Scottish Mowbrays 1200-1350

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Alex Maxwell Findlater

Scottish Mowbrays 1200-1350

Legg inn av Alex Maxwell Findlater » 16 okt 2005 18:19:22

Dear Alex,
In interest of clarification the _______ Comyn who
married
Geoffrey Mowbray was a daughter of John, the Red Comyn I who
according to
Alan Young " Robert the Bruce`s rivals: the Comyns 1212- 1314 died
before 1277
(see family tree pp x and xi). He married as You stated Eve and Alice
in this
book called a Lindsay, but Douglas Richardson in his recent Magna
Carta
Ancestry under Clarell makes a good case for her being a Roos (see MCA
pp 201-202)
He indicates see was a daughter of William and Lucy (Fitz peter) de
Roos
whose father granted her free warren in Ulceby, Lincoln. She married
2nd about
1277, Sir James Byron and She died testate before 29 April 1286.
Eve was nother of Geoffrey Mowbray`s wife and of John the Black Comyn
I who
succeeded his father in Badenoch, Became one of the 13 competitors for
the
Scots crown in 1290 but threw his support and urged his son John the
Red Comyn II
to do likewise to his brother-in-law John Baliol, whose sister Alianor
was
the mother of Red Comyn II.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA


There is a useful treatment of the Mowbray family in Dumfries
Antiquarian Transactions (TDGNHAS) Vol XI, 1923/24, pp49-63

Gjest

Re: Scottish Mowbrays 1200-1350

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 okt 2005 20:04:02

Dear Alex,
Thank You for that information. I shall certainly look it up
if / ? when I next get to a library with a copy or find one on- line.
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA

Ginny Wagner

marriage of stepmothers ... Pagan practice

Legg inn av Ginny Wagner » 27 okt 2005 09:43:02

When trying to follow some pedigrees, it might be helpful to
keep the following in mind:

From St. Neot's Annals, Edited by William Henry Stevenson,
MA, Oxford at the Clarendon Press, 1904:

214 NOTES [C.17

17, 5 thorum patris sui ascendens. According to
Beda King Eadbald of Kent married his father's widow,
a proceeding that the historian describes as ' fornicatione
... . qualem nee inter gentes auditam apostolus testatur[2].
Possibly the author of the Life was acquainted with this
passage, but whether he drew his description of such
a marriage as unknown among pagans from Beda or from
the text referred to by him, it is certainly wrong. The
step taken by the Kentish king was part of the reaction
against Christianity that marked his accession. The pro-
hibition of such marriages was one of the restrictions
introduced among the Germans by Christian influence[3].
The legality of marriage with a step-mother was one of the
questions submitted to Gregory by Augustine as a result
of his experience in England[4]. The question had arisen
some years before the accession of Eadbald. It is difficult
to
believe that this heathen institution of marriage with a
step-
mother can have been the cause of Aethelbeald's marriage
with Judith, as Weinhold suggests[5]. The custom existed in
Scotland until the twelfth century, when Queen Margaret
is said to have procured its suppression[6]. There is an
instance of it in Wales as late as the ninth century [7].
Pro-
copius records that Hermigisi, king of the Warni, on his
death-bed commanded his son to espouse his step-mother [8].
The custom was also known among the Lithuanians[9], and,
indeed, seems to have widely spread among pagans.

------------
Footnotes:
2 Hist. Eccl. ii. c. 5.
3 Edgar Loening, Geschichte des deutschen Kirchenrechtes,
Strassburg,1878, ii. p. 562; Weinhold, Die deutschen Frauen
im Mittelalter, i.359 sqq.
4 Beda, Hist. Eccl. i. c. 37, question 5 ; Haddan and
Stubbs, Councils,iii. p. 20. Hartmann, in the Registrum
Gregorii Magni, ii. p. 332,decides in favour of the
authenticity of these questions and answers.
5 Die deulschen Frauen, i. p. 360. If it was, as he
suggests, a
political institution, it must have gone out of use before
Beda's time, to judge by his language. Robertson, Historical
Essays, p. Ixvii, attempts to explain the custom as arising
from ' the desire of preventing the joint property from
passing beyond the limits of the nsaeg.'
6 Haddan and Stubbs, Councils, ii. p. 158, § 5.
7 Liber Landavensis, p. 189.
8 De Bella Gothico, iv. c. 20. This was for political
reasons.
9 Schrader, Reatlexikon der indegermanischen Altertumskunde,
p. 910.

Ginny Wagner

Ginny Wagner

RE: Pronunciation Of _William_

Legg inn av Ginny Wagner » 27 okt 2005 11:01:02

Also from St. Neots, the strange characters, like an a with a bar over it, and the greek came through as laka ... so if you are going to use this as a source for anything important, you need to pull the original material or see if I have the jpg of the page. At any rate, the reason I've posted this is to show the various language problems that come with the medieval documents and to give another case of a 'G' becoming a 'W' in England, this time from Welsh.


42, 18 fluminis Guilou. This is a Welsh form of the name of the Wiley, which must have come from some Welsh speaking people in the vicinity of that river[2]. It represents a Welsh development from an older Wilavia. the English development from which produced Wilig[3]'. A Welsh form of the name of another river of like origin appears to be recorded in the ' fluvium, qui (sic') dicitur Weluue,' which is mentioned in a grant to the monastery at Wells in 766[4], and in the Welewe-stoc of a spurious Bath charter, with the impossible date 984[5]. This latter is Wellow, co. Somerset, which probably derived its name from the affluent of the Avon upon which it is situated. There is a 'Pays de Gwelou' in the Domnonee (Dumnonia) of Britanny, which Loth has compared with the Guilou of the Life[6]. It is called in Latin ' pagus Velaviensis.'

2. See below, p. 248, note to c. 49, 6.
3. This form occurs frequently in texts derived from the Wilton, Winchester, and Shaftesbury chartularies. As a non-English name it is almost invariably used as an indeclinable substantive.
4. Cart. Sax, i. 283, 20, 30, possibly genuine.
5. Codex Diplom. iii. 204, g.
6. L'emigration bretonne en Armerique, par J. Loth, Rennes, 1883, p.191.
STEVENSON R.



-----

49, 6 Frauu, the river Froom. This is a Welsh form, which, as Mr. Henry Bradley has discovered, is easily explained by the supposition that the river-name descends from an early Celtic *Frama. In Welsh Celtic a developed to au. Modern Welsh aw, and in such a position m became eventually v, so that by reading the form in the Life as Frauv we obtain a Welsh representative of *Frama, O.E. From, which is recorded as the name of the Dorsetshire river in the Chron. under 998 and 1015. In Wales this river-name is recorded in Aberffraw, in Anglesey, a form that results from the vocalization of the v after u. As this specifically Celtic or Welsh change of m to v had not occurred at the time when the English occupied Dorset, as is proved by the form of this river-name, the author of the Life must either have detected the identity of From and Welsh Frau, or have derived the latter from Welsh-speaking natives of the West of England who were acquainted with this Dorsetshire river. The la!
tter is the more plausible origin. If we may trust the evidence of William of Malmesbury, the city of Exeter was divided between the Welsh and the English as late as the time of ^Ethelstan[1]. It is, therefore, not improbable that there were Celtic-speaking inhabitants nearer to Wareham than Exeter in 893. It is from them that the author most probably picked up this Celtic equivalent of the English name, for it is not very likely that without knowledge of the existence of this Celtic form he would convert English From into this specifically Welsh Frauu or Frauv, although he might, as a Welshman acquainted with this mutation of m into », recognize the identity of the Celtic and the English forms. The presence of Welsh-speaking people in Dorset or near enough to the Froom to know it by its Welsh name is more easily explicable at the end of the ninth century than the end of the tenth, and the existence of this undoubtedly Welsh form, with the equally Welsh Durngueir (c. 49, 7!
), Guilou (c. 42,19), Uuisc (c. 49, 24), and Cairuuisc {C. 49, 23), is
in our opinion an argument of some weight in favour of the authenticity of this work. Both these features fit in too well with the Welsh Asser, the Bishop of Sherborne, which diocese included Dorset, to be readily explained away as due to a later forger using his name.


1. Gesta Reyum, c. 134 (i. p. 148). This may have been derived from the Latin metrical Life of ^Ethelstan used by this chronicler. See above, p. 184, note 4.

------

40, 7 Durngueir. This form, which is restored for the Durngueis of the editions, which has clearly no basis beyond a typographical error in Parker's text caused by the easy confusion of s and r in O.E. types, is of interest.

It is the regular Welsh descendant of the Durnovaria, which occurs in the Antonine Itinerary as the name of Dorchester. The changes in form are due to the regular loss of the stem-vowel of Durno in the compound, to the Welsh change of w to gu, and to the Welsh epenthesis and vowel-change, by which changes waria should yield regularly gueir. These changes had not taken place when Durnovaria came into the hands of the West Saxons, for they identified the latter part of the name with their own ware, 'inhabitants,' the O.E. name of the city being Dornwarana-ceaster or Dornwara-ceaster [1].

[fn1]
1 The former, embodying a weak genitive ploral, occurs in a contemporary charter of 847 (Brit. Mus. Facs. ii. pi. 30; Cart. Sax. ii. 34, 8),and the latter in two Winchester charters of 863 and 868 (Caf-t. Sax. ii. 119,7; l35>34). Dornwerecestre occurs in a late Shaftesbury text dated 833 (ibid. i. 573, i6).

--------
49, 24 Uuisc. This is another Celtic form, and, like the instances given above in the note to line 6, has undergone Celtic sound-development that is later in date than the time when the West Saxon invaders arrived at Exeter. The name of the river Exe is recorded in the Roman name of Exeter as Isca (Dumnuniorum) in the Antonine Itinerary and in the Peutinger map, and it appears in some of the MSS. of Ptolemy as "laka, which is clearly more accurate than "loaka, the reading of most of the MSS. and editions[1]. The initial vowel was evidently Celtic e (ei), which developed in Welsh to ui, modern wi, so that the Uuisc of the present passage represents an older Esca. It was evidently in the latter form that the river-name first reached the English, for the earliest spelling of Exeter is Escancastre, which occurs in the middle of the eighth century [2], and from which Exanceaster has arisen by a not uncommon O.E. metathesis.

Thus the form Uuisc could not have been the English one in the time of King Alfred, and the author must therefore have heard it from Celtic inhabitants of Devon or have recognized the identity of O.E. Exe with Welsh Uuisc. The latter is more improbable than in the case of the Frauu[3], and we may safely conclude that it was the name by which the river was still known among the Welsh of Devon and Cornwall at this time. The appearance of the river-name in O.E. in the older form is another and important argument in favour of the view that Devon was conquered by the West Saxons at an earlier period than is given in our histories[4]'. Cairuuisc, which the author gives as the Welsh name of Exeter, was, no doubt, derived from his local knowledge. In meaning it exactly agrees with the O.E. Exanceaster.

Florence of Worcester substituted ' eiusdem' (referring to Exae', for Uuisc, and the compiler of the Annals of St. Neots similarly substituted Exa. The latter was not a result of comparison with the wording of Florence, but was an alteration made independently. Both were evidently puzzled by Uuisc. That this name was in the Life is proved, apart from the evidence of Parker and Wise's editions, by the occurrence of the interlinear gloss ' wise, i(d est) Eaxa' in the copy of Florence that belonged to the monastery of Bury St. Edmunds[5], where it is written over ripa and fluminis (line 24). This gloss was, no doubt, taken from the present work, for it is not represented in the Annals of St. Neots.

The words 'Exae, quae' in line 23 are due to Florence, and the Latin explanation of the meaning of the name of Exeter seems also to have been lacking in the copy of the Life used by the compiler of the Annals of St. Neots. The explanation of the name as ' civitas aquae' in both parts of Simeon of Durham[6] is due to late twelfth-century alterations, although no note of this fact is given in the unsatisfactory editions of this work[7]. It seems to have grown out of ' exae quae' of Florence.


1. The former is adopted by Miiller in his edition of Ptolemy, lib. ii,
c. 3, § 3 (Paris, 1883).

2. Willibrord's Life of St. Boniface, c. i, ed. Jaffe, Monuments. Moguntina, p. 433. He states that Boniface was educated in the monastery Adescancastre, i.e. set Escanceastre, under Abbot Wulfhard.

3. See p. 249,above.

4. See Crawford Charters, p. 44. The evidence of Willibrord is alone sufficient to establish an English connexion with Exeter before the end of the seventh century, unless we liold that the West Saxon Boniface was educated among the Welsh of Cairuuisc in a monastery ruled by an Englishman, and that Willibroid applied the English name to that city proleptically.

5. Bodley MS. 297. See page 101, above.

6. The ' aquarum' given in the printed texts of the first part is a misreading of the compendium for ' aquae' in the MS.

7. The latest edition by Arnold repeats many readings that do not exist in the MS. but are due to blunders in Twysden's edition. An example of this may be found in the treatment of the name of Ethandun in all the printed texts of the Durham compilation. See p. 277, below.

Ginny Wagner

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