that does not preclude her being married twice.
Will Johnson
-
Brad Verity
Re: A redating for Elizabeth le Scrope d 1430, wife of Thoma
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
The July 1455 demise specifically states that John Pilkyngton, esquire,
was the husband of Elizabeth, widow of Thomas Clarell. And the fine of
the same year regarding the manor of Haldenby says it was of the right
of Elizabeth (Clarell) Fitzwilliam. Had her sister Maud been alive in
1455, she would have had right to it as well.
I don't have any information on Maud, other than her mention in the
Scrope/Clarell/Fitzwilliam pedigree from the 1480-1500 Visitation of
the North:
"Matildis nupta filio et heredi domini Roberti Vtright militis obijt
sine prole."
If anyone has access to information on the family of Ughtred (I believe
they're covered in CP), and can determine which Sir Robert Ughtred was
Maud's father-in-law, that would be helpful.
Cheers, ------Brad
Why could not his possession of them be due to a marriage to Maud Clarell
daughter of Elizabeth (le Scrope) Clarell ? It's true we have a marriage for her
but that does not preclude her being married twice.
The July 1455 demise specifically states that John Pilkyngton, esquire,
was the husband of Elizabeth, widow of Thomas Clarell. And the fine of
the same year regarding the manor of Haldenby says it was of the right
of Elizabeth (Clarell) Fitzwilliam. Had her sister Maud been alive in
1455, she would have had right to it as well.
I don't have any information on Maud, other than her mention in the
Scrope/Clarell/Fitzwilliam pedigree from the 1480-1500 Visitation of
the North:
"Matildis nupta filio et heredi domini Roberti Vtright militis obijt
sine prole."
If anyone has access to information on the family of Ughtred (I believe
they're covered in CP), and can determine which Sir Robert Ughtred was
Maud's father-in-law, that would be helpful.
Cheers, ------Brad