Languages (OT ?)

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Leo van de Pas

Languages (OT ?)

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 16 okt 2005 09:16:02

A long time ago I was told that Australian _spoken_ officially had become a dialect. The same person also thought that American _spoken_ often was closer to original English (I am getting into hot water?) than what is spoken in England.

Well, I read this paragraph and I wonder, do I know what she means? and perhaps is she using the wrong word? But then with Americans you cannot know :-)

"I never knew my father's parents, who died before I was born. My grandfather ran a printing plant and my grandmother, whom I apparently favor, was a house wife."

Surely with favor she means resemble? No need guessing who "she" is. Spencer Hines was very close.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

Gjest

Re: Languages (OT ?)

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 okt 2005 09:16:03

Yes, she means that she resembles her grandmother. In regard to
"American" resembling "original" English, however, it is the Black
dialect, in some aspects, that resembles an older form of English. The
word that most commonly is used to give an example is "ask". In Black
American dialect, this is pronounced "aks" which is closer to how it
was pronounced in England several centuries ago. The dialect descends
from a language called "Gullah", still spoken on islands in the deep
south, which is a mixture of English and several African languages. The
"southern" accent, as displayed by whites, stems, in turn, from Black
dialect - due to the use of Black nannies for white children. Whether
the modern Black dialect ("Ebonics") is truly a legitimate dialect or
not is a matter of controversy in both the Black and white communities.
Best, Bronwen

grobison

Re: Languages (OT ?)

Legg inn av grobison » 16 okt 2005 17:55:19

"Leo van de Pas" wrote:
<<> A long time ago I was told that Australian _spoken_ officially had
become a dialect. The same person also thought that American _spoken_
often was closer to original English (I am getting into hot water?)
than what is spoken in England.
Well, I read this paragraph and I wonder, do I know what she means? and perhaps is she using the wrong word? But then with Americans you cannot know :-)

"I never knew my father's parents, who died before I was born. My grandfather ran a printing plant and my grandmother, whom I apparently favor, was a house wife."

Surely with favor she means resemble? No need guessing who "she" is. Spencer Hines was very close.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

Yes, favor is used to mean resemble here.

I am not sure what is meant by "original English," and have never
encountered a native American speaker of Anglo-Saxon, but until recent
years there were, and still remain vestiges of, several English, Irish
and Scots dialects in rural Appalachia, parts of New England, and
perhaps most strikingly in formerly isolated islands along the
Virginia, and North and South Carolina coasts, such as Tangier Island
in Chesapeake Bay, where "sink" is pronounced "zink," "Paul" and "ball"
are pronounced "pull" and "bull," and so on. This latter example is
said to come from the West Country of England.

It used to be said that these rural accents were Elizabethan, but that
is impossible, since the first English colony in what is now the US,
Jamestown, was not established until 1609. Nonetheless, the speech of
the rural South is full of words and expressions that are now archaic
in Britain, and many of them are closer to Anglo-Saxon, Scots and
Gaelic root words and meanings than the French, Latin, and
Greek-derived equivalents that are now more common in the UK.

One guards one's cowboyesse against continental assaults.

D. Spencer Hines

Fond Of Fondas

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 16 okt 2005 20:08:01

"Surely with favor she means resemble? No need guessing who "she" is.
Spencer Hines was very close."

Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
-------------------------------------

Jane Fonda?

Henry Fonda's second wife, Frances Ford Seymour **, Jane's mother, was
well born and a New York socialite. She killed herself by slashing her
throat in 1950 when Jane was 12.

"Here's to you, Frances Ford Seymour, my mother - you did the best you
could. You gave me life, you gave me wounds; you also gave me part of
what I needed to grow stronger at the broken place." -- Jane Fonda

Yes, favor means resemble -- also, in the South, it can mean "has the
mannerisms of" -- "reminds people of" -- that sort of thing.

A cultured Southern American dialect can have many points of commonality
with British English.

**"She was the daughter of Eugene Ford Seymour and Sophie Mildred Bower.
On January 10, 1931 she married George Tuttle Brokaw, a millionaire and
prominent New York City socialite whose previous marriage, to Clare
Booth Luce, had ended in divorce.

They had one child together, Frances Brokaw.

George Tuttle Brokaw died in 1936 leaving Frances Ford Seymour widowed
at the age of 28.

Second marriage

That year, Frances Ford Brokaw was remarried (16 September 1936), to
actor Henry Fonda, at Christ Church in New York City. The couple had
two children, Jane Seymour Fonda, and Peter Fonda."
-----------------------------------------

DSH

""Leo van de Pas"" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:030901c5d21c$bb0dfae0$0300a8c0@Toshiba...

| A long time ago I was told that Australian _spoken_ officially had
become a dialect. The same person also thought that American _spoken_
often was closer to original English (I am getting into hot water?) than
what is spoken in England.
|
| Well, I read this paragraph and I wonder, do I know what she means?
and perhaps is she using the wrong word? But then with Americans you
cannot know :-)
|
| "I never knew my father's parents, who died before I was born. My
grandfather ran a printing plant and my grandmother, whom I apparently
favor, was a house wife."
|
| Surely with favor she means resemble? No need guessing who "she" is.
Spencer Hines was very close.
| Leo van de Pas
| Canberra, Australia

Gjest

Re: Languages (OT ?)

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 okt 2005 20:15:02

Dear Merilyn, Leo and others,
I don`t quite understand how We
are to know with any hope of precision whether or not American, Australian or
modern British is closer in pronunciation to Anglo Saxon, late Medieval Court
English (ie between 1400-1500 ) , Elizabethan (abt 1560- 1605) or later
forms or even of which classes it is supposed these dialects actually do derive
from. Interesting the speech of New England coastal Fishermen is not so very
different from that of the Texas Cowboy, possibly because of the extensive
migrations into the west prior to and following the American Civil War.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Languages (OT ?)

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 okt 2005 20:21:48

It is a decree from the Most High Canon of the Modern Linguists but
don't ask me exactly how they believe they know what earlier forms of
English sounded like - I vaguely recall reading that the word "ask",
for example, was originally spelled as many modern Black Americans say,
"aks". On the other hand, this would make it one of the few words with
any kind of standard spelling...I never did well in my linguistics
classes, anyway. :+/ Bronwen

Doug McDonald

Re: Languages (OT ?)

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 16 okt 2005 20:45:26

Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:
Interesting the speech of New England coastal Fishermen is not so very
different from that of the Texas Cowboy,


WHAT??? I'm a west Texan who lived for four years in Cambridge.

I assure you that cowboys and fishermen do not in the least
resemble each other in speech!

Doug McDonald

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: Languages (OT ?)

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 17 okt 2005 03:34:02

Forget that - my husband has just reminded me that it was West Virginia.
Merilyn

-------Original Message-------

From: Merilyn Pedrick
Date: 10/17/05 09:28:18
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Languages (OT ?)

Dear James
I recall reading somewhere that it is in the mountains of Kentucky (?) where
the local speech is similar to what Elizabethan English speech must have
sounded like.
Merilyn Pedrick
Aldgate, South Australia

-------Original Message-------

From: Jwc1870@aol.com
Date: 10/17/05 03:44:47
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Languages (OT ?)

Dear Merilyn, Leo and others,
I don`t quite understand how We
are to know with any hope of precision whether or not American, Australian
or
modern British is closer in pronunciation to Anglo Saxon, late Medieval
Court
English (ie between 1400-1500 ) , Elizabethan (abt 1560- 1605) or later
forms or even of which classes it is supposed these dialects actually do
derive
from. Interesting the speech of New England coastal Fishermen is not so
very
different from that of the Texas Cowboy, possibly because of the extensive
migrations into the west prior to and following the American Civil War.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: Languages (OT ?)

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 17 okt 2005 03:34:03

Dear James
I recall reading somewhere that it is in the mountains of Kentucky (?) where
the local speech is similar to what Elizabethan English speech must have
sounded like.
Merilyn Pedrick
Aldgate, South Australia

-------Original Message-------

From: Jwc1870@aol.com
Date: 10/17/05 03:44:47
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Languages (OT ?)

Dear Merilyn, Leo and others,
I don`t quite understand how We
are to know with any hope of precision whether or not American, Australian
or
modern British is closer in pronunciation to Anglo Saxon, late Medieval
Court
English (ie between 1400-1500 ) , Elizabethan (abt 1560- 1605) or later
forms or even of which classes it is supposed these dialects actually do
derive
from. Interesting the speech of New England coastal Fishermen is not so
very
different from that of the Texas Cowboy, possibly because of the extensive
migrations into the west prior to and following the American Civil War.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Languages (OT ?)

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 17 okt 2005 03:39:02

Appalachia in general -- not just either Eastern Kentucky or West
Virginia.

DSH

""Merilyn Pedrick"" <pedricks@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:4352E91A.000001.03968@MERILYNS..
| Dear James
| I recall reading somewhere that it is in the mountains of Kentucky (?)
where
| the local speech is similar to what Elizabethan English speech must
have
| sounded like.
| Merilyn Pedrick
| Aldgate, South Australia
|
| -------Original Message-------
|
| From: Jwc1870@aol.com
| Date: 10/17/05 03:44:47
| To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
| Subject: Re: Languages (OT ?)
|
| Dear Merilyn, Leo and others,
| I don`t quite understand
how We
| are to know with any hope of precision whether or not American,
Australian
| or
| modern British is closer in pronunciation to Anglo Saxon, late
Medieval
| Court
| English (ie between 1400-1500 ) , Elizabethan (abt 1560- 1605) or
later
| forms or even of which classes it is supposed these dialects actually
do
| derive
| from. Interesting the speech of New England coastal Fishermen is not
so
| very
| different from that of the Texas Cowboy, possibly because of the
extensive
| migrations into the west prior to and following the American Civil
War.
| Sincerely,
| James W Cummings
| Dixmont, Maine
USA

Scaly Lizard

Re: Languages (OT ?)

Legg inn av Scaly Lizard » 17 okt 2005 08:04:10

On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 01:32:39 +0000 (UTC), pedricks@ozemail.com.au
("Merilyn Pedrick") wrote:

Dear James
I recall reading somewhere that it is in the mountains of Kentucky (?) where
the local speech is similar to what Elizabethan English speech must have
sounded like.
Merilyn Pedrick
Aldgate, South Australia

Actually, that's what Americans call an 'urban myth'.

There is a seed of truth in any myth, though, and
the truth here is that evolution of language proceeds
slower in isolated communities than in more well-traveled
communities.

So it is true that some communities in Appalachia
(western Kentucky, Virginia and Tennessee, most of
West Virginia and parts of other states, notably southern
Ohio) might even today have local dialects which are
more similar to older forms of English.

And it's true that some of the gullah-speakers of the
Mid-Atlantic states' outer islands mimic the language
of 200 years ago, much more than modern English speech.

But there is no reasonable assumption to be made,
regarding what spoken English sounded like 400 years
ago. Old poetry can tell us much about pronunciations,
but cannot tell us how whole phonemes have undergone
changes in pronunciation. 400 years ago, "yard" would
have rhymed with "bard", as it does today, but back then
both of them would have rhymed with how we pronounce
"cared" today: <kayrd>. Yared? Bared?

The point is that English has always been a mish-mash.
Saying that this or that current dialect resembles this
or that other historical dialect is like saying that the Nile
resembles the Mississippi because they both have water.

Elizabethan English had thoroughly anglicized several
arabic words, and had preserved plenty of saxon words.
So when is the "Queen's English" writ in stone?

Even the most remote dialect of American gullah has
internalized hundereds of words from sources outside
the community, and has changed the pronunciation and
usage of many more since the community's foundation.

Pidgin is a mish-mash. Gullah is a mish-mash. And
English itself is certainly a mish-mash, for the past
22 centuries at least.

SL


-------Original Message-------

From: Jwc1870@aol.com
Date: 10/17/05 03:44:47
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Languages (OT ?)

Dear Merilyn, Leo and others,
I don`t quite understand how We
are to know with any hope of precision whether or not American, Australian
or
modern British is closer in pronunciation to Anglo Saxon, late Medieval
Court
English (ie between 1400-1500 ) , Elizabethan (abt 1560- 1605) or later
forms or even of which classes it is supposed these dialects actually do
derive
from. Interesting the speech of New England coastal Fishermen is not so
very
different from that of the Texas Cowboy, possibly because of the extensive
migrations into the west prior to and following the American Civil War.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

I been to Maine and i been to Texas, and ya'll sound
nothing alike. Migrations, schmigrations. Texan English
is distinct from the general 'southern accent' and distinct
frm the general 'mid-plains accent'. The Texas drawl is
sure as hell distinct from the Lobsterman's drawl, to my
ears at least.

SL

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